Thank you very much brother Imam, now it is a bit clear to me concerning people who follow prophet Jesus (pbuh). So they are Muslims and not Christians until the Council of Nicea and after the prosecutions.
Since being Muslim is one who follows Islam, which means submission to God. Wouldn't even Christains today, who submit themselves fully to God be followers of Islam in a technical sense?
And since Christian means "Christ ones" or those who belong to and follow Christ. Wouldn't all persons of all times who follow Christ be Christians? Indeed the Bible says that the followers of Jesus were first called Christians in the city of Antioch shortly after Paul and Barnabus were sent there by the rest of the Apostles, probably sometime around 35 AD.
And if Muslims believe that those who compose the churches of the world today do not really follow Christ, but that Christ taught the same Injeel that Muhammad taught, and that Muslims today are following this same message taught by all of the prophets, then as people who follow Islam, the message taught by Christ, aren't Muslims actually followers of the teachings Christ gave and therefore in a tecnical sense Christians?
Assalamualaikum warahmatullah, peace be upon you and may His blessings poured upon everyone of us,
I am not really clear about Christians today because basically the teaching of previous prophet had been compiled by God and revealed again through prophet Muhammad (pbuh) after human-being had been dwelling in the age of Ignorance for a while, the basic root of the teaching is from Abraham (pbuh) in the term of Syariah (the 6 Pillars of Creed and the 5 Pillars of Islam) not from prophet Jesus (pbuh) nor prophet Moses (pbuh) in the first hand, that is why we have the ritual of Hajj or pilgrimage to Holy City Mecca, as God had assigned prophet Abraham to call all human into Islam and to perform pilgrimage in Mecca, after that his call had been echoed in Glorious Quran and recited by Muslims today. Thus, those who are Christians and Jews are categorized as Ahlul-Kitab today and not Muslim anymore, means people of the books as they followed previous teachings without testifying prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prophethood, I am still not clear anyway, hope brothers in Islam could correct me if I had stated wrong things. I won't be offended because it is the duty of every Muslims to correct and educate other Muslim brothers.
Concerning the follower of prophet Jesus (pbuh) in Antioch, I had heard about a disciple of prophet Jesus (pbuh) called Habib An-Najjar, who had died being stoned by the people of Antioch who are the Pagans. God had told us about him in Glorious Quran in Surah Yaa-Sin verses 20-29. Also in Surah Yaasin, it had been recorded that his soul wails because he could see that his people will be doomed by God forever in the hereafter. It is also recorded that his tribe had suffered a disastrous scream (God had punished them for their cruelty) and all of them died after the scream.
Do you Christians today have heard any story about this honorable person? I am not clear what particular sect that this person is following at the time he had been stoned. I guess it might be basic teaching of prophet Jesus (pbuh) without Trinity Doctrine yet being propagated by Alexandrius.
005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
mayaloveislam- here is the creed of the Arian Church
BELIEVE IN ONE GOD,
Creator of Heaven and earth,
And of all things visible and invisible.
And in his Spiritual Son, Jesus Christ,
Whom was born of Mary and Joseph,
Was not consubstantial nor co-eternal with God the Father almighty, Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried.
On the third day His Spirit was resurrected.
He ascended into Heaven,
And sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty.
Whence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead,
Of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.
And I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the Spirit,
And life everlasting.
Amen.
mayaloveislam- here is the creed of the Arian Church
BELIEVE IN ONE GOD,
Creator of Heaven and earth,
And of all things visible and invisible.
And in his Spiritual Son, Jesus Christ,
Whom was born of Mary and Joseph,
Was not consubstantial nor co-eternal with God the Father almighty, Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried.
On the third day His Spirit was resurrected.
He ascended into Heaven,
And sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty.
Whence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead,
Of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.
And I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the Spirit,
And life everlasting.
Amen.
Thanks for sharing, I think that the Creed of One God in Arian Catholicism is the same with us Muslims. We believe that God creates Heaven and Hell and other metaphysical creations like genies (Devil is a genie not an angel, satans are non-believer genies, genies too possess religions) and angels besides physical creations like human-being and the Universe.
About prophet Jesus (pbuh) as spiritual son, I can understand the meaning for Christians. It might be metaphor for a person with the rank and knowledge to teach religion to others. But in Islam, we are forbidden to use the metaphor 'son' or 'daughter' linking human relationship to God. It is also forbidden to be used even to religious leaders because it may cause confusion to others as human-being have different level of thoughts. People might think that prophet Jesus is a begotten son of God while he is only a prophet and God messenger. For prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we have the term the one beloved by God (Habibullah) but not the son. Also for prophet Moses, the one who spoke* with God (Kalamullah), and prophet Abraham, the one who is the friend of God (Khaleelullah).
*In Islam we can't imagine how does God speak, He is not like human-being. Every wills that He do is not the same like us or anything in the Universe.
About prophet Jesus nativity, we Muslims believe that he was borned without a father, but mother Mary is still a virgin and she had been pregnant after Archangel Gabriel (he take the form of a young man) announced God order to her that she will have an intelligent infant. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was borned under a date tree in a high place near a creek (we are not certain about the place, maybe at the foothill). (Can anyone provide Ibn Katsir interpretation of Quranic verses of Surah Maryam if they have it? Thank you).
About co-God matters, we Muslims believe prophet Jesus as a prophet of God like prophet Moses, prophet David, and prophet Muhammad (pbut). Prophet Muhammad, prophet Moses, prophet David and prophet Jesus (pbut) had been ordained as God Messenger to teach wisdom to their people and they are prophets. Prophet Muhammad's message is Universal for all the tribes and for all the period of time because he is the final prophet and God messenger. They are all not divine, only special humans revealed with prophecies through scriptures by God.
In crucifixion event, we had been told by God in Glorious Quran that Judas Iscariot had been mis-crucified, not Jesus. In an interpretation of Quranic verses (Hamka) it is said that people had mistaken crucifying Judas because he had his face resembling prophet Jesus (pbuh) face, and at the time where it is almost dark people can't see his face clearly with the fire torch.
On the matter of ascension, some Muslims believe that prophet Jesus had ascended through God will. But some believe that he had escaped after God had helped him and travels to other places, and he died like others. This is not principle in Islam. It is sufficient for us to obey the 6 Pillars of Creed and the 5 Pillars of Islam which are the basis of our religion.
About judging the sins of creations, we believe that God is the one who will judge us in the hereafter.
I thought everyone who submitted their lives to GOD was a muslim!?!
Here we can get into a technical discussion. I believe that is a true statement.
The question will arise as to who is submitting to God(swt). If a person truly submits to God(swt) he/she will be technically a Muslim. But, over all it is only Allaah(swt) alone who knows who is truly submitting to him. I would never say anybody is not Muslim, however, I will say that a person's actions are not Islamic. But, I do not feel I have the right to judge who is or is not Muslim.
Can unitarian Christians who reject the trinity and believe in the oneness of God, like Muslims, be considered "Muslim"?
As I understand it before the advent of Muhammad it was possible to be a muslim, that is to submit oneself to God's will. Muhammad's Prophethood now precludes this possability and the only muslims now are Muslims, that is individuals who have pronounced the Shahadah and affirm the oneness of Allah and the prophethood of Muhammad.
I have a friend who attends a Unitarian Universlist Church and even people who do not believe in GOD attend the church and are members!! I guess it is the universe that they believe in!?!
No. "Unitarians" reject the trinity, but Unitarian Universalists are a whole different matter.
mayaloveislam- here is the creed of the Arian Church
Follower, can your provide us with the source you used for the creed. I have also never heard of this Arian Church before, so I know nothing of their history or any of their other beliefs. But I do know who Arius is, and I know that he never founded a separate church under his own name.
format_quote Originally Posted by malayloveislam
In crucifixion event, we had been told by God in Glorious Quran that Judas Iscariot had been mis-crucified, not Jesus. In an interpretation of Quranic verses (Hamka) it is said that people had mistaken crucifying Judas because he had his face resembling prophet Jesus (pbuh) face, and at the time where it is almost dark people can't see his face clearly with the fire torch.
I don't think this is actually in the Qur'an. I have asked to see these verses before and no one has ever been able to point them out to me. I think this is just a particular interpretation of the Qur'an, and one that I have been told by many Muslims is not dependable, and that all that Muslims can actually be certain of is that Jesus was not actually crucified and everything beyond that is simply speculation and human traditions. (Sort of like the traditions in Christian circles that have decided that it was three maji who visited the infant Jesus when the exact number, and certainly not their names, is never revealed.) But if you can finally show these verses to me, I would be interested in knowing them.
Since being Muslim is one who follows Islam, which means submission to God. Wouldn't even Christains today, who submit themselves fully to God be followers of Islam in a technical sense?
And since Christian means "Christ ones" or those who belong to and follow Christ. Wouldn't all persons of all times who follow Christ be Christians? Indeed the Bible says that the followers of Jesus were first called Christians in the city of Antioch shortly after Paul and Barnabus were sent there by the rest of the Apostles, probably sometime around 35 AD.
And if Muslims believe that those who compose the churches of the world today do not really follow Christ, but that Christ taught the same Injeel that Muhammad taught, and that Muslims today are following this same message taught by all of the prophets, then as people who follow Islam, the message taught by Christ, aren't Muslims actually followers of the teachings Christ gave and therefore in a tecnical sense Christians?
Just some thoughts to send your head spinning.
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
I thought everyone who submitted their lives to GOD was a muslim!?!
Here we can get into a technical discussion. I believe that is a true statement.
The question will arise as to who is submitting to God(swt). If a person truly submits to God(swt) he/she will be technically a Muslim. But, over all it is only Allaah(swt) alone who knows who is truly submitting to him. I would never say anybody is not Muslim, however, I will say that a person's actions are not Islamic. But, I do not feel I have the right to judge who is or is not Muslim.
I don't think this is actually in the Qur'an. I have asked to see these verses before and no one has ever been able to point them out to me. I think this is just a particular interpretation of the Qur'an, and one that I have been told by many Muslims is not dependable, and that all that Muslims can actually be certain of is that Jesus was not actually crucified and everything beyond that is simply speculation and human traditions. (Sort of like the traditions in Christian circles that have decided that it was three maji who visited the infant Jesus when the exact number, and certainly not their names, is never revealed.) But if you can finally show these verses to me, I would be interested in knowing them.
Oh yeah Grace Seeker, this is an interpretation from an Interpretation of Quran by an Indonesian Quranic Verses reasearcher, whose name is Abdul Malik Amrullah. He had listed the Israiliyyat (Israelites) myths and also had quoted from Ibnu Katsir Quranic interpretation and several other famous Quranic interpretations in Arabic in his interpretation of Quran in Malay.
I think the verse about prophet Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified is in Surah An-Nisaa (The Women Sura) verse 157. The verse did not clearly mentioned about whom had been crucified but it just stated that another person had been crucified replacing prophet Jesus (pbuh) place.
And then it had been told to us that prophet Jesus had been ascended. This is not the whole verse, I only tell you what I had remembered. It is in verse 158 Surah An-Nisaa.
Many interpretations about who had been crucified. One of them is those 12 disciples of prophet Jesus (pbuh) had decided to save their teacher and each one of them wanted to be the martyr.
Another interpretation is about a traitor, whose black sheep is known Yahuda Iskharyuthi (Judas Iscariot). This person is said to have his appearance almost resembling prophet Jesus (pbuh) and at the time where it is almost dark, was mis-caught by the Romans and other evil Jews. He was then crucified.
But in Islamic tradition about prophet Jesus (pbuh), he was not crucified but others had been crucified in his place. Some interpretation stated that he had escaped to other place through God assistance which is after his ascension.
Only God knows who was crucified in prophet Jesus place .
Here are the verses, I can't translate it on my own although I can do it literally. That is because I'm afraid that I will cause misunderstanding so I better find authorized translation. Reminder, they are merely translation and not equal to Quran. In my country we only recognize the translation from Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and from our religious department with the translation called Ar-Rahman Leadership.
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.
[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
The next verse, it is said that God will appoint prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself as the witness in the hereafter for his followers concerning his nature, his crufixion, and about what had been done to him by evil Jews who tried to kill a God messenger.
Still as Muslims, our salvation is first through witnessing with our heart and soul, orally alone or witnessed by others that God is the only One and no other than Him, and bearing witness that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is God messenger, the seal of all prophets of God and God messengers. After witnessing God as our Lord, and prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we are automatically bearing witness on all previous God messengers and God prophets, not only prophet Jesus (pbuh), but also prophet Moses (pbuh), prophet Abraham (pbuh), prophet Ismael (pbuh), and others mentioned in the previous scriptures and in the Glorious Quran.
Last edited by malayloveislam; 12-23-2008 at 05:34 PM.
Can you indicate to me, in the passage you have referenced, which portions of the verse are actual translations of the Qur'an itself, and which portions are commentary by the translator(s)?
Thanks. I'm more interested in knowing what it is that Allah is reported to have said, than what humans have inferred.
I have been told that the words in ( ) are added. If you read the whole chapter "they" are the Jews.
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise
Unitarian Christian=/=Unitarian Universalist. UU is a modern religion (though it was probably practiced by some ancient thinkers) that is mainly about spirituality and 'being a good person'. Unitarian Christians are Christians who don't believe in the trinity.
003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
Why do Muslims follow Mohammad and not Jesus?
I don't speak arabic and this is the closest I can come to that answer:
Literal:And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.
When there is a question though Muslims are to seek the answer:
010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
Unitarian Christian=/=Unitarian Universalist. UU is a modern religion (though it was probably practiced by some ancient thinkers) that is mainly about spirituality and 'being a good person'. Unitarian Christians are Christians who don't believe in the trinity.
I'll accept that Unitarians are Christian if you'll accept that Ahmadi Muslims are Muslims who just have some different views from you, nothing so significant as to keep them from being identified as Muslim. If you won't go along with that, then understand why I object to you describing Unitarians as Christian -- they are not Christian, specifically because they reject the truth that Christians accept with regard to the Divinity of Jesus Christ, which is contained within understanding the Trinity.
I have been told that the words in ( ) are added. If you read the whole chapter "they" are the Jews.
Thanks, Follower, but I was really spefically asking malayloveislam, because he had provided the Ar-Rahman Leadership translation as that which is the only one he recognized.
For the record, I was already aware how it worked with standard English interpretations by YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, and SHAKIR.
So, malayloveislam, maybe you could use the same format, making use of parenthesis (), to clarify which part of the passage you cited is an actual translation of the Qur'an and which part is just commentary?
I'll accept that Unitarians are Christian if you'll accept that Ahmadi Muslims are Muslims who just have some different views from you, nothing so significant as to keep them from being identified as Muslim. If you won't go along with that, then understand why I object to you describing Unitarians as Christian -- they are not Christian, specifically because they reject the truth that Christians accept with regard to the Divinity of Jesus Christ, which is contained within understanding the Trinity.
I just called them Christian on the grounds that they claim to be Christian, not because they technically are. It helped to distinguish them from the Unitarian Universalists, who are openly non-Christian.
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