The covenant with the Jews wasn't eternal [According to the OT!]

yeah, the Jeremiah is in the old testament in the bible...1


i dont understand what you trying to explained...can u make it clearly...so i can understand clearly... :blind::X

Removing the words "House of Israel" really makes the difference. Based on that , any religion past present and future could claim that theirs is the "new covenant".

The problem with the old one is that that wasnt fullfilled either!
The Torah says that Yaweh would make the jews as numerous as the stars.
Last time i checked there wasnt 15 trillion jews and counting! Merely one billionth of that amount.

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -

The new covenant which is binding upon not only the nation of Israel, but in fact all the nations of the world is the covenant which Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has been brought with, namely Islam.

Or Christianity! The whole basis of which is such a covenant.

The whole concept is deeply associated with Jewish messianic and eschatological ideas. Christians consider Jesus to be the mediator of such a "new covenant" ('New Covenant' and 'New Testament' are interchangeable in this context) in preparation for such an "end of days", which - with apologies to Christian readers - would seem ever less plausible the longer we go without seeing Judgement Day.

However, the idea this refers to Mohammed and Islam is even less plausible; whatever else Mohammed was he was not a 'messiah'.

God did not renege his covenant with the Jewish people. As it was stated, the New Testament is indeed the New Covenant that God was referring to, it's just that God has largely placed a veil over the Jewish people's eyes, and that is why they haven't as whole accepted Jesus as their Messiah, until the fullness of the Gentiles or the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Here's some scriptures for you to mull over:

'I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear until this day.

And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

...

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

...

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans: 11: 1-12, 15, 25-27.

The fulness of the Gentiles will be come in after the rapture of the church, and it is during the 7 year tribulation that God's focus will shift back towards the Jewish people. And Abraham's seed is as numerous as the stars, when you factor in the many Gentiles who have accepted Christ in Christianity's two thousand year history. Those who have accepted Christ are Jews in spirit.

106,456,367,669 people who have ever lived
http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/How...edonEarth.aspx

Thats assuming that cavemen were jews and everyone who has ever lived is a jew ("in spirit!").

Now how many stars in the universe?

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM75BS1VED_index_0.html
10000000000000000000000000 Stars
106,456,367,669 People

So even if every human ever was a jew then one thousand trillion times as many stars are estimated in the universe.

Rational response? The people who looked into the desert sky on a starry night and saw tens of thousands of stars were impressed and thus had their god communicate this to them.

Unless God intends to pile Jewish human beings hundreds of millions of miles thick upon every face of the earth, this is a covenent that he has broken.

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

106,456,367,669 people who have ever lived
http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/How...edonEarth.aspx

Thats assuming that cavemen were jews and everyone who has ever lived is a jew ("in spirit!").

Now how many stars in the universe?

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEM75BS1VED_index_0.html
10000000000000000000000000 Stars
106,456,367,669 People

So even if every human ever was a jew then one thousand trillion times as many stars are estimated in the universe.

Rational response? The people who looked into the desert sky on a starry night and saw tens of thousands of stars were impressed and thus had their god communicate this to them.

Unless God intends to pile Jewish human beings hundreds of millions of miles thick upon every face of the earth, this is a covenent that he has broken.

I see what I wrote there. Even I took it too literally. It has not been broken though. There hasn't been trillions of people who have ever lived on the earth, God was just saying that Abraham's seed would be vast. God just used an illustration to communicate that to Abraham. Ancient people's numbering systems had not advanced to where ours is today. If God would have told Abraham that his seed would be in the hundreds of millions he wouldn't have understood. That's what I should have said. I did know this. I'm not that ignorant, I was just in a rush to prove a point.

format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos

I see what I wrote there. Even I took it too literally. It has not been broken though. There hasn't been trillions of people who have ever lived on the earth, God was just saying that Abraham's seed would be vast. God just used an illustration to communicate that to Abraham. Ancient people's numbering systems had not advanced to where ours is today. If God would have told Abraham that his seed would be in the hundreds of millions he wouldn't have understood. That's what I should have said. I did know this. I'm not that ignorant, I was just in a rush to prove a point.

Well OK, I'm heavily into non-literalism meself.

Lets take it as metaphorical. God was saying there would be vast amounts of decendents.
To measure something we have to have a baseline. There are currently 13.2 million jews and 6,700,000,000 people on the earth.
So the vast jewish nation raised up beyond all others amounts now to 0.2% of the population. This is its highest ever level even before the holocaust.

Oh and talking of the holocaust, that kinda broke his covenant as well. No nation will ever make them slaves or be able to harm them again.
Guess the Nazi's skipped that bit.

I'd say that that could apply to any number of situations, past, present or future.
Having said that I would say that, cos im a snarky old sceptic.

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

The Torah says that Yaweh would make the jews as numerous as the stars.
Last time i checked there wasnt 15 trillion jews and counting! Merely one billionth of that amount.

You took it soooo literally....

format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian

You took it soooo literally....

lulz

Well theres an arguement for taking something literally.
As i say, back in whenever BC looking at the stars and promising something like that would be perfectly feasable.

Bring about the invention of massive telescopes, and that changes things slightly.
So my point is this is another arguement for inaccuracy in the bible.

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

Well theres an arguement for taking something literally.
As i say, back in whenever BC looking at the stars and promising something like that would be perfectly feasable.

Bring about the invention of massive telescopes, and that changes things slightly.
So my point is this is another arguement for inaccuracy in the bible.

Seems like a figure of speech to me. When a person states that something is as numerous as the stars I do not believe they are literally suggesting that the number is indeed equivalent to the number of stars in the universe. That number could be infinite as far as we know.

I suppose as this was a statement attributed to God then the number should be seen as literal, but I don't really assume that either. During the ancient period, what number could the ancients even understand? How high of a number I mean. An expression such as "as numerous as the stars" would be easily understood however. Not in literal mathematics but in concept.

Which kinda takes me circularly back to the fact that the Jews are 0.2% of the world population at best.

When I think that the Creator deity, singled them out as a chosen nation and told them they would be as numerous as the stars and nobody would hurt them etc etc etc and the actual situation is they make up a drop in the ocean and pretty much everyone either hates them,or has killed them on sight it makes you start to question the stability of the original "holy man" who heard that particular voice!
Perhaps it's their "test"?

Jews are 0.2% of the world population at best.

and (for argument sake) that is going to remain the same till the day comes? among other things (i.e. being a historian,mathematician, physicist, physician etc.) you can tell the future too? wow!

<snip>

format_quote Originally Posted by doorster

and (for argument sake) that is going to remain the same till the day comes? among other things (i.e. being a historian,mathematician, physicist, physician etc.) you can tell the future too? wow!

j/k

Nope, they might have some mad giant growth of numbers that made them have a numerically significant position in the world.

Ask yourself if thats actually likely?

BTW out of your list, i consider myself a historian and sort of physician

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

Which kinda takes me circularly back to the fact that the Jews are 0.2% of the world population at best.

Promise was not for the Jews, in the Bible it is promise for the "seed" of Abraham (pbuh). Seed means here progeny and followers of Abraham (pbuh).