I was reading in another thread and I saw where one of our Muslim members I respect posted the following definition of worship:
What does taking(someone,something) as a god in Islam means?
To believe in him,her,it as the creator.
or to believe that he,she,it would influence your life or life of others directly or indirectly in a way that only God is able to....
or Calling upon others besides Allah for help,or intercession.
With that definition I can see how one would think that many of the ritals of certain Christian groups (for instance veneration of Mary or asking saints to inteceede for one with God) would be understood by Muslims as worship, and yet I am also sure those Christians do not view nor intend those rituals as acts of worship which they would reserve (in their mind) for God alone.
What are some other terms you have encountered that we need to learn to identify as perhaps having different meanings depending on one's faith background?
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I was reading in another thread and I saw where one of our Muslim members I respect posted the following definition of worship:
With that definition I can see how one would think that many of the ritals of certain Christian groups (for instance veneration of Mary or asking saints to inteceede for one with God) would be understood by Muslims as worship, and yet I am also sure those Christians do not view nor intend those rituals as acts of worship which they would reserve (in their mind) for God alone.
What are some other terms you have encountered that we need to learn to identify as perhaps having different meanings depending on one's faith background?
There are some problems with this though.
1. Who is to say what you consider worship is even the right one? I do not remember most Jews offering prayers to any figure but Yahweh.
2. Whether their actions are done out of ignorance or misdirected intentions doesn't change what they are in reality.
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
graceseeker - I think you need to define veneration of Mary.
I just had a thread closed because of my statement that Muslims do to the Kaaba what Cathoilcs do to the statue of Mary. Immediately I was accused of saying that Muslims worship the kaaba which I know is not correct.
I repeat that I know that Muslims do not worship the kaaba and in fact Catholics do not worship Mary or her statue.
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
graceseeker - I think you need to define veneration of Mary.
I just had a thread closed because of my statement that Muslims do to the Kaaba what Cathoilcs do to the statue of Mary. Immediately I was accused of saying that Muslims worship the kaaba which I know is not correct.
I repeat that I know that Muslims do not worship the kaaba and in fact Catholics do not worship Mary or her statue.
The Kabba is a Qibla - is mary a qibla for you or for the people who "venerate" Mary?
Just to add nobody sees the Kabba as an intercessor or a helping thing - pity the same cannot be said for the people that use mary as an intercessor.
Last edited by Zafran; 05-23-2009 at 12:14 AM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
What are some other terms you have encountered that we need to learn to identify as perhaps having different meanings depending on one's faith background?
As well as words like 'God' and 'religion', which are obviously going to be understood in different ways, the word 'Proof' is often used in wildly different ways by different groups on the forum, as are other words like 'Science' and 'Terrorism'.
Ultimately, language means what we want it to mean. Constructing definitions for abstract terms like this may not help anything: the meaning of each one depends only on what the speaker uses it to mean.
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I was reading in another thread and I saw where one of our Muslim members I respect posted the following definition of worship:
With that definition I can see how one would think that many of the ritals of certain Christian groups (for instance veneration of Mary or asking saints to inteceede for one with God) would be understood by Muslims as worship, and yet I am also sure those Christians do not view nor intend those rituals as acts of worship which they would reserve (in their mind) for God alone.
What are some other terms you have encountered that we need to learn to identify as perhaps having different meanings depending on one's faith background?
perhaps one could define "Bible," as to what "historically" is the Bible. it's just a book right, biblios is Greek for "book" and IN NO WAY means from God, inspired by God or written by God, just a book? and nothing authoritative about it! and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that is is "from God."
i mean it's confusing for Muslims that Christians refer to the "Bible" as thought they have PROOF that it is from God, when in fact, it is just a book. they cannot say who wrote half of the books of the NT, and they cannot apply a single provable date to when any of it was written! and Christians have written and changed whatever is in there to make it say whatever they want it to.
so when a Christian says, "it's in the Bible!"; well that doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans now, does it?
why don't Christians just own up and say, "you see here, we have this book. we like to pretend it is from God. OF COURSE there's not the smallest, slightest scintilla of PROOF for it, but we like to pretend it is so".
that way there, no Muslims here will be confused about this thing called "the Bible", they can just dismiss any claims by it as UNRELIABLE and UNFOUNDED by FACT! actually it would be nice to see this as a disclaimer for all of the Christian posts here. at least we might think that they are being honest.
yes, i do believe we should should define things here!
and how about trinity while we are at it, eh? just admit it means 3 Gods, but you PREFER to PRETEND that you are monotheistic! at least be truthful!
and while we are at it, could you STOP calling God the Father, God the Father; i mean your own creed, says that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus and not "God the Father." see here:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.
i mean come on, don;t you think that "as a God", the "Son" has a right to know who his father really is? or do we need to define father, too?
this thread just might serve some good, after all!
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
Good point Zaphran - Mary is the perfect example of a follower of GOD, the kaaba is an inanimate object. No we do not need to face in any direction to pray to GOD.
Yusef - The Holy Bible is the Word of GOD-Holy Scripture. There is a slight difference between the way the Quran and Bible were revealed.
I understand the Quran is believed to have been revealed word by word for Mohammad to memorize. Mohammad was illiterate, it would have been difficult for him to put revelaed concepts into a coherent message.
The men in charge of receiving the the revelation of the Holy Bible were learned, literate, they were capable of putting the concepts given to them by GOD into coherent sentences on their own using the language common in that time and place.
Another understanding is that Mohammad had no eyewitnesses concerning revelations. The Holy Bibile has eyewitnesses throughout.
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Yusef - The Holy Bible is the Word of GOD-Holy Scripture.
show us your proof!
There is a slight difference between the way the Quran and Bible were revealed.
actually, the Qur'an was revealed. now is your "Book" revealed or written by eyewitness. if you say revealed, you admit to no eyewitnesses!
I understand the Quran is believed to have been revealed word by word for Mohammad to memorize. Mohammad was illiterate, it would have been difficult for him to put revelaed concepts into a coherent message.
.
that is not a defense of what you call, the Book. and the Qur'an is the MOST eloquent Arabic EVER! EVER! NEVER EVER has it been bested as to style or content! if you are in doubt, produce one your self!
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
The men in charge of receiving the the revelation of the Holy Bible were learned, literate, they were capable of putting the concepts given to them by GOD into coherent sentences on their own using the language common in that time and place.
what men? with the exception of some letters by Paul NO ONE KNOWS who wrote the vast majority of what you call the New Testament!
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Another understanding is that Mohammad had no eyewitnesses concerning revelations. The Holy Bibile has eyewitnesses throughout.
NONE of the Gospel writers were eyewitness to the life of Jesus. IF you believe so, show your proof!
how do type or see the computer screen with your head so far up your ....? is it through your navel?
you just can't make stuff up about the Qur'an and deem it to be true! there WERE witnesses to revelation! AND to Gibreel!
Last edited by YusufNoor; 05-25-2009 at 02:59 AM.
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
what men? with the exception of some letters by Paul NO ONE KNOWS who wrote the vast majority of what you call the New Testament!
he keeps using that point, which actually tells me he hasn't read any replies given to him as I specifically stated that there were several instances when the wahy was received or came while others were present.. once with Ibn um Maktum (who was blind) verse 4:95
and other instances with the sahaba present Gabriel pbuh assumed the shape of a man to teach them of their religion..
other than quoting bulk volumes of nonsense from 'the good book' and repeating the same crap over and over, I really don't understand his point it is bordering on a mental illness..
even as an evangelist he isn't effective, sob7an Allah, he actually ends up doing opposite of what he sets out to do, as he reminds me of the folks who sentence to death Galileo and others for daring to mouth a solid point of view.. parroting evangelist nonsense over and over, you'd think they'd at least ask Muslims so when they come all evangel-happy we'd see the light and they wouldn't be met with such defeat?..
still in the age of the moon gods and mary getting pregnant out of eating dates ey? Who are they fooling? other than themselves that is?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
Salaam
The evangelical missionires just make us not want to be a christian - especially the silly stuff they say and come up with. Your right
Who are they fooling? other than themselves that is?
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
perhaps one could define "Bible," as to what "historically" is the Bible. it's just a book right, biblios is Greek for "book" and IN NO WAY means from God, inspired by God or written by God, just a book? and nothing authoritative about it! and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that is is "from God."
i mean it's confusing for Muslims that Christians refer to the "Bible" as thought they have PROOF that it is from God, when in fact, it is just a book. they cannot say who wrote half of the books of the NT, and they cannot apply a single provable date to when any of it was written! and Christians have written and changed whatever is in there to make it say whatever they want it to.
so when a Christian says, "it's in the Bible!"; well that doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans now, does it?
You are correct in suggesting that when Christians say "it's in the Bible" it really only has meaning for those who accept the Bible as authoritative. Of course, I suggest the same holds true for any text that purports to be sacred scripture, be it the sacred texts of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or communism for that matter -- those who hold their texts as authoritative will certainly read them differently than those who do not.
So, I think it is a good idea to discuss what we mean by the Bible. Now, we have a similar thread going on elsewhere, so I don't want to repeat that. But I do think that it is important to note that when Christians speak of the Bible we too mean a book. But we don't mean the book you take off of the shelf. We don't mean the thousands of different translations that it is available in. We mean that collection of writings which, if we had their original autographs, we would collectively hold to be a library of what God wanted the church to have.
I think that sometimes Muslims look at the latter editions of the Bible, the various copies that were produced by scribes, copyists, editors, and publishers and think that is what we mean by the Bible. We don't mean the Bible by those things any more than a Muslim would speak of an interpretation by Yusufali, Picthal, or Shakir as actually being the Qur'an.
On the other hand, I think we Christians forget that different traditions within Christendom do have different sets of books that they consider canonical, and that Muslims do have a point when they ask of Christians, "which Bible?, for the different lists of books suggest that Christianity has more than one view of what is and is not authoritative. The count of "different Bibles" isn't in the thousands as some like to suggest by posting lists naming every type of translation, but there is a difference between Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant canons.
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
Many Christians and Muslims don't realize that in the 2nd century many false "gospels" were written. One group with their own false gospels-gnostics who believed that knowledge is salvation, spirit is good and flesh is evil, they were into asceticism and hedonism. There was a false gospel written about Mary that encouraged the worship of Mary.
The point though is that Christians know which ones are true and which are false, they easlily recognized, they were written too long after the true Gospel, they use language or thoughts that place them at a later date, the church fathers never quoted from or referenced them, etc.
The Council of Jerusalem was called in the early 50'sAD because the of false gospel of legalism was appearing. There was a guestion about uncircumsized Gentiles being able to share the Euharist with circumcised Jews.
Shortly Council of Jerusalem date Christian Gnosticism got started, even though there were Jewish Gnostics before Christianity.
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
Another set of terms that I think we must be careful about are those regarding the Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit. It seems that because in both the Islamic and Christian stories of the conception of Jesus that it is the Angel Gabriel who makes the announcement of her going to have a son, Jesus, and then the Christian Bible says that it happens with the coming of the Holy Spirit upon Mary that she actually become pregnant, therefore some Muslims (certainly not all) infer that the Holy Spirit and the Angel Gabriel might be one and the same.
(Admittedly, I might be incorrectly projecting the reasoning process here, but I do see this conclusion on these threads frequently.)
I think it is important to realize that to Christians these are two completely different beings. Gabriel is an angel and nothing more. The Holy Spirit is one of three persons of the Godhead. I realize that such a thing is shirk to Muslims, so I would be curious as whether or not Muslims even have a concept of God's spirit or a spirit of God (intentionally written with small "s" here) within Islamic teaching?
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
Gossamer yes you say this but go no further- "he keeps using that point, which actually tells me he hasn't read any replies given to him as I specifically stated that there were several instances when the wahy was received or came while others were present"
Did the others hear Gabriel? What did the others that heard Gabriel write? Did they see Gabriel?
"Gabriel pbuh assumed the shape of a man to teach them of their religion."
Interesting that in Islam an angel can assume the shape of a man but GOD is incapable?!? Or is it that He doensn't want to bother with it?
In the Holy Bible the angels always seem to appear in human form.
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Gossamer yes you say this but go no further- "he keeps using that point, which actually tells me he hasn't read any replies given to him as I specifically stated that there were several instances when the wahy was received or came while others were present"
Did the others hear Gabriel? What did the others that heard Gabriel write? Did they see Gabriel?
"Gabriel pbuh assumed the shape of a man to teach them of their religion."
Interesting that in Islam an angel can assume the shape of a man but GOD is incapable?!? Or is it that He doensn't want to bother with it?
In the Holy Bible the angels always seem to appear in human form.
Who said anything about God being 'incapable' .. we have said it is beneath him to be as you ascribe to him!
once you are able to draw the line between creator and creation can we have this conversation, until then, I have no interest in descending to word play!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Maybe defining our terms would lead to better understanding.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Another set of terms that I think we must be careful about are those regarding the Angel Gabriel and the Holy Spirit. It seems that because in both the Islamic and Christian stories of the conception of Jesus that it is the Angel Gabriel who makes the announcement of her going to have a son, Jesus, and then the Christian Bible says that it happens with the coming of the Holy Spirit upon Mary that she actually become pregnant, therefore some Muslims (certainly not all) infer that the Holy Spirit and the Angel Gabriel might be one and the same.
(Admittedly, I might be incorrectly projecting the reasoning process here, but I do see this conclusion on these threads frequently.)
I think it is important to realize that to Christians these are two completely different beings. Gabriel is an angel and nothing more. The Holy Spirit is one of three persons of the Godhead. I realize that such a thing is shirk to Muslims, so I would be curious as whether or not Muslims even have a concept of God's spirit or a spirit of God (intentionally written with small "s" here) within Islamic teaching?
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