So you are comparing an experience in my head to the source of Big Bang? what exactly is that supposed to mean?
It was simply to demonstrate that for something to be real it is at least an open question as to whether it has to consist of matter or energy.
So according to you the big bang had nothing to do with matter or energy? How do you explain the Sun and the matter in the universe?
I said nothing of the sort. Your claim was that matter and energy were needed to create the Big Bang. The Sun and matter in the universe originated with the Big Bang.
I have to say your posts have always been full of many sarcastic words but never any real information. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
It would only sound harsh from someone who knew what they were talking about and here, frankly, you don't. Gator's example is actually very clever, and far closer to current thinking on the Big Bang than your rather strange idea of it. Where is this matter and energy needed to 'cause' the Big Bang supposed to have come from?
It was simply to demonstrate that for something to be real it is at least an open question as to whether it has to consist of matter or energy.
So could I create an explosion like big bang using an experience from my brain or something similar? Cool!
It would only sound harsh from someone who knew what they were talking about and here, frankly, you don't.
Do you???
I have yet to see a post from you that contains any real information. Being sarcastic to others might make you feel intelligent but that is just "an experience in your mind" as there is no evidence of its existence so far.
Where is this matter and energy needed to 'cause' the Big Bang supposed to have come from?
Funny!!! I was just about to ask you the same thing. Where did Alpha come from? If it does not contain matter or energy then how is it capable of creating it? Enlighten me oh wise one...
So could I create an explosion like big bang using an experience from my brain or something similar? Cool!
I don't recall suggesting that; my intention was, as I said, solely to demonstrate that for something to be real it need not be made of matter or energy. Perhaps a more directly relevant example may help.. probability functions aren't made of mass or energy either. As an aside let's assume you couldn't do that. Surely you believe, though, that God did?
I have yet to see a post from you that contains any real information. Being sarcastic to others might make you feel intelligent but that is just "an experience in your mind" as there is no evidence of its existence so far.
I haven't been 'sarcastic' to anybody (and will ignore the puerile insult). The 'real information', I'm afraid, you are just choosing to ignore.
Funny!!! I was just about to ask you the same question Oh wise one...
Perhaps you might care to actually answer? I have no need to... you are the only one claiming such matter and energy were needed to 'create' the Big Bang.
Gator, could you change your "tag" to agnostic, its confusing as imaginary hell.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
Let's rewind back a bit because i think we're forgetting where the whole discussion started from:
I said, concluding from the ayaat of the Qur'aan, either we've always been around or were created by someone who has always been around. There is not third possibility. Note: the word "we" is not referring to humans specifically; i'm referring to the whole creation.
The response was: why it has to be someone or why is it has to someone who has always been around?
The answer is that there's no other possibility and you cannot explain logically why we only came recently.
Gator responded: how about a natural process?
I think he misunderstood my use of the word "we", he thought i was talking specifically talking about humans.
For argument sake if we agree with him then according to him it only explains the life after the big bang and not before that.
So, we're stuck again and go back:
1) we've always been around
2) something/someone who has always been around gave rise to this universe
Again, there's no third possibility, unless someone can show me.
Now, if we assume that a non-conscious entity gave rise to universe then we're simply saying that there was something always existed from eternity, alpha, it could be anything i.e. matter, energy, etc. So, we can conclude that without any changes in alpha, it couldn't have give rise to universe, unless you say that the alpha was the universe but this is not correct - both logically and scientifically. Now, there're few cases to consider:
1) Alpha was always at rest
2) Something else caused its beginning to change
3) Alpha was always changing
4) Alpha caused it beginning to change
1) Alpha was always at rest
If so, then it would have simply remained what it was for eternity and none of us would be here today
2) Something else caused its beginning to change
There was nothing else existed beside Alpha so something else couldn't have done it.
The other two cases are lengthy but here is my poor attempt and I hope you enjoy it:
3) Alpha was always changing
Here, we're saying that there was no beginning of change. However, by definition, the change are successive. No change come at once, there has to be a prior change. In other words, any subsequent change requires a prior change. Even if we assume that it has been changing forever then it should have been given rise to us from eternity because there's nothing to limit it to not to do so. Have this happened? I don't think so, only X billion years ago this universe came into being. The other possibility is that it required certain things but then where did it get those things from?
4) Alpha caused it beginning to change
This possibility again have the same problem as the one at above: if alpha has been around from eternity then there was nothing beside it, nothing could limit and it was the reality. Whatever we see today or has come in the past or will come in the future must always have been the possibility of the alpha or the result of its changes. For example, let's say it requires "y" to make the universe. This "y" must always have been present in alpha because there was no other place to get it. If it was present then the changes must have occur long before it did.
anyway, for Muslims this is bunch of confusing philisophy; the Qur'aan, the Sahih Sunnah and the understanding of the Salaf and the later 'ulama is enough for us. Allah Ta'ala says that He created us and asked us to ponder on the creation and what He told us.
I guess the others can enjoy this, lol!
my response in red
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
OK. Just a quick thing, evolution has nothing to do with creation or giving rise to life. Its just how things changed once life began. Once again we are dealing with philosophical questions so there is no evidence and noone knows the true answers.
ok,
Alright, I'm going to try present a possible scenario with and unconscious cause. This is just my thoughts given your parameters.
Before the universe there was unconscious "alpha". Yes, could be anything
The basic nature of "alpha" was fluctuating? Not necessarily; depending on the option the discussion can be lengthy
Then in a certain moment in these fluctuations "alpha" released energy. if alpha was fluctuating then it would have been releasing energy from eternity not at some moment in time because there was nothing to limit it
The energy turned into matter (E=mc^2) and gave rise to the universe et al.
That would account for an non-conscous start to the universe and take care of the timing question.
Thanks, this is fun.
So it was in an unsteady state since infinity? That in itself is a contradiction.
sorry, i'm bit slow so didn't pick this one up; bro can you explain how is this contradiction.
I do not expect to comprehend the answers you will give me but I will ask anyway...
If the "alpha" contained no matter or energy then where did matter and energy come from? How do you explain the energy of the stars and the matter scattered all over the universe?
If matter and energy were a result of "Alpha" exploding then did it contain the matter? Or did it create matter and energy from nothing?
your ignorance is not a fact when you say you think no one can know the truth you are just trying to justify your doubts and fears and if the truth is not clear for you it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
everything is a choice and when you say there is no truth you are claiming tha it's the truth and what you have reached as a conclusion but things are very simple your denial of the existance of god is a personal choice and we will know one day who is right and who is wrong but it will be too late then
If the "alpha" contained no matter or energy then where did matter and energy come from? How do you explain the energy of the stars and the matter scattered all over the universe?
If matter and energy were a result of "Alpha" exploding then did it contain the matter? Or did it create matter and energy from nothing?
From nothing.
The problem here is in appreciating what alpha (in Gator's sense) is; it is not the sort of thing than can 'explode', but is a wave function; a mathematical entity, not a physical one. What the wave function defines is the probability distribution that determines what state a physical system, in this case 'the universe' (or potential universe), will be in. I don't really want to get too caught up in that as, frankly, my math and physics is nowhere near good enough.
At a more general level though, away from Hawking-Land, the answer to your question is really covered by a better understanding of what the Big Bang theory actually is. According to that theory at the very beginning the universe popped into existence in the form of a 'singularity' (something infinitely small, infinitily dense and infinitely hot).. we simply don't know as yet exactly what they are, and how they/it could occur - so assign that to God as you wish!
The point here, though, is that at the singularity (and indeed for an infinitesimal time after it), the 'laws of physics' as we know them simply did not exist. According to the math that defines the theory your question simply has no meaning, as it makes no sense to talk of 'matter, or 'energy', or even 'space' and 'time' prior to the Big Bang. The matter and energy ultimately came from the singularity, as the universe expanded, but did not and could not exist prior to that; let alone 'cause' it.
I know you have problems with the idea that something can be 'caused' without matter and/or energy, but that idea is integral to the whole Big Bang theory, or at least insofar as it wasn't really 'caused' by anything at all.
That's the best I can do, I'm afraid... the math and physics you will need to research yourself.
Last edited by Trumble; 10-24-2008 at 12:50 AM.
Reason: typo
your ignorance is not a fact when you say you think no one can know the truth you are just trying to justify your doubts and fears and if the truth is not clear for you it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
everything is a choice and when you say there is no truth you are claiming tha it's the truth and what you have reached as a conclusion but things are very simple your denial of the existance of god is a personal choice and we will know one day who is right and who is wrong but it will be too late then
Hi there. I'm not denying TRUTH exists. I'm just saying no one can know it with certainty.
I'm not justifying my doubts and fears, I'm just looking at the world and coming to the reasonable conclusion that the TRUTH is not self evident.
Just a quick question. If I go to hell just for the fact that I don't believe, do you, in your heart, consider that justice that I spend eternity in hell?
In one word? Yes!
lol only kidding. Don't get mad
Who am I to say what is justice and what isn't? In the grand scheme of things I am just like spec of dust. only Allah knows.
Ha! no worries I won't get mad.
I'm just asking your opinion and what you feel about that question in your heart. you're a person with an opinion and I'd like to hear it. You don't have to give it if you don't want to.
Do you feel it is justice?
Do you feel its not justice, but since its a foundation of your faith you have override what your heart says and accept it as Allah's will?
Don't worry I get all sorts of answers (and evasions) to this question.
In my honest opinion I think if I was to reject the existence of Allah. After everything I know and feel about Islam? Then yes. I really do deserve to burn in Hell.
Especially when every breath I take is a favour from him that I owe him for. He has given me everything and more than I could have ever needed. He gave me life. It would take eternity to count his favours upon me.
So if I am ungrateful and blind towards all his wonders and blessings around me? Then yes. I deserve to go to hell.
Just a quick question. If I go to hell just for the fact that I don't believe, do you, in your heart, consider that justice that I spend eternity in hell?
No, I don’t believe that would be justice.
Some Christians say that Muslims will not achieve salvation; some Muslims say that Christians will not achieve salvation. It seems we are all prone to making judgements as to how God will judge us. BUT, who can honestly say how God will judge each and every one of us?
Yet in our scripture it says you will be judged in the way you judge others, and that has to be were we find hope, we need to pray for each other despite all our differences.
I am not sure how we juggle about in our own minds that Christians Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs have different Gods. One thing is for sure it will be the same God judging all of us. There is one and the same God who hears all our prayers, this should make us all brothers and sisters together despite all our differences.
Just try and imagine what it must be like for God, how must he feel when he looks down and sees the way we treat each other. If we could be kind and merciful to people who are different from us; we might understand how God can be kind and merciful to all of us?
In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.
yes it will be justice if you spend all you eternity in hell because it will be your decision. and chrostians and muslims have the same god but believers and disbelievers are never equal and one will be judged for their deeds not how you judge others if you do good you will find good and if you do bad don't blame anyone.
if you live your life for yourself then you will have nothing in the other life and disbelief is the worst of sins and the one which god never forgives.also there is no other way to god than the way the prophet uhammad prayeers of god upon him showed us and it was a message for all humans and it's the way of all prophets david moses abraham noah and jesus.
just look at the world and you will know what disbelief means and why it's the worst of all sins.and yes we are told to be merciful to all people but not to make them believe they are right and god has always been merciful and kind to us when he created us and gave us all what we need and sent us his prophets to teach us the right ways and show us the way to god.
god doesn't need us but we do need god and if you think of that you will know that god didn't create us to punish us or throw us in hell but we do disobey and when we disobey we spread bad and we cause harm and if you can imagine the suffering of hungry people and homeles and those who can't find water to drink while other waste food and money you will understand why disbelief is the worst of sins and the one which god never forgives
I am sure God must feel responsible for his creation, we pray to God our Father and it must be so distressing for God to see how we treat each other. God has the chance to put all things right in a greater good life after death, when we will know for certain about God.
We cannot blame God for everything; we also have some responsibility towards each other. God has given us commandments to love our neighbour as ourselves and to even love our enemy. If we obeyed the greatest commandments there would be no reason to have conflict in this world.
In the spirit of searching for a loving and merciful God
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So you are comparing an experience in my head to the source of Big Bang?what exactly is that supposed to mean?
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