Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Hi AntiKarateKid:

You wrote:

“… Christians are polytheists according to Islam and thus cannot be our brothers. Cousins and friends yes, but not brothers.”

It is Islamic tradition that teaches that Christians are polytheists. The Qur’an (e.g. 2:62) shows that Christians are accepted by God and are therefore your Brothers (with a capital B). Polytheists cannot be Christians, though they may call themselves such. You should read the book on the link provided by Doorster.

Regards,
Grenville

You are distorting the Quran to your own ends now. Please stop. That verse says they have nothing to fear assuming the accept the final Prophet. Read it in context.

What do you mean polytheists cannot be Christian? Have you missed the last 1400 years of debate with Muslim scholars and laymen affirming that the trinity is polytheistic.




Please if you are going to quote the Quran, quote it properly. You should read the tafsirs of the Surah before bending the ayat to your will.

Hi AntiKarareKid:

I explained that 2:65 was an example to show brotherhood. Admittedly, it is not explicit enough, but given God’s displeasure with and warnings about idolatry, it is unlikely that those who practise such are on the right path. That was the point of listing 2:65 and not other more explicit verses.

Jesus contrasted the broad way that led to destruction with the narrow way, which had relatively fewer people on it, that led to life. He also explained that there was only one way to God.

The Qur’an appears to explain that God guides believers, all believers, whether they call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Baha’i, Hog Pog, etc, all believers. God guides all believers to the Truth, to a path that is straight.

“Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.”

Now obviously the Christian would need to stop practising those aspects of Christian tradition that conflict with the Truth of the Bible, and Muslims would need to stop practising those aspects of Islamic tradition which are in conflict with the Truth of the Qur’an, so too with the Jews. With Hindu’s, they would need to stop practising those aspects of Hindu tradition and the Vedas that that are in conflict with the truth in the Bible and the Qur’an, and similarly with the Baha’i, Buddhist, Taoist, etc etc.

Therefore, all of those “believers to the Truth” who are on the “path that is straight” or the “narrow way” must be brothers. If God has guided you to the Truth and you are on the same narrow path as I, then you are no longer AntiKarateKid to me, but Brother AntiKarateKid, despite how offensive Islamic tradition may have taught you to believe that that sounds.

Also, this is not the “interfaith love” that compromises or ignores selective teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an in order to arrive at a uneasy distrusting peace. The Author assumed that both the Bible and the Qur’an are correct, and has reconciled the teachings without damaging the verses in the Qur’an or Bible. I think that you should read the book to discover a different perspective on this matter.

Regards,
Grenville

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Hi AntiKarareKid:

I explained that 2:65 was an example to show brotherhood. Admittedly, it is not explicit enough, but given God’s displeasure with and warnings about idolatry, it is unlikely that those who practise such are on the right path. That was the point of listing 2:65 and not other more explicit verses.

Jesus contrasted the broad way that led to destruction with the narrow way, which had relatively fewer people on it, that led to life. He also explained that there was only one way to God.

The Qur’an appears to explain that God guides believers, all believers, whether they call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Baha’i, Hog Pog, etc, all believers. God guides all believers to the Truth, to a path that is straight.

it may appear that way to you, that however is clearly in error. as a matter of fact the "straight path" you7 talk about is something we, AS MUSLIMS, "ask Allah for guidance to" at least 17 times a day! it goes like this:

Transliteration: Bismi Allahi arrahmani arraheem
Muhsin Khan: In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Transliteration: Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameen
Muhsin Khan: All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Transliteration: Arrahmani arraheem
Muhsin Khan: The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Transliteration: Maliki yawmi addeen
Muhsin Khan: The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

Transliteration: Iyyaka naAAbudu wa-iyyaka nastaAAeen
Muhsin Khan: You (Alone) we worship, and you (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

Transliteration: Ihdina assirata almustaqeem
Muhsin Khan: Guide us to the Straight Way

Transliteration: Sirata allatheena anAAamta AAalayhim ghayri almaghdoobi AAalayhim wala addalleen
Muhsin Khan: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

we ask Allah to guide us to the straight path: Ihdina assirata almustaqeem, which is why i used the Muhsin Khan translation. it specifically tells us NOT the path of the Jews(those who earned Your Anger) or Christians(those who went astray.) while the verse could also include ANYONE who angers Allah or who goes astray, we are told point blank in the very first Surah in the Qur'an that Christians are in error!

“Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.”

Now obviously the Christian would need to stop practising those aspects of Christian tradition that conflict with the Truth of the Bible, and Muslims would need to stop practising those aspects of Islamic tradition which are in conflict with the Truth of the Qur’an, so too with the Jews. With Hindu’s, they would need to stop practising those aspects of Hindu tradition and the Vedas that that are in conflict with the truth in the Bible and the Qur’an, and similarly with the Baha’i, Buddhist, Taoist, etc etc.

Therefore, all of those “believers to the Truth” who are on the “path that is straight” or the “narrow way” must be brothers. If God has guided you to the Truth and you are on the same narrow path as I, then you are no longer AntiKarateKid to me, but Brother AntiKarateKid, despite how offensive Islamic tradition may have taught you to believe that that sounds.

Also, this is not the “interfaith love” that compromises or ignores selective teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an in order to arrive at a uneasy distrusting peace. The Author assumed that both the Bible and the Qur’an are correct, and has reconciled the teachings without damaging the verses in the Qur’an or Bible. I think that you should read the book to discover a different perspective on this matter.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

your intentions may be good, but i suggest that you throw the book away! the author has no clue as to what Islam is.

in fact, we are taught that if Moses, pbuh, were alive today, he would follow the path laid out by Rasulullah Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh, and that when Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, pbuh, returns that he will rule as a Muslim!

for a little further clarification notice:

Iyyaka naAAbudu wa-iyyaka nastaAAeen; which translates roughly as:You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
it describes our faith pretty well! You ALONE we worship! we worship Allah alone and without partners as taught to us by Rasulullah Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh; and You ALONE we ask fo help! we don't worship Jesus or some mysterious holy ghost, nor do we pray to Jesus or Mary of Christopher or Jude or anyone else!

and to repeat myself, we learn this in the very first Surah, Al Fatihah!

maybe Walter Phillips missed that one. :rolleyes:

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Oh YusufNoor:

You have allowed Islamic tradition to cause you to needlessly distrust those whom you know not. How could you have taken, perhaps the most beautiful set of verses in the Qur’an and misinterpreted them so completely.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Every Believer, Christian and Muslim, should pray this with you.

Regarding the book, please be advised that the Author agrees with you that God ALONE must be worshipped. Why don’t you read it before jumping to your conclusions – that is not the right way Yusuf, not the right way at all.

Regards,
Grenville

Enough. For your own sake, do not quote the Quran because you have absolutely no knowledge of it, the context the verses were revealed it, or the point behind Islam.

Let's open our eyes here and remove the rainbows.


God does not send prophets because it's fun for him.


Prophet Muhammad was sent to correct the pagans, JEWS AND CHRISTIANS.


Do not dismiss Islamic tradition which is an awkward word since it is based upon the very acts of the Prophet and a CORRECT interpretation of the Quran dating back from the best generation. So it is the essence of Islam not the tradition.



Christians and Jews must change, that is the point of a Prophet. If they decide not to, they will answer to God who will not be too pleased that the Christians worship Jesus pbuh and the Jews reject everyone they fancy.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Oh AntiKarateKid:

Why don’t you simply read the book. When you push against an open door, you will fall and bruise your face. The Author agrees with you. Mohammed’s words are very relevant for Christians and Jews who have strayed from what God has revealed in the Bible to their man made traditions. Mohammed’s words are also relevant to Muslims who have embraced Islamic traditions that are not compatible with the Qur’an. Why don’t you just read it instead of pushing so hard against an open door?

Regards,
Grenville

With respect, please address the points I made before or else our conversation is in vain.

Why don't you read the Quran (preferably tafsirs to understand the context of verses) and Hadith before commenting on what Islam is supposed to mean?

You read it "several times" huh? I doubt you ever looked at the tafsirs of those verses or you wouldn't have been immediately argued with for your interpretation of the ayat from before by actual Muslims. (owning a book, reading a book, and understanding a book are separate things).


Also, you have not defined what your referring to as "Islamic tradition" even is. I am objecting to your universalist approach to religion. I get the feeling that you want Muslims to just adopt a view along the lines of "everyone is right, we should just hold hands and sing." This was not the way of the Prophets, early Muslims, or opinion of every respected SCHOLAR of Islam.

Simply put, if a Jew or Christian is exposed to the true teachings of Islam, it is their duty to revert or earn the displeasure of Allah.

[48:28] He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over all other religions. Allah suffices as a witness.

Can I just say... lets be nice to Brother Grenville. He seems to have the right intentions.

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious?. (16:125)

"Say: 'O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will).'" (3:64)

Peace

....

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Oh YusufNoor:

You have allowed Islamic tradition to cause you to needlessly distrust those whom you know not.

what the heck are you on about? i studied Christianity for years, i was brought up Catholic. no Islamic tradition has cause me anything regarding Christians


How could you have taken, perhaps the most beautiful set of verses in the Qur’an and misinterpreted them so completely.

actually, the transliteration is more accurate. anything in English is just interpretation; and i used Muhsin Khan's translation because it contains some Tafseer in it. and the Tafseer on Surat Al Fatihah is that in

Sirata allatheena anAAamta AAalayhim ghayri almaghdoobi AAalayhim wala addalleen


is that those who have "earned Thine anger" are the Jews and those who have "gone astray" are the Christians!

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Every Believer, Christian and Muslim, should pray this with you.

EXACTLY and they should do so as Muslims!

Regarding the book, please be advised that the Author agrees with you that God ALONE must be worshipped. Why don’t you read it before jumping to your conclusions – that is not the right way Yusuf, not the right way at all.

Regards,
Grenville

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Muslims don't need to read ANY book on Christianity, especially one in which the author doesn't understand Islam. EVERYTHING that a Muslim might need to know about Jesus, pbuh, they can learn in Islam.

IF YOU would like to know more about Surat Al Fatihah, listen to these lectures by Shaykh Jamaaluddin Zarabozo, another former Catholic:

http://www.kalamullah.com/al-fatihah.html

you will learn ALOT about Islam, In Sha'a Allah, if you listen.

[and you can still throw the book away! ]

Hi AntiKareteKid:

1. It is my understanding that Islamic tradition comprises what Muslims are expected to believe and how they are expected to behave. Ideally, all aspects of Islamic tradition should be supported by the Qur’an. Do you agree with this definition?

Also, you have not defined what your referring to as "Islamic tradition" even is. I am objecting to your universalist approach to religion. I get the feeling that you want Muslims to just adopt a view along the lines of "everyone is right, we should just hold hands and sing." This was not the way of the Prophets, early Muslims, or opinion of every respected SCHOLAR of Islam.

2. I have no universalist approach to religion. If there is only one way to God, then whoever is not on this way is going in the wrong direction. Which is the right way? It is the way that God has revealed? Christians claim that God has revealed the right way to them in the Bible. Muslims claim that God has revealed the right way to them in the Qur’an.

The Bible and the Qur’an express disappointment in those who received God’s revelation but did not always follow it, preferring instead followed their own developed man-made religious traditions or practices. Therefore, if this is correct, then why should anyone be surprised that there is harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an, but disharmony between the principal teachings of the religious traditions.

I started this thread noting that I had read a book called Brothers Kept Apart, which assumed that the Qur’an was correct. The Author did not ignore inconvenient verses, or damage the integrity of the verses. He simply found that they could be interpreted in a way that was in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, the Bible, and the historical record.

Simply put, if a Jew or Christian is exposed to the true teachings of Islam, it is their duty to revert or earn the displeasure of Allah.

Here is where we have partial agreement. I believe that if a Jew or Christian is exposed to the true teachings of Islam, they would be better Jews or Christians. Similarly, if you were exposed to the true teachings of Christianity, you would be a better Muslim.

Regards,
Grenville

In essence it seems like you as a Christian are trying to advise Muslims on how to better follow Islam while using baseless interpretations of the Quran and no further supporting evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Hi Eric:

It seems that I have upset AntiKarateKid. He refuses to read the book, yet he has developed an unshakable conclusion based on what is written in the book - which he refuses to read. I am not accustomed to that level of stubbornness. Where is Woodrow when you need him?

Regards,
Grenville

Because I disagree strongly with you I have to be upset and stubborn?

Not once have I called you any name, yet here you are calling me stubborn.

Listen. You keep telling me to read the book... I have a suggestion. Just a small one.


Understand the Quran, hadith and Islam before you try and lecture to Muslims about how to be Muslim.

You say that you have read the Quran "many times" yet as soon as you provided your interpretation for a verse in it, you were opposed and refuted by my fellow Muslims.

It is you who must start reading the Quran properly. But I understand that you as a Christian are not interested in understanding a source that opposes your views and are content to whimsically misquote it.





But by all means keep distorting the Quran if you want. But be ready for people with proper knowledge to oppose you.