The covenant with the Jews wasn't eternal [According to the OT!]

**- Qatada -** · 10-05-2008

The Jews were God's chosen people - if they fulfilled the conditions He ordered them to follow, if they did - then He would continue to bless them, but if they didn't than He would abandon them and raise up a new ummah [nation]. This fact is mentioned in their own book

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah* 31:31)

The new covenant which is binding upon not only the nation of Israel, but in fact all the nations of the world is the covenant which Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has been brought with, namely Islam.

*Jeremiah is from the Old Testament - which Jews accept.

**mkh4JC** · 10-07-2008

Originally Posted by Chuck

Promise was not for the Jews, in the Bible it is promise for the "seed" of Abraham (pbuh). Seed means here progeny and followers of Abraham (pbuh).

The promise does actually concern the Jews. God made that abundantly clear in Genesis:

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generation for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis: 17: 7

Also here:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12: 2-3.

It is through Jesus Christ that all of the nations of the earth have been blessed, and salvation has been made available to the Gentiles.

Also consider these few scriptures:

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Issac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Genesis 17: 18-19.

As I illustrated earlier, God has not abandoned the Jewish people in any wise.

**barney** · 10-07-2008

Remember Fedos that Ishmael was the one on the sacrificial alter not Issac!

**doorster** · 10-07-2008

Remember Fedos that Ishmael was the one on the sacrificial alter not Issac!

sarcastic insults or just innocent fun and games? (maybe barney has become a believer with that exclamation mark)

**Chuck** · 10-07-2008

I did not say it doesn't concern Jews, but as your quote of Bible shows it is a general promise for the seed of Abraham (pbuh). This was a response to barney's post. If you think that promise only included Jews then you can answer him on his question.

As far as Jews are concerned and where God has taken away Kingdom of God from them, that is entirely different topic.

Originally Posted by Fedos

The promise does actually concern the Jews. God made that abundantly clear in Genesis:

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generation for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis: 17: 7

Also here:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12: 2-3.

It is through Jesus Christ that all of the nations of the earth have been blessed, and salvation has been made available to the Gentiles.

Also consider these few scriptures:

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Issac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Genesis 17: 18-19.

As I illustrated earlier, God has not abandoned the Jewish people in any wise.

**barney** · 10-07-2008

Originally Posted by doorster

sarcastic insults or just innocent fun and games? (maybe barney has become a believer with that exclamation mark)

I was reminding him that this was the islamic perspective.

About 60% of my stuff is sarcasm admittadly, but this bit wasnt

**Oleander** · 10-07-2008

Genesis 17:20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

>>>Is the above verse a prophecy, or a promise?

**barney** · 10-07-2008

Well its Allah speaking, so that would be a promise. A prophecy is where you are predicting what will happen.
Allah wouldnt predict, he would know.

**Chuck** · 10-08-2008

Originally Posted by Oleander

Genesis 17:20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

>>>Is the above verse a prophecy, or a promise?

Both. First & last part is promise "I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly" "will make him a great nation"

Mid part prophecy "He shall become the father of twelve princes"

**ASeeker** · 10-09-2008

If I say, "it's raining cats and dogs" does everyone expect our furry friends to start falling from the sky? There is literalism and downright silliness.

**Oleander** · 10-09-2008

If I say, "it's raining cats and dogs" does everyone expect our furry friends to start falling from the sky? There is literalism and downright silliness.

>>>Can you explain a little more?

**barney** · 10-09-2008

Originally Posted by ASeeker

If I say, "it's raining cats and dogs" does everyone expect our furry friends to start falling from the sky? There is literalism and downright silliness.

Yahweh dos'nt promise felines and canines as inclement weather.
He promises that noone will have superiority over the jews or enslave them. He's a God.
He has thus either broken his covenant or he is as divine as David Son Of God Koresh

Yahweh has multiply and excessively broken all his promises on a continual basis. In 1943 a group of jews in Auswich camp put god on trial. They charged him with breaking the covenent. The procecuters were real Judges, the accusers jews and the defendents Rabbi's.
As they waited to die, they made judgement on God.
He had broken the covenet and given a new one to Germany.

**Grace Seeker** · 10-10-2008

It appears we have forgotten the orginal post:

Originally Posted by - Qatada -

The Jews were God's chosen people - if they fulfilled the conditions He ordered them to follow, if they did - then He would continue to bless them, but if they didn't than He would abandon them and raise up a new ummah [nation]. This fact is mentioned in their own book

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah* 31:31)

The new covenant which is binding upon not only the nation of Israel, but in fact all the nations of the world is the covenant which Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has been brought with, namely Islam.

*Jeremiah is from the Old Testament - which Jews accept.

There is much about what Qatada writes that I agree with, though I think he incorrectly assigns this new covenant to Muhammad. Let's take a look at what follows from this verse:

Jeremiah 31

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Notice how the new covenant will be different from the old covenant. In the new covenant the law is to be in people's minds and written on their hearts. Does this describe Islam? Well, in the sense that one is to submit to Allah it does. But, it also seems that what the nature of that submission is to be is found spelled out in the Qur'an and Hadith. That is why even here we are told that if you want an answer to something you have to consult an Islamic scholar, because people can't just know on their own. The answer is not in their minds or their hearts, it is written down somewhere.

But, is there a religion that looks not to a book, but to the heart? I suggest to you that this is indeed what Jesus can proclaiming. And this very passage is explained in the New Testament (so called because it is a witness to a new covenant God established in Jesus) book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 8

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

**Oleander** · 10-11-2008

Grace>>But, is there a religion that looks not to a book, but to the heart? I suggest to you that this is indeed what Jesus can proclaiming. And this very passage is explained in the New Testament (so called because it is a witness to a new covenant God established in Jesus) book of Hebrews:

>>>Jesus was a Jew. So, when he said: the covenant will be taken away from the Jews, and giving to another people, he means another not the same except if you can prove he was not a jew!

Now why it's Ismael turn?

God promise of "great nation" only to 3 people: Abraham, Ismael, and Isaac.

The first and the last, get thier own nation, how about the second one, where is it?

**Grace Seeker** · 10-11-2008

I think the new covenant is more than the transference of the old covenant to a new group of people, but a totally new nature to the covenant itself. The scriptues themselves indicate that it is a covenant based on the heart given to God as being the central aspect of it. The keeping of a certain set of behaviors arise out of the heart directed toward God, they are not an end in and of themselves.

As far as being a great nation, I think that was already true for Ishmael even without it being connected to any particular covenant.