Qur'an and the Trinity

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

hmm let's see, how does that prayer go?:



she's called the mother of god!

AND, even though she is neither God, nor alive, they are praying TO her!

making dua IS worship! therefore, they ARE worshiping Mary!

and to elaborate:



source:
http://zenit.org/article-17236?l=english

here the pope is saying that Mary is the equal redemer with with Christ, whom they consider God, ergo, CATHOLICS CONSIDER MARY GOD!

next time you would like to post FACTS, let us know up front if by FACTS you mean LIES! Jack Webb, you are not!

edit: the largest denomination of Christians IS...........Catholic!

Yes, the mother of God title refers to her mothering Jesus. And reread the prayer, it's not praying to Mary but rather asking her to pray.
Also reread what you quoted.
Mary is not a god according to catholic teachings. she is greately respected and considered the best human being ever to walk the earth, more akin to Muhammad in Islam than anything else.

I do not know about you, but it literally pained me to view those persons bowing down before the statue of Mary.

Regards.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

No they don't and yes it is.

we made up these pics?

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

Christians do not believe Mary is a god or a part of the trinity and having Jesus tell them this is useless.

You are quite correct that Christians do not believe Mary is a god nor does anyone believe she is part of the trinity. But, as best as I can tell, that is not the point from an Islamic perspective.

Perhaps you are familiar with the phrase "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and swims like a duck...."? I think that Muslims are looking at our actions more than our words. We may say that Mary is not a duck, or not god. But what they see is a type of adoration that in their thinking is to be reserved only for God. So, regardless of what we say is going on in our minds, they still see it as worship. Thus Christians (or at least those involved in the veneration of Mary) are either guilty of making Mary a God or of worshipping a human being. It's pretty bad either way.

On the other hand, if Muslims would quit judging us and use the standard that they do with one another -- letting God judge what is in one's heart, they would not be as concerned. For God knows that those who venerate Mary are not worshipping her, rather they find that someone she helps them to worship him. Therefore they thank her for this help and seek her continual help in order that they might worship God even better and more fully. But no Christian, however confusing the language and behavior, not even in the above pictures, actually has a heart devoted to Mary in the sense that they perceive her and worship her as God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

You are quite correct that Christians do not believe Mary is a god nor does anyone believe she is part of the trinity. But, as best as I can tell, that is not the point from an Islamic perspective.

Perhaps you are familiar with the phrase "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and swims like a duck...."? I think that Muslims are looking at our actions more than our words. We may say that Mary is not a duck, or not god. But what they see is a type of adoration that in their thinking is to be reserved only for God. So, regardless of what we say is going on in our minds, they still see it as worship. Thus Christians (or at least those involved in the veneration of Mary) are either guilty of making Mary a God or of worshipping a human being. It's pretty bad either way.

On the other hand, if Muslims would quit judging us and use the standard that they do with one another -- letting God judge what is in one's heart, they would not be as concerned. For God knows that those who venerate Mary are not worshipping her, rather they find that someone she helps them to worship him. Therefore they thank her for this help and seek her continual help in order that they might worship God even better and more fully. But no Christian, however confusing the language and behavior, not even in the above pictures, actually has a heart devoted to Mary in the sense that they perceive her and worship her as God.

For God knows that those who venerate Mary are not worshipping her, rather they find that someone she helps them to worship him. Therefore they thank her for this help and seek her continual help in order that they might worship God even better and more fully. But no Christian, however confusing the language and behavior, not even in the above pictures, actually has a heart devoted to Mary in the sense that they perceive her and worship her as God.

so she hears them answers them, helps them?

format_quote Originally Posted by doorster

oh nearly forgot about this practice; where when people cross themselves on the chest while uttering the words "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph" (no mention of god the father or god the holy ghost)

you may also have come across letterheads with initials "J.M.J"

Can you tell me more about who does this? I don't know of any persons who cross themselves after the manner you cite. I do know people who cross themselves on the chest while repeating the phrase, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen."

I am also unfamiliar with the use of the initials J.M.J.

format_quote Originally Posted by doorster

so she hears them answers them, helps them?

That is what those who follow that practice think.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

i was raised Catholic genius boy. i KNOW the prayer. IN IT, you are calling on a dead person. she can't hear, she can't help. to us, THAT is worship! the same with praying to the saints.

what it is to you, who cares? we don't define things by your will or thoughts.

And that is the important point. Muslims don't define themselves or their understanding of worship by Catholic (or any other non-Islamic) standards. And Catholics don't define themselves or their understanding of worship according to Islam (or any other non-Catholic) standards.

Thus we have two different definitions of worship by two different groups. We are never going to have agreement as to which is right. The best we can hope for, in the spirit of understanding, is to recognize these other understandings are the ones that are indeed practiced by their respective faith communities. To say that the other is wrong might be the most likely felt response when trying to lead someone from error into truth, but it probably is the least likely way to earn any sort of real hearing if that is what we are interested.

it is christians ignorance of other religions other than their own. for example, i had a baptist christian who was running down not only my religion of islam but also my family's religion of catholicism. he said that islam worships a "moon god" because thats what he learned in his church and that catholics worship mary. i have been to church all my life (and am still forced to go even though i dont want to because of my mom) and i will say first that catholics don't worship mary. and CERTAINTLY i do not worship a moon god!! this is so stupid, churches should really do research on what their talking about before they start educating their followers against other religions.

format_quote Originally Posted by seeker-of-light

churches should really do research on what their talking about before they start educating their followers against other religions.

They can't do that without losing most of their ammunition; why let actual facts get in the way? To be fair, though, you say 'churches', but it's just as true of some clerics for both other Christian denominations and other religions, including yours and mine.

format_quote Originally Posted by seeker-of-light

i will say first that catholics don't worship mary. .

peace be upon you

Sister, seeker-of-light

I think you missed the point under discussion

What is the point under discussion?

It is what is the meaning of taking (someone,something) as god (shirk)....

In Islamic terms :

1-To think of he,she,it as the creator.

or

2-To put (him,her,it) in the process of worship (which is none of his business).

The first term is valid to be applied to all Trinitarians.

the second to be applied to the Catholics ,whether they pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help eg;

We turn to you for protection,Holy Mother of God.Listen to our prayersand help us in our needs,Save us from every danger,Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless.
(Thousands of such prayer to be found on online)

or asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help eg;

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners.

both terms are acts that violates the definitions of monotheism according to Islam...

In other words Catholics takes Mary as god by praying directly to her asking for help,or by asking her for intercession...

The same way some sufi would take a so called (Wali) as god by asking him ,by his tomb for direct help or intercession
---------------------------------------------

peace

format_quote Originally Posted by seeker-of-light

it is christians ignorance of other religions other than their own. for example, i had a baptist christian who was running down not only my religion of islam but also my family's religion of catholicism. he said that islam worships a "moon god" because thats what he learned in his church and that catholics worship mary. i have been to church all my life (and am still forced to go even though i dont want to because of my mom) and i will say first that catholics don't worship mary. and CERTAINTLY i do not worship a moon god!! this is so stupid, churches should really do research on what their talking about before they start educating their followers against other religions.

Yep, there are indeed some Christians who have swallowed these lies. I don't know who began them, but many of the more fundamentalist see anything that is not identical to their own way of worship as being not just different but wrong.

Tell you what I can do. If you promise to witness among your Islamic brothers and sisters your own personal knowledge that Catholics do not worship Mary. I can and will witness among my Christian brothers and sisters my own personal knowledge that Muslims do not worship a moon god.


This is going to be harder than it sounds, for Imam makes a valid point that for many Muslims the degree of devotion that many Catholics show for Mary may not be intended as worship from a Catholic's perspective, but is nevertheless seen as an act of worship by many Muslims, even when fully explained. And I'll have to deal with the same thing, as many Baptists and other fundamentalists Christians, using their own definitions of what constitutes worship, see the actions of those who make the pilgrimage to Mecca as evidence of worship to a moon god, even though such thoughts are not in the minds of any of those who participate in the Hajj.

format_quote Originally Posted by Imam

Thank you for your note .....now I got where the problem

I concentrated only on the word (deities) in the verse in all translations and that is why I missed translation of Shakir

where is the problem

Shakir:
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah.

The word (men doon) من دون in the verse


‏5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب

translated by shakir as (besides) while it means literally

instead of ,apart from ,without ,other than .....



And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'

Other examples of the same word in the Quran:

PICKTHAL:043.086 And those unto whom they cry instead of(men doon) Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.

10.018 They serve, apart from God(men doon), what hurts them not neither profits them, and they say, 'These are our intercessors with God.' Say: 'Will you tell God what He knows not either in the heavens or in the earth?' Glory be to Him! High be He exalted above that they associate!

36:23What, shall I take, apart from(men doon) Him, gods whose intercession, if the All-merciful desires affliction for me, shall not avail me anything, and who will never deliver me?

6:51 And warn with it those who fear to be brought before their Lord that they have no guardian or intercessor, other than Allah(men doon), in order that they are cautious.

53:57
The final judgement draws near.none except Allah(men doon) can disclose it.

6:108 Abuse not those to whom they pray, apart from God(men doon), or they will abuse God in revenge without knowledge.


There are other verses ...but I think those are enough to convey the fact....

Question : what is the proper word to convey the meaning of (besides,with) and hence gives the meaning of a trinity of (father,son,Mary)?

It is the word (m3a) which means (besides ,with)...
and it is mentioned in the Quran in the same context:

27:60
امن خلق السماوات والارض وانزل لكم من السماء ماء فانبتنا به حدائق ذات بهجة ما كان لكم ان تنبتوا شجرها االه مع الله بل هم قوم يعدلون

Look how all the translators translated it :

Yusuf Ali Or, Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends you down rain from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty of delight: it is not in your power to cause the growth of the trees in them. (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, they are a people who swerve from justice.

Pickthal Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sendeth down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never hath been yours to cause to grow. Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)!

Arberry He who created the heavens and earth, and sent down for you out of heaven water; and We caused to grow therewith gardens full of loveliness whose trees you could never grow. Is there a god with God? Nay, but they are a people who assign to Him equals!

Shakir Nay, He Who created the heavens and the earth, and sent down for you water from the cloud; then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens; it is not possible for you that you should make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! they are people who deviate.

Sarwar (Are the idols worthier or) the One who has created the heavens and the earth, who has sent water from the sky for you, who has established delightful gardens and you could not even plant one tree? Is there any Lord besides God? In fact, the unbelievers are the ones who deviate from the right path.

Khalifa Who is the One who created the heavens and the earth? Who is the One who sends down to you from the sky water, whereby we produce gardens full of beauty - you could not possibly manufacture its trees? Is it another god with GOD? Indeed, they are people who have deviated.

Hilali/Khan Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!

H/K/Saheeh [More precisely], is He [not best] who created the heavens and the earth and sent down for you rain from the sky, causing to grow thereby gardens of joyful beauty which you could not [otherwise] have grown the trees thereof? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but they are a people who ascribe equals [to Him].

Malik Is not He (Allah), Who has created the heavens and the earth, sends down rain from the sky and with it brings forth the beautiful gardens not better than the false gods that they worship? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of trees for those gardens. Is there another god besides Allah who could do that? No doubt they are a people who have swerved from justice in ascribing equals to Him.[60]

QXP Nay, who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the sky? And with it We cause to spring forth beautiful orchards. It was never of your doing to make the trees in them grow - any god beside Allah? Nay, they who think so are people who are deviating (from reality).

Maulana Ali Or, Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the cloud? Then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens -- it is not possible for you to make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay, they are a people who deviate!

Free Minds The One who created the heavens and the Earth, and He sent down water from the sky for you, so We cause gardens to grow with it that are full of beauty. It is not your ability to cause the growth of its trees. Is there a god with God? No. But they are a people who ascribe equals!

Qaribullah Is He who created the heavens and the earth, and sent water from the sky for you and caused gardens to grow full of beauty of which its tree you could never grow, is there a god with Allah? No, but they are a nation who set up equals with Him!



And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto People, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said,

what people in the verse refers to?

The verse simply tells a scene of day of judgment:

Allah will ask Jesus;

Did you preach TO THE PEOPLE that you and your mother are gods apart from God?





Let them teach whatever they like ,but we let the prayer to Mary speak of itself:

Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, Help of Christians, we place ourselves under your motherly protection. Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying.


"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.

Mary, all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.


surely the catholics don't believe in Mary as God the creator but the previous sample of prayers shows what violates the definition of Monotheism according to Islam.....
7:197 Whomever you call instead of Him, have no power to help you, nor can they help themselves.

Call our Islamic view of monothiesm as strict (as some christians say).

our terms of our strict monotheism is simple .... 1-to believe in a unique and indivisible being who is independent of the creation,and has no persons .
2- to direct the worship at him and only him without any mediator of any kind.



go to the previous verses In the post to see how many saints(and other false gods too) is mentioned.




It is done before

5:77 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Surah 4: 169. O ye people of the Book! do not exceed in your religion, nor say against God aught save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, is but the apostle of God and His Word, which He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him; believe then in God and His apostles, and say not "Three." Have done! it were better for you. God is only one God,


you have seen ,the Quran condemns them in their terminology (three persons in one God) ,and condemns them and other religions too in other terms (the issue of the worship and intercession)....


why no verse mentions the holy spirit by name as being god?

,cause the Quran concentrate on the act of worship ....
though the holy spirit is part of the so called trinity ,yet no christian ever direct his prayer to the holy spirit , he rather resort to the physical beings(which he has imaginary pictures of them in his mind) so he pray, ask Jesus etc... to support him by such holy spirit....

not to pray for the holy spirit to support him with Jesus...

peace

where can i find all these translations online??