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A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt)

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    A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt) (OP)


    Assalamualykum



    suppose I tell you that there exist a thing which you cannot see, touch, taste, hear or feel, even with the most sensitive and advanced instruments known to man it cannot be detected and if it is standing in front of you , you can walk straight through it , also it can pass through doors and walls actually it can pass through anything.
    Can such a thing exist?
    And by the way I’m not talking of ghosts!


    And yes such a thing does exist!

    What I’m talking about is known as dark matter and nearly 70% or more of our universe is made up of dark matter!

    And this is what the scientists are calming and it is result of observation and logical reasoning.


    “The existence of this theoretical substance was first proposed in the 1930s by Swiss astrophysicist Fritz Zwicky.

    By studying the rotation of a group of galaxies called the Coma Cluster, Zwicky calculated that the visible mass of the galaxies was 400 times less than the mass needed to explain their gravitational motion.”
    http://tinyurl.com/6bjjqb


    NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter
    “These observations provide the strongest evidence yet that most of the matter in the universe is dark.”

    http://tinyurl.com/emvb5


    So is it logical and rational to believe that god exists?



    We know universe exists and it is about 13.7 billion years old.

    Hence it must have had beginning and anything that ages and have beginning must have been non-existing and hence it was created or Caused into existence
    Also there is arrow of time ie it travels in one direction only and is irreversible
    So there must have been time when it was zero and as we know matter without time cannot exist and time without matter is meaningless.

    The most widely accepted theory about our universe is the big bang which state that universe started with singularity but where this singularity came from?

    Other theories have come up and one of it states that universe is cyclic.
    In this cyclic model, two parallel orbifold planes or M-branes collide periodically in a higher dimensional space, a big crunch followed immediately by a big bang.
    And this cycle is infinite and the current cycle is about 14 billions years old.

    The question is if universe is infinite then how can you say current cycle is 14 billion years old since dividing infinity will give you undefined answer.

    And if you say cycle, it means division And how do you define past present and future And if you say the cycle keeps adding till infinity then there must be first cycle and it had a beginning.
    True Infinity can only occur if time is zero since without time there is no motion and without motion there is no matter therefore matter cannot exist for infinity.
    Also the universe is flat and therefore there will be no big crunch.


    There is another theory known as string theory.
    Lot of time and energy as well as money has been spent on this theory but this theory has not produce a single meaningful result in 30 years and this has frustrated many scientists so much that many of them are turning against it and even calling it science fiction.

    “Stanford math professor Keith Devlin talks about two new books that call into question the entire idea of string theory”

    http://tinyurl.com/67vyv6

    “Last summer in Aspen, Dr. Schwarz and Dr. Green (of Cambridge) cut a cake decorated with "20th Anniversary of the First Revolution Started in Aspen," as they and other theorists celebrated the anniversary of their big breakthrough. But even as they ate cake and drank wine, the string theorists admitted that after 20 years, they still did not know how to test string theory, or even what it meant.

    “Dr. Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, called string theory "a colossal failure." “

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/science/07stri.html


    The only theory that has some observable evidence is big bang theory

    As is evident some scientists are trying to present theories that eliminate the beginning and hence God can be taken out of the equation.

    But no matter how hard you try you cannot avoid the beginning.



    Einstein ultimately accepted to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power.”.


    Since we now know universe had a beginning it must not have existed.
    So the question what was there before the beginning is not correct because it implies that the cause of the beginning no longer exist after the beginning.

    The correct question is what caused the beginning?

    Since universe was in a state of non existence there must be something that caused it into existence.

    And the obvious answer is God, but saying God is responsible is not enough.

    Just as dark matter even though is undetectable but we do know that it is invisible and it has gravitational influence similarly we must describe the entity that caused the beginning.

    Since time was also nonexistent this entity is outside time dimension and since matter of which our universe is made of cannot exist without time this entity is not made from this matter.

    Since this entity is outside time it truly exists infinitely and not our universe as some suggest.


    We need definition of god because there are dozens of religions claiming dozens of gods so which god is true?

    There is only one god which fits the criteria and that is Allah (swt)

    So let’s define God as in Islam.


    [Quran_chapter 112]

    1] SAY: "He is the One God:
    2] God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being
    3]"He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
    4]"and there is nothing that could be compared with Him

    As already stated the entity is not made of any matter contained in this universe, no false vacuum, no quantum field, no energy strings,
    We cannot comprehend how Allah (swt) looks.

    This is really very clever without describing how Allah (swt) looks we can still know a lot about him
    Allah (swt) has at least 99 names and attributes.

    Some of them are:

    Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Haqq meaning

    The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.

    In our universe there is no such thing as infinity there are things we call infinite because it is beyond our capacity to measure or count, these things may be indefinite but are not TRUE INFINITE
    Because there is arrow of time and time never stops and it goes in one direction only
    It is irreversible
    A thing is infinite only when it is outside of time since it has no beginning and no end only such thing is infinite and only a thing or entity that is infinite i.e. it always existed can Cause beginning of our universe which is finite.

    Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Awwal meaning

    The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

    Allah (swt) is also known as Al-'Akhir meaning

    The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.

    Since Allah (swt) has no end and no beginning he is outside of time and he truly exist
    He is true infinite.

    Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Khaaliq meaning

    The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.

    We know that absolute nothing cannot exist, but something can come out of nothing
    Remember when our universe never existed only Allah (swt) (entity) existed because he is TRULY INFINITE but we also know that the Allah (swt) is not part of our universe and the matter which our universe is made of, is not derived from Allah (swt) because it cannot exist without time, hence Allah (swt) created our universe out of nothing.

    I must admit that I m not qualified person to make a statement such as “something can come out of nothing”

    But there is one man who thinks he is qualified to make such a statement
    (Perhaps the world’s most famous cosmologist)
    Stephen Hawking Says Universe Created from Nothing

    "Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

    http://tinyurl.com/2lt8bt


    He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
    {Chapter #21, Verse #56}

    To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
    (Chapter #2, Verse #117)




    (Truly Allah (swt) alone is greatest and all possible praises to him)



    Allah (swt) is also known as Az-Zaahir meaning

    The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.

    Allah (swt) is outside space and time

    Allah (swt) is also known as Al-Mateen meaning

    The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.

    Since Allah (swt) is infinite his power is also infinite

    Now it has became evident and can be reasonably concluded that only an entity such as Allah (swt) is capable of creating our universe.


    I would like to share some interesting verses form Quran regarding creation




    Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? [Al-Quraan 21:30]


    “general relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity.”

    http://tinyurl.com/38s5gt


    “If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.

    WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.”

    http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html


    Professor Joseph Silk
    Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford, United Kingdom

    Joseph Silk: No. We do not know whether the Universe is finite or not. To give you an example, imagine the geometry of the Universe in two dimensions as a plane. It is flat, and a plane is normally infinite. But you can take a sheet of paper [an 'infinite' sheet of paper] and you can roll it up and make a cylinder, and you can roll the cylinder again and make a torus [like the shape of a doughnut]. The surface of the torus is also spatially flat, but it is finite. So you have two possibilities for a flat Universe: one infinite, like a plane, and one finite, like a torus, which is also flat.

    http://tinyurl.com/5lj29q

    The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfill it
    {Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #104}

    Allah-o-akhbar!


    now if you do open up to the idea that may be god exist and Allah (swt ) indeed is true and only one god capable of creating our universe than another set of questions arises,
    That I will try to answer in my next post. Inshallah

    (All the true things I have said are from Allah (swt) and any mistake or unintentional wrong information I may have given is from me and I ask his forgiveness. Allah (swt) alone knows true meaning of everything)
    Last edited by Muhammad; 08-07-2008 at 10:26 AM. Reason: I edited it for you :)

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    Re: A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt)

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    I know.

    Regrettably, the assertion 'something does not come from nothing' does not demonstrate God. And 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' also does not demonstrate God.
    Well, 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' does not demonstrate anything that the idiom is used for. Semantics... they should save it for advertising.
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    Re: A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt)

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    Dark matter is not comparable to the existence of God.


    That’s right nothing is comparable to Allah (swt)

    Go read my post carefully again you are getting confused and also contradicting your self.

    From your earlier post you said

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    The intellectual non-answer is not God because we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists. .
    And now you say

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    Wow!

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    Moreover, there is observational evidence behind Dark Matter

    Most scientists agree that most of the matter in the universe is dark. Dark matter, which is undetectable through direct observation, can only be inferred because of its effects on the matter that we can see

    http://www.physorg.com/news110795864.html

    The key word is inferred and not observational evidence, get it?



    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    Arguably, we do have evidence.
    Where it is? Invisible like dark matter


    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    The Qu'ran only supports the Big Bang if you interpret it in a specific way. .
    Yusuf Ali Translation

    Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?


    Translation Pickthal

    Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?


    Translation M. Khan


    Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?




    No interpretation is needed the meaning is crystal clear.




    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    Would an Islamic state accept a scientific proposition which undermined the Qu'ran's validity?

    There is not a single statement in the holy Quran which goes against ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACT





    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    I don't need to
    Well you don’t need to or you can’t?



    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    You describing a 'God' irrespective of details and specifics still has exactly the same effect for humanity as me describing the pink unicorn
    You don’t get things right do you? The first time or the second time

    It’s not my description, it is Allah (swt) himself describing in the holy Quran

    Don’t know about you but has effect on lots of people that why we are more than 1.5 billion Muslims all over the world and still growing, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    Your irrelevant conjecture on God's attributes is not scientific, does not enhance our understanding of the universe and has no value for humanity whatsoever.


    “A significant number of stars in the sky, such as Aldebaran and Altair, and astronomical terms such as alhidade, azimuth, and almucantar, are still today recognized with their Arabic names.[5]

    Islam and astronomy

    Islam has affected astronomy directly and indirectly. A major impetus for the flowering of astronomy in Islam came from religious observances, which presented an assortment of problems in mathematical astronomy, specifically in spherical geometry.[1]

    Islamic attitude towards astronomy

    Islam advised Muslims to find ways of using the stars. The Qur'an says: "And it is He who ordained the stars for you that you may be guided thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea."[7] On the basis of this advice Muslim began to find better observational and navigational instruments, thus most navigational stars today have Arabic names.[1]

    In the 9th century, the eldest Banū Mūsā brother, Ja'far Muhammad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir, made significant contributions to astrophysics and celestial mechanics. He was the first to hypothesize that the heavenly bodies and celestial spheres are subject to the same laws of physics as Earth, unlike the ancients who believed that the celestial spheres followed their own set of physical laws different from that of Earth.[42] In his Astral Motion and The Force of Attraction, Muhammad ibn Musa also proposed that there is a force of attraction between heavenly bodies,[43] foreshadowing Newton's law of universal gravitation.[44]



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy
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    Re: A rational argument for belief in Allah (swt)

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    That’s right nothing is comparable to Allah (swt)
    By comparable, I meant as in how people understand it and why people accept it. Dark Matter is not take on faith value.

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    Go read my post carefully again you are getting confused and also contradicting your self.
    Not at all. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but equally not being evidence of absence does not entail actual positive evidence. So the two statements do indeed co-exist. I'll explain further.

    We have no evidence that God exists.
    But this absence of evidence does not equate for positive evidence against the existence of God. Absence of evidence is simply that - lacking.

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    Most scientists agree that most of the matter in the universe is dark. Dark matter, which is undetectable through direct observation, can only be inferred because of its effects on the matter that we can see
    Do a google search and type in "Observation evidence of Dark Matter".

    Approximately the first 4 of the 5 links I noticed all talk about it.

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    Where it is? Invisible like dark matter
    Why are you responding to everything I say out of context?

    I made my case directly blow my claim that evidence does exist. Here it is again, for your sake:

    Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Moreover if such does not constitute as evidence, it does not necessitate nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    No interpretation is needed the meaning is crystal clear.
    No it isn't.

    Declaring the heaven and the earths as united has nothing to do with anything regarding the Big Bang. And the statement everything coming from water is factually incorrect.

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    There is not a single statement in the holy Quran which goes against ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACT
    Again, you didn't answer the question:

    Would an Islamic state accept a scientific proposition which undermined the Qu'ran's validity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    Well you don’t need to or you can’t?
    I don't need to.

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    You don’t get things right do you? The first time or the second time

    It’s not my description, it is Allah (swt) himself describing in the holy Quran
    Or, of course if the Qu'ran is not true and if God does not exist - it is nothing.

    format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
    Don’t know about you but has effect on lots of people that why we are more than 1.5 billion Muslims all over the world and still growing, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
    What criteria are you using to determine Islam as the worlds fastest growing religion?

    Moreover, appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy - not a good argument.
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