A recent comprehensive study concluded that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur'an, but that Christianity and Islamic tradition are incompatible. I read it and I believe it. The study is called Brothers Kept Apart, and it can be partially read on-line at Amazon and Barnes & Noble. It is also available as an e-book for $6 from iUniverse.com
From my previous discussions here, I have found that so few Muslims will read the Bible, yet they continue to criticize their interpretation of Christian tradition. Similarly, few Christians will actually read the Qur’an, but will criticize their interpretation of Islamic tradition.
I have examined the author’s claims and have found that even the most contentious verses in the Qur’an can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the Bible, the rest of the Qur’an, and the historical record, yet, for whatever reason, Islamic tradition interprets them in a contentious way. This is similar for Christian tradition’s interpretation of the Bible.
It seems that Christians and Muslims are brothers who have been unnecessarily kept apart for the past 1,300 years by their religious leaders.
I am looking to be enlightened by some one who reads the Qur'an a lot and Prays to God for God's interpritation and not a man's. I am a Christian that seeks God's interpritation and I try to stay away from "christian" traditions that are not in the Bible. From what I have read in the Bible that God wants all "humans" with him in Heaven. I second the this! I am not a scolar and I do not even speak and write english to well but I do wish to understand the "True Muslim Faith". I hope that I am in the right place... May i ask a few questions here?
Welcome Brother
You are in the right place.
Please feel free to ask any questions
while most people have never heard of Dr Bahsar Shala, i have found his lectures to be VERY inspiring and his knowledge well based and researched.
i KNOW it's VERY long, but it lays the foundation for understanding Islam and the Qur'an.
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
It seems that I may have misinterpreted your posts. I thought that you were upset. Please forgive me. Let us at least agree on our positions.
I have recommended a book that I believe has the potential to reconcile Christians and Muslims, who have been taught, unnecessarily, to endure an unreceptive and argumentative relationship for the past 1,300 years.
You have no intention of reading the book.
We agree that God has revealed his revelation to Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why then is it so difficult to believe that just maybe, the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an could be in harmony? If there is disharmony, then would that not mean that there were two different sources of the revelation?
It seems that I may have misinterpreted your posts. I thought that you were upset. Please forgive me. Let us at least agree on our positions.
I have recommended a book that I believe has the potential to reconcile Christians and Muslims, who have been taught, unnecessarily, to endure an unreceptive and argumentative relationship for the past 1,300 years.
You have no intention of reading the book.
We agree that God has revealed his revelation to Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why then is it so difficult to believe that just maybe, the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an could be in harmony? If there is disharmony, then would that not mean that there were two different sources of the revelation?
Regards,
Grenville
Because Christians worship Jesus as God in a trinity and the cornerstone of Islam is a trancendant indivisable God?
Because Allah says in the Quran that Christians and Jews have corrupted their books? And historical evidence backs this up?
Because in the end there is only one truth from God not many? And whomever opposes this truth earns the displeasure of God and the followers of the truth?
Aaaaaaand Finally because you still have not answered my request that you study the Quran properly before making conclusions about it? Especially when every intepretation you put forth is immediately refuted by people who are actually Muslim?
You know it might just be necessary to do the above before citing a book that talks about the Quran? Just maybe.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 03-04-2009 at 06:49 PM.
no they are not! because brothers use to talk to each other hang around with each other but thats forbidden in islam because the quran says
"dont be friends with christians and jews because if you be friends with them you become one of them"!
islamic monotheism thats what its all about!
you seem to have come a long way since our last unpleasant encounter, meaning that you've learnt to misquote from our holy Quraan since then
if an Egyptian brother had used your logic and shunned Estes family they would still be family of Christian Evangelists
Muslims are allowed to be friends with Christians and Jews Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi states: (in an answer to a question)The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.
Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: [O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)
In another place in the Qur'an, Allah Almighty says:
[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)
Moreover, Allah Almighty has described Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "a mercy" to the worlds. He was a sign of Allah's Mercy to all, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. In his kindness and fair treatment he did not make any difference between the believers and non-believers. He was kind to the pagans of Makkah and fought them only when they fought him. He made treaties with the Jews of Madinah and honored the treaties until they broke them.
He (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have received the Christians of Najran with kindness in his Masjid in Madinah. They argued with him about Islam, but he returned them with honor and respect. There are many examples from his life that show that he was the friendliest person to all people.
In the verse you quoted, the word "Awliya" is used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".
In the Qur'an this word is used for God, such as [Allah is the Protector (or Lord and Master) of those who believe. He takes them out from the depths of darkness to light…] (Al- Baqarah 2: 257)
There are many other references in the Qur'an that give this meaning. The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur'an for human beings, such as [And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin "wali" the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…] (Al-‘Isra' 17 :33)
The correct translation of the verse in Surat Al-Ma’idah is: [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)
It is obvious that Jews patronize the Jews and Christians patronize the Christians, so why not Muslims patronize Muslims and support their own people. This verse is not telling us to be against Jews or Christians, but it is telling us that we should take care of our own people and we must support each other.
In his Tafsir, (Qur’an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (i.e. the one you referred to) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68)
Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. You are correct in pointing out that a Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says: [O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya') your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.] (Al-Tawbah 9: 23)
In a similar way, the Qur'an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims's duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from oppression. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he himself will defend a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non-Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah Almighty says, [Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers…] (Aal-'Imran 3: 28)
He Almighty also says: [O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?] (An-Nisaa’ 4:144) further reading:
Because Christians worship Jesus as God in a trinity and the cornerstone of Islam is a transcendent indivisible God?
If you would have read the book like I asked you, you would have realized that Biblical support for the Christian tradition of the Trinity is weak. Perhaps if us Christians spent the same effort critically examining the Bible as we do in defending our religious traditions, we would have reconciled with you a long time ago.
Because Allah says in the Quran that Christians and Jews have corrupted their books? And historical evidence backs this up?
This is an Islamic traditional argument with weak support in the Qur’an. Perhaps if Muslims spent the same effort critically examining the Qur’an as they do defending their religious traditions, you would have reconciled with us a long time ago.
Because in the end there is only one truth from God not many? And whomever opposes this truth earns the displeasure of God and the followers of the truth?
Finally, we are in complete agreement. There may be hope for us yet AntiKarateKid!
Aaaaaaand Finally because you still have not answered my request that you study the Quran properly before making conclusions about it? Especially when every intepretation you put forth is immediately refuted by people who are actually Muslim? You know it might just be necessary to do the above before citing a book that talks about the Quran? Just maybe.
Oh dear. Just when we had a glimmer of hope ….
You asked me to study the Qur’an before making conclusions about it, but here you are making conclusions about a book which you refuse to read.
You would note that I joined IslamicBoard a few months before you did. You may also be aware that I was away from this Board for about one year. Doing what? Studying several English versions of the Qur’an, Ishaq’s biography of Mohammed, and some hadiths. So I have sought and gained knowledge, and have come to tell you that there is hope for us all.
If you would have read the book like I asked you, you would have realized that Biblical support for the Christian tradition of the Trinity is weak. Perhaps if us Christians spent the same effort critically examining the Bible as we do in defending our religious traditions, we would have reconciled with you a long time ago.
This is an Islamic traditional argument with weak support in the Qur’an. Perhaps if Muslims spent the same effort critically examining the Qur’an as they do defending their religious traditions, you would have reconciled with us a long time ago.
Finally, we are in complete agreement. There may be hope for us yet AntiKarateKid!
Oh dear. Just when we had a glimmer of hope ….
You asked me to study the Qur’an before making conclusions about it, but here you are making conclusions about a book which you refuse to read.
You would note that I joined IslamicBoard a few months before you did. You may also be aware that I was away from this Board for about one year. Doing what? Studying several English versions of the Qur’an, Ishaq’s biography of Mohammed, and some hadiths. So I have sought and gained knowledge, and have come to tell you that there is hope for us all.
Regards,
Grenville
This is an Islamic traditional argument with weak support in the Qur’an. Perhaps if Muslims spent the same effort critically examining the Qur’an as they do defending their religious traditions, you would have reconciled with us a long time ago.
Lol? Is this a joke? You think that Islam does not regard the Bible as corrupt? If it wasnt corrupt, Christians would have converted to Islam long ago. I'm not even going to get into this one because it is obvious that you are blocking out whatever essential parts of Islam you desire.
You would note that I joined IslamicBoard a few months before you did. You may also be aware that I was away from this Board for about one year. Doing what? Studying several English versions of the Qur’an, Ishaq’s biography of Mohammed, and some hadiths. So I have sought and gained knowledge, and have come to tell you that there is hope for us all.
Are you trying to pass off reading yourself and joining an Islamic website as equal to seeking the experience of scholars who have lifetime access to a broader variety of sources than you and actually read and analyze the tafsirs you shun in favor of your own erroneous interpretations?
Well, it is clear that I there will be no complete agreement between us.
If a verse in the Qur’an could reasonably be interpreted in two ways.
1. one that was in conflict with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an;
2. another that was consistent with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an.
Which would you choose? Why do I believe that you will chose option 1.
Well, it is clear that I there will be no complete agreement between us.
If a verse in the Qur’an could reasonably be interpreted in two ways.
1. one that was in conflict with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an;
2. another that was consistent with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an.
Which would you choose? Why do I believe that you will chose option 1.
Regards,
Grenville
ok enough!
If a verse in the Qur’an could reasonably be interpreted in two ways
greetings
anything can be interpreted a hundred different ways, that does not make them correct.
I asked you this earlier but you ignored it or overlooked it due to all this to'ing and fro'ing
let us start again one last time, I like Brother Eric because he lets me be and I let him be, you on the other hand seem to be bent on creating a new religion.
We must agree to disagree because there is no room for interpretations just translation will do me nicely as long as they all agree on the essence of the message regardless of the wording used in those translations.
Since you are now the only person in this thread who appears to have actually read the book, other than myself, I am happy that we can finally reason together. Let me state that I was quite excited at the book's contents because I had come to similar conclusions.
Before we discuss the book, let me briefly respond to your last post.
anything can be interpreted a hundred different ways, that does not make them correct.
I agree with you completely, that is why criteria need to be stated. As you are aware, the author used the interpretative criteria of:
• the interpretation must be supported by the evidence;
• the interpretation must not damage the integrity of the evidence; and
• the assumptions used in interpreting the evidence must be verified.
While such criteria cannot guarantee that the interpretationa are 100% accurate, they can identify incorrect interpretations.
let us start again one last time, I like Brother Eric because he lets me be and I let him be, you on the other hand seem to be bent on creating a new religion.
There must be a major misunderstanding if you think that I wish to create a new religion. However, let us agree to simply ignore the incorrect assertion.
We must agree to disagree because there is no room for interpretations just translation will do me nicely as long as they all agree on the essence of the message regardless of the wording used in those translations.
Yes Doorster. If after discussing an issue we fail to reach an agreement, then we should respectfully agree to disagree. However, if no one will read the book, then we cannot have the discussion which will either lead to an agreement or a respectful disagreement. I am heartened that I can finally have that discussion in this forum. May God bless you with an abndance of understanding so that we can all know the truth, including myself.
I would like to ask you to go back to previous posts and look again .. look for the words Qatal and Salab and tell me how many interpretation are possible?
My answer to that is simple. I do not know. I speak and read English fluently, I know some Spanish and French and a little Latin, but no Arabic. Therefore, I must rely on English translations.
Now, to the book. I suppose we can review it chapter by chapter, starting with chapter 1. Do you agree with the conclusions reached in Chapter 1?
My answer to that is simple. I do not know. I speak and read English fluently, I know some Spanish and French and a little Latin, but no Arabic. Therefore, I must rely on English translations.
.....
Regards,
Grenville
hi
that is a reason enough, for us two, to peacefully leave one another to their own understanding of the crucifixion/non-crucifixion.
I like Brother Eric because he lets me be and I let him be,
Thank you very much brother doorster, religion seems to be a conflict, on the one hand I have a deep faith in Christianity, and it would be so much easier if everyone shared my beliefs. On the other hand there is the two greatest commandments, the things I should do over and above all else.
I want the freedom from Muslims, Hindu, atheist and all others, to try and grow in faith as a Catholic, but if I want this freedom for myself I should want it for all my neighbours too. Muslims want the freedom to live in peace with Islam, and freedom for Hindu, atheist, and all others.
you on the other hand seem to be bent on creating a new religion.
I perceive Grenville’s intentions to search for harmony between beliefs, as a way of living in harmony together. I do not think he wants to form a new religion called Christoislam.
anything can be interpreted a hundred different ways, that does not make them correct.
Between the Bible and the Koran there must be over a thousand verses relating to justice for the poor, all these verses may be open to interpretation. But the bottom line is these thousand verses are trying to inspire us to get up and do something about the problem today. They are not intended that we should squabble over meaning, and why can’t Muslims and Christians work together to seek justice for the poor.
In the spirit of praying for justice for the poor and oppressed.
Well, before this thread is closed, permit me to briefly describe the initial chapters that Doorester and AntiKarateKid concluded (without reading them) that were so abhorrent and incorrectly interpreted.
Brothers Kept Apart
Essentially the author assumed that if God’s revelation was contained in both the Bible and the Qur’an, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between both books.
Chapter 1 – Is the God of the Bible the same God as the Qur’an?
The author provided compelling evidence to show that the God of the Bible, who is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the only Creator, is the same God referred to in the Qur’an.
Chapter 2 - Could Mohammed have been a Prophet of God?
The Author provided compelling evidence from the Bible and the Qur’an, to show that Mohammed was a prophet sent by God. He also showed how Mohammed’s message was consistent with that of the prophets that God sent to the Israelites.
Since these interpretations have been found to be not only incorrect, but too offensive to even consider, then it seems that we are destined to remain apart until the end of the age, where you will have ample opportunity to explain your adversarial stance.
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