A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt) (OP)
Assalamualykum
suppose I tell you that there exist a thing which you cannot see, touch, taste, hear or feel, even with the most sensitive and advanced instruments known to man it cannot be detected and if it is standing in front of you , you can walk straight through it , also it can pass through doors and walls actually it can pass through anything.
Can such a thing exist?
And by the way I’m not talking of ghosts!
And yes such a thing does exist!
What I’m talking about is known as dark matter and nearly 70% or more of our universe is made up of dark matter!
And this is what the scientists are calming and it is result of observation and logical reasoning.
“The existence of this theoretical substance was first proposed in the 1930s by Swiss astrophysicist Fritz Zwicky.
By studying the rotation of a group of galaxies called the Coma Cluster, Zwicky calculated that the visible mass of the galaxies was 400 times less than the mass needed to explain their gravitational motion.” http://tinyurl.com/6bjjqb
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter
“These observations provide the strongest evidence yet that most of the matter in the universe is dark.”
So is it logical and rational to believe that god exists?
We know universe exists and it is about 13.7 billion years old.
Hence it must have had beginning and anything that ages and have beginning must have been non-existing and hence it was created or Caused into existence
Also there is arrow of time ie it travels in one direction only and is irreversible
So there must have been time when it was zero and as we know matter without time cannot exist and time without matter is meaningless.
The most widely accepted theory about our universe is the big bang which state that universe started with singularity but where this singularity came from?
Other theories have come up and one of it states that universe is cyclic.
In this cyclic model, two parallel orbifold planes or M-branes collide periodically in a higher dimensional space, a big crunch followed immediately by a big bang.
And this cycle is infinite and the current cycle is about 14 billions years old.
The question is if universe is infinite then how can you say current cycle is 14 billion years old since dividing infinity will give you undefined answer.
And if you say cycle, it means division And how do you define past present and future And if you say the cycle keeps adding till infinity then there must be first cycle and it had a beginning.
True Infinity can only occur if time is zero since without time there is no motion and without motion there is no matter therefore matter cannot exist for infinity.
Also the universe is flat and therefore there will be no big crunch.
There is another theory known as string theory.
Lot of time and energy as well as money has been spent on this theory but this theory has not produce a single meaningful result in 30 years and this has frustrated many scientists so much that many of them are turning against it and even calling it science fiction.
“Stanford math professor Keith Devlin talks about two new books that call into question the entire idea of string theory”
“Last summer in Aspen, Dr. Schwarz and Dr. Green (of Cambridge) cut a cake decorated with "20th Anniversary of the First Revolution Started in Aspen," as they and other theorists celebrated the anniversary of their big breakthrough. But even as they ate cake and drank wine, the string theorists admitted that after 20 years, they still did not know how to test string theory, or even what it meant.”
“Dr. Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, called string theory "a colossal failure." “
The only theory that has some observable evidence is big bang theory
As is evident some scientists are trying to present theories that eliminate the beginning and hence God can be taken out of the equation.
But no matter how hard you try you cannot avoid the beginning.
Einstein ultimately accepted to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power.”.
Since we now know universe had a beginning it must not have existed.
So the question what was there before the beginning is not correct because it implies that the cause of the beginning no longer exist after the beginning.
The correct question is what caused the beginning?
Since universe was in a state of non existence there must be something that caused it into existence.
And the obvious answer is God, but saying God is responsible is not enough.
Just as dark matter even though is undetectable but we do know that it is invisible and it has gravitational influence similarly we must describe the entity that caused the beginning.
Since time was also nonexistent this entity is outside time dimension and since matter of which our universe is made of cannot exist without time this entity is not made from this matter.
Since this entity is outside time it truly exists infinitely and not our universe as some suggest.
We need definition of god because there are dozens of religions claiming dozens of gods so which god is true?
There is only one god which fits the criteria and that is Allah (swt)
So let’s define God as in Islam.
[Quran_chapter 112]
1] SAY: "He is the One God:
2] God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being
3]"He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
4]"and there is nothing that could be compared with Him
As already stated the entity is not made of any matter contained in this universe, no false vacuum, no quantum field, no energy strings,
We cannot comprehend how Allah (swt) looks.
This is really very clever without describing how Allah (swt) looks we can still know a lot about him
Allah (swt) has at least 99 names and attributes.
Some of them are:
Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Haqq meaning
The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
In our universe there is no such thing as infinity there are things we call infinite because it is beyond our capacity to measure or count, these things may be indefinite but are not TRUE INFINITE
Because there is arrow of time and time never stops and it goes in one direction only
It is irreversible
A thing is infinite only when it is outside of time since it has no beginning and no end only such thing is infinite and only a thing or entity that is infinite i.e. it always existed can Cause beginning of our universe which is finite.
Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Awwal meaning
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Akhir meaning
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
Since Allah (swt) has no end and no beginning he is outside of time and he truly exist
He is true infinite.
Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Khaaliq meaning
The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.
We know that absolute nothing cannot exist, but something can come out of nothing
Remember when our universe never existed only Allah (swt) (entity) existed because he is TRULY INFINITE but we also know that the Allah (swt) is not part of our universe and the matter which our universe is made of, is not derived from Allah (swt) because it cannot exist without time, hence Allah (swt) created our universe out of nothing.
I must admit that I m not qualified person to make a statement such as “something can come out of nothing”
But there is one man who thinks he is qualified to make such a statement
(Perhaps the world’s most famous cosmologist) Stephen Hawking Says Universe Created from Nothing
"Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
{Chapter #21, Verse #56}
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
(Chapter #2, Verse #117)
(Truly Allah (swt) alone is greatest and all possible praises to him)
Allah (swt) is also known as Az-Zaahir meaning
The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.
Allah (swt) is outside space and time
Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Mateen meaning
The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.
Since Allah (swt) is infinite his power is also infinite
Now it has became evident and can be reasonably concluded that only an entity such as Allah (swt) is capable of creating our universe.
I would like to share some interesting verses form Quran regarding creation
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? [Al-Quraan 21:30]
“general relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity.”
“If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.
WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.”
Professor Joseph Silk
Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford, United Kingdom
Joseph Silk: No. We do not know whether the Universe is finite or not. To give you an example, imagine the geometry of the Universe in two dimensions as a plane. It is flat, and a plane is normally infinite. But you can take a sheet of paper [an 'infinite' sheet of paper] and you can roll it up and make a cylinder, and you can roll the cylinder again and make a torus [like the shape of a doughnut]. The surface of the torus is also spatially flat, but it is finite. So you have two possibilities for a flat Universe: one infinite, like a plane, and one finite, like a torus, which is also flat.
The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfill it
{Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #104}
Allah-o-akhbar!
now if you do open up to the idea that may be god exist and Allah (swt ) indeed is true and only one god capable of creating our universe than another set of questions arises,
That I will try to answer in my next post. Inshallah
(All the true things I have said are from Allah (swt) and any mistake or unintentional wrong information I may have given is from me and I ask his forgiveness. Allah (swt) alone knows true meaning of everything)
Last edited by Muhammad; 08-07-2008 at 10:26 AM.
Reason: I edited it for you :)
This makes no sense. How does one even 'work for seeing God'? Either God can be successfully demonstrated to exist by logic and/or by science or God cannot. It really is as simple as that. This just an excuse to not give reasoning.
Everything that is created has a creator. God = creator.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Almighty Allah SWT will not show you his attributes until you work for it. Would you pay someone for doing 'NO WORK'.
Do you really think its justified to pay someone who sits on his backside and does nothing all day as opposed to someone who goes out working hard all day.
Allah SWT wants to see some return for all the things he has provided us. You give Allah SWT a hand he will extend and arm, if you come to Allah SWT Walking he will come to you running.
Which God should I work for, and how should I go about working for Him? There is no way to verify the existence of the Islamic God.
I have no problem referring to that which began the universe or existed prior to the universe as God, however, I don't see any reason to believe that this God is merciful, powerful or many of the other attributes given to the Islamic God.
I have no problem referring to that which began the universe or existed prior to the universe as God, however, I don't see any reason to believe that this God is merciful, powerful or many of the other attributes given to the Islamic God.
i see...
well if you was to accept there is a god. Then you will know that the last and final message sent to mankind was that of the Quran and Muhammad was the last and final prophet.
Within the Quran and hadith (narrations of our prophet) there are both many verses in the quran and within the hadith which highlight the above attributes of Allah.
heres just a simple example theres numerous and endless examples im sure i or any other member can bring.
From Anas, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:
"Allah the Almighty has said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and hope in Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds in the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I shall forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with an earthful of sins and were you then to face Me, without having associated anything with Me, I shall grant you an earthful of pardon.'"
[Recorded by Al-Tirmidhi, who said that it is a good and sound hadith]
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Everything that is created has a creator. God = creator.
Pretty logical, no?
There is nothing incorrect about a statement which asserts that everything that is created has a creator. However, it is not valid in this instance. It has yet to be demonstrated that what you are referring to as 'created' in this instanced is in fact - a creation. We have no reason to believe the universe was created, therefore your argument is moot.
Moreover "Everything that is created has a creator" does not necessitate that God is the creator. At least God as you assume.
well if you was to accept there is a god. Then you will know that the last and final message sent to mankind was that of the Quran and Muhammad was the last and final prophet.
This is a non-sequitor. That is the second statement (then you will know...) does not by necessity follow from the first (if you accept there is a god). The existance of a god does not mean that the god you (or I or anyone else worships) is actually the the god that exists. Proof that one's god is THE god has to be more than just a claim to having received revelation from God. If I was an atheist your proofs would mean nothing to me, for they are not a rational argument at all, but one based on solely on affect.
Within the Quran and hadith (narrations of our prophet) there are both many verses in the quran and within the hadith which highlight the above attributes of Allah.
heres just a simple example theres numerous and endless examples im sure i or any other member can bring.
From Anas, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:
"Allah the Almighty has said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and hope in Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds in the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I shall forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with an earthful of sins and were you then to face Me, without having associated anything with Me, I shall grant you an earthful of pardon.'"
[Recorded by Al-Tirmidhi, who said that it is a good and sound hadith]
None of that means squat if Allah is a god of human construction rather than the god who truly exists. If you are trying to construct a "rational argument" for belief in Allah, you should realize that you cannot use the product of Allah to make that argument to one who is only willing to accept the existence of a god, not necessarily your god. And that isn't meant as an attack on Allah or even your belief in Allah, but only a critique of the type of "proof" you are trying to present.
This thread is yet another to appear that highlights the massive disparity between what one group regards as "rational", "logical" or "proof", and what everyone else thinks.
Those three are probably the most frequently misused words regularly to appear on the forum.
If you are trying to construct a "rational argument" for belief in Allah, you should realize that you cannot use the product of Allah to make that argument
point taken on board.
the phrasing of the first bit i see was not right.
Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.
if i anyone was to make some new device they would teach someone else how exactly to use it, its purpose and so on in a manual. So any other person not familiar with the device can pick up the manual and figure ot everything there is to know.
The same way if a god exists don't you think that God would have left us a manual and an example to live by. Rather than everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions.
It is with this i present to you the noble quran the manual sent by Allah to the whole of mankind. Within it there are numerous vverses calling on Man to look at his signs within creation and how perfect this world and universe has been created.
i invite and implore you to study and read this manual, this book of guidance sent to mankind.
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What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.
"O you who believe, whoever of you becomes a rebel against his deen (know that in his place) Allah will bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers, harsh towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and not fearing the blame of anyone who blames."
(Qur'an, Al-Maidah 5:54)
Member of - LI's MTL™crew (Marriage thread lovers)-
Anyway the fact of the matter is if a God exists then there must be a source of guidance and a way of living which has been instructed.
if i anyone was to make some new device they would teach someone else how exactly to use it, its purpose and so on in a manual. So any other person not familiar with the device can pick up the manual and figure ot everything there is to know.
The same way if a god exists don't you think that God would have left us a manual and an example to live by. Rather than everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions.
Only if that god were to care about his creation. I happen to believe that to be true of God, and therefore believe he has given us a manual to guide us, but that is a product of my belief, not proof that my belief is true.
The Greeks you will recall (and many others as well: the Inca, Maya, Vikings, Zulu, Maori, Korowai, Dani, native Hawaiians, Amayran, Mapuche, Apache, Anuit, Celts, Saxons) have believed in gods with entirely different natures; ones who didn't provide manuals and some who didn't even provide revelations. In fact the opposite of what you suggest seems to be common among animistic religions and those which emphasize the importance of shamans. Yet those groups still accomplish what you propose, that is they avoid the problems of everyone and anyone doing as they wished without being taken to account of thier actions -- given the moral decay I see present in so much of both the Christian and Isalmic worlds, perhaps they do so even better than those places where it is accepted that manuals from some sort of God have been revealed.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 07-26-2008 at 08:33 PM.
Ignorance is not an excuse in this day and age. You all have computers and internet connection and are smart enough to use these devices. How can you be so stupid and believe an intelligent creature is behind it all.
What if God doesn't care about the actions of humans, there wouldn't be any need in sending a source of guidance in that case.
God has sent prophets and His guidance, even though everybody won't agree on them. Nonetheless, prophets and guidance that God sent through them is there.
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).
Dark Matter is completely irrelevant to any of this, so I will just skip to the points that actually have a point
It is perfectly relevant, it is lack of understand on your part to think so.
The point is…
Whenever god is mentioned people like you jump and say there is no empirical evidence for existence of god.
Dark matter is completely undetectable by any instrument known to man it existence is based simply on logical conclusion and yet it is unanimously accepted by majority of scientists.
Oh yeah I forgot to mention DARK ENERGY …..
19:40 23 May 2008
“Some had hoped it might be just an illusion. But it looks like dark energy is real and here to stay”
AND THE EVEDENCE FOR IT IS BASED ON?????
“In 1998, astronomers found that distant supernovae were dimmer, and thus farther away, than expected. This suggested that the expansion of the universe is accelerating – and "dark energy" was named as the culprit.”
“Since then, astronomers have struggled to explain what dark energy actually is” http://tinyurl.com/6h49hl
Now is this what is called testable, empirical evidence?
Double standards?
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
, you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang
.
Where did I make a statement that there was nothing before big bang?
Either it’s your wrong assumption or it is deliberate attempt to mislead.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Albert Einstein was a scientific pantheist. I do not know why you are using him as a recommend concerning evidence for the existence of Allah.
Just because if I agree with him on some of his belief does not mean that I have to subscribe to his whole belief.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
. We have excellent reason to believe that there was something prior to the Big Bang. .
The only theory that has empirical evidence to support is big bang and you can go only as far as singularity which is supported by the holy Quran.
Before that no evidence will be forth coming because of cosmic amnesia
All the other theory that exist other than big bang are mere conjuncture and speculation and even science fiction, there is no evidence for their support.
What scientists are doing is inventing the equations to suit their assumptions.
You see…
4 dimensions are not enough to know what was there before big bang so let’s add 6 more dimensions…the answer is not what is expected. Ok let make it 26 dimensions…..
The answer is still not what is expected, never mind.
You see the fundamental particle from which our universe is made is not spherical or point like but rather made of very very tiny tiny strings… just like guitar strings (Long live Rolling Stones)..
Yes you have heard it right! And there is more to it.
And these strings vibrate (may be to one of their favorite song of Rolling Stones)
Just like guitar string but are full of energy and so they sometime curl and form atoms or join together and may create extra dimensions and then universes are created not one two or three but many many many (this was actual result predicted by this theory)
You have just been introduced to string theory the latest and greatest theory which is supposed to be single unifying all, theory to explain everything yes everything.
Evidence be dammed, at least it will give the answer that we want!
“Peter Woit, a mathematician at Columbia University, has challenged the entire string-theory”
“String theory, he avers, has become a form of science fiction.”
Since this universe was in a state of non-existence - there must have been something that caused it to exist. The intellectual non-answer is not God because we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists. We only have attempts to file in holes. Asserting that God is the answer is an intellectual dead-end and supports the idea that we should be satisfied with not understanding.
Regarding evidence you will have to wait for my next post.
Believing in god does not mean intellectual dead- end, at least not in Islam
You only have to look at history when Europe was in dark ages Islam was having its golden period and science was thriving.
Today the situation is different because I think we Muslims are not practicing Islam as we should.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
To which we have no evidence for. We might as well be describing the invisible pink unicorn. It would have exactly the same impact and effect for humanity.
Well go ahead describe me a pink unicorn, tell me its power, its ability, give me references
And why it should be logically be responsible for our creation.
Go ahead tickle my neurons.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
You have provided no reason to believe that God exists much less the Islamic rendition.
And you have not read my post without prejudice.
Well, you have infinite amount of time to come up with infinite number of theories with infinite numbers of results
Good luck.
Whenever god is mentioned people like you jump and say there is no empirical evidence for existence of god.
Dark matter is completely undetectable by any instrument known to man it existence is based simply on logical conclusion and yet it is unanimously accepted by majority of scientists.
Dark matter is not comparable to the existence of God.
Moreover, there is observational evidence behind Dark Matter.
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Now is this what is called testable, empirical evidence?
Double standards?
Your analysis of Dark Matter and dark energy is far too short to account for the complexities and research that those who study it might go into.
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Where did I make a statement that there was nothing before big bang?
Either it’s your wrong assumption or it is deliberate attempt to mislead.
Read it again, ajazz.
I said that you didn't believe there was anything before the Big Bang. I quote: "you do not even believe that there was 'nothing' before the Big Bang "
Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
The only theory that has empirical evidence to support is big bang and you can go only as far as singularity which is supported by the holy Quran.
Before that no evidence will be forth coming because of cosmic amnesia
The Qu'ran only supports the Big Bang if you interpret it in a specific way. It is no surprise that both Muslims and Christians claim their faith supports science. This is exactly what I meant earlier when I said that religion adapts to scientific understanding.
You did not hear anyone claim the specifics of the origin of the universe prior to our understanding of the Big Bang.
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Believing in god does not mean intellectual dead- end, at least not in Islam
You only have to look at history when Europe was in dark ages Islam was having its golden period and science was thriving.
Would an Islamic state accept a scientific proposition which undermined the Qu'ran's validity?
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Well go ahead describe me a pink unicorn, tell me its power, its ability, give me references
And why it should be logically be responsible for our creation.
Go ahead tickle my neurons.
I don't need to.
You describing a 'God' irrespective of details and specifics still has exactly the same effect for humanity as me describing the pink unicorn. Your irrelevant conjecture on God's attributes is not scientific, does not enhance our understanding of the universe and has no value for humanity whatsoever.
I find Theology a tired and utterly uninteresting subject.
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
you deny his existence and ridicule him yet no bolt of lightening has struck you down i think this is merciful enough.
Your standard of 'merciful' is very suspect. Are you implying that God not being completely intolerant to all criticism somehow ensures his merciful nature?
Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I know I'm being pedantic, but that's exactly the same type of reasoning theists use in reference to their own beliefs.
I know I'm being pedantic, but that's exactly the same type of reasoning theists use in reference to their own beliefs.
I know.
Regrettably, the assertion 'something does not come from nothing' does not demonstrate God. And 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' also does not demonstrate God.
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