I keep seeing Christians (mostly Catholics) beating this dead horse where they accuse the Qur'an of depicting the Virgin Mary to be part of the Trinity. When I read these two Surah's that supposedly depicts this accusation I fail to see the connection.
Sahih International Translation:
An-Nisa:
171: "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."
Al-Maeda:
72: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."
73: "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."
74: "So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
75: "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded."
116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen".
So am I right in my assumption that the Qur'an doesn't depict the Virgin Mary as part of the Trinity and the error comes from translation or have I missed something and the Qur'an does suggest such a thing?
many Baptists and other fundamentalists Christians, using their own definitions of what constitutes worship, see the actions of those who make the pilgrimage to Mecca as evidence of worship to a moon god, even though such thoughts are not in the minds of any of those who participate in the Hajj.
That is another issue,and no reason to make analogy here
you confuse the argument of (supposed origin of a religion) with (the accord of the ritual of a religion with monotheism)
Muslims don't have at their homes some statues of moon god who pray to,asking them for help or intercession to Yhwh ,giving you the chance to call them ,not true monotheist and not worshiping the true Yhwh.......
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
for Imam makes a valid point that for many Muslims the degree of devotion that many Catholics show for Mary may not be intended as worship from a Catholic's perspective, but is nevertheless seen as an act of worship by many Muslims, even when fully explained.
.
Why even if fully explained still Muslims, most Protestants ,other sects in Christianity condemn the act ?
Cause it's reasonable to ask if words and actions are consistent..
Calling something by a different name does not change its nature.
format_quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
What is observed in the prayers to Mary and the Marian festivals is worship by whatever name the church chooses to call it. . They would claim that they do not worship her (Mary), they just venerate her. This is a distinction without a difference, since they do pray to her and give her a form of worship.
.
format_quote Originally Posted by A Sermon By Pastor Deacon Fred
Dear brothers and sisters, it's not too hard to see. These folks are still more pagan than Christian. Only now, their favorite goddess is Mary, the mother of Jesus. They try to be politically correct and say things like, "We don't pray to Mary, we just give her homage or ask her to run off and take our prayers to Jesus when He's too busy to hear them." Well, what the heck's the ding dang difference? Catholics are no better than pagans or Wiccans, praying to stone statues and trees..
- The Bible reserves this sort of language for God alone. To give what is due to God to another is idolatry, it is false worship. The term "Maryolatry" seems an appropriate label for the Catholic practices...
format_quote Originally Posted by The Roman Catholic Observer
There, my dear Catholic friends, are the unquestionable facts. Will you continue to pray to Mary when that practice contradicts God's own Word? If so, why? Are you aware of how serious a matter it is to perform such worship as God condemns? Will you risk your immortal soul just to satisfy the whims of Rome?
Do Catholics Worship Mary?
Having, for all practical purposes, removed God's Second Commandment, Rome found herself in the position of having to cover her tracks. After all, a church that worships Mary, numerous dead people (called 'saints') and a wafer of bread, must redirect attention and strive to justify her idolatry.
To be sure, Rome categorically denies that Catholics worship Mary. What they do is to dissimulate. . . to assign and re-define other terms for the worship they offer to her. Rome's deceptive claim is that she "worships God, but only venerates Mary and the saints." To get an accurate picture, we need to examine both secular and 'sacred' (i.e., official Catholic) documentation.
To accomplish her deception, Rome invented her own form of 'correctspeak.' She did this by redefining terms that all mean one thing-worship. Rome uses "worship" with respect to God, or Jesus Christ, and "venerate" with respect to Mary and dead people. . . as if "venerate" had a completely different meaning than "worship." Nice try, but it does not wash. Fortunately, however, Rome also uses the term "worship" directly with respect to Mary, thus putting the lie to her dissimulation. .
format_quote Originally Posted by Mary Ann Collins (former catholic nun)
If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary. We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible. We sang songs in Mary’s honor. We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her. These were small processions. At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the Hail Holy Queen, which is known in Latin as the Salve Regina. It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn’t this sound like worship?
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” .
format_quote Originally Posted by John MacArthur
In Catholicism it is the false goddess named Mary through whom all graces, all blessings, all divine works pass to people. No one can be saved, no one can be blessed unless Mary intercedes. She is presented as all-knowing, all-wise, all-merciful, everywhere present and all-powerful, attributes which belong only to God.
For two weeks now, we have considered what the Catholic Church says about Mary, this goddess that they worship. We have looked in particular at the historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus Delaguarie who wrote The Glories of Mary in the year 1745 which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church. In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due. She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation. It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven.
Despite denials by Roman Catholic apologists, Mary is worshiped. In fact, Mary is the main god in Roman Catholicism which is nothing more than the worship of a non-existent goddess who usurps the glory and the worship that is due only to God
we considered the history of Roman Catholic devotion to Mary. From the Church’s own statements through all the centuries of its existence we looked at the attributes of Mary, we looked at elements that belong only to God that belong to her. .
format_quote Originally Posted by jesus is Lord
Blasphemy 102: Mary Worship Angers God
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN...that they may provoke me to anger.
Jeremiah 7:18
Did you know that the catholic religion calls Mary the QUEEN OF HEAVEN? For more on the wicked QUEEN OF HEAVEN and what God thinks of this false god, read Jeremiah 44 where the Israelites were PUNISHED for worshipping her.
Let's continue our look into darkness--the worship of Mary as the queen of heaven and CO-REDEEMER with JESUS CHRIST [Lord have mercy, Jesus]. First of all, the Mary of the Catholic religion is NOT the Mary of the Bible. They have simply taken her name and superimposed it on top of a pre-existing goddess. The above passage from Jeremiah was written hundreds of years BEFORE Mary was born--the queen of heaven was already being worshipped and the people were making God mad. This is the Bible talking, we're not looking at history books, we are looking at God's holy word. Blessed be the Lord Who hath preserved His word so that we don't have to be deceived.
I've heard Catholics say things like, "I don't really pray to Mary, I just talk to her. She helps me and she can talk to Jesus for me." What is praying but talking to the Lord? Where do you read in the Bible that you are supposed to ask Mary for anything? You can't find that command anywhere in the Bible because we are supposed to ask Jesus Christ Himself.
But the new catechism has changed things." No it hasn't. The Catholic religion is the same heretical cult, leading its followers straight to hell.
-------------------------------
I have quoted such christian quotes ( I still have hundreds from the same kind) cause I felt that the christians in the thread(Greenvile is the exception) would try to give the impression that only Muslims who condemn the act.
Holy Quran 10:18 They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"
Originally Posted by A Sermon By Pastor Deacon Fred
Dear brothers and sisters, it's not too hard to see. These folks are still more pagan than Christian. Only now, their favorite goddess is Mary, the mother of Jesus. They try to be politically correct and say things like, "We don't pray to Mary, we just give her homage or ask her to run off and take our prayers to Jesus when He's too busy to hear them." Well, what the heck's the ding dang difference? Catholics are no better than pagans or Wiccans, praying to stone statues and trees..
whatever he may ever be ,his statement and the (other non-catholic christian ) quotes I posted ,proved the point,
Muslims are not alone in condemning the catholic act.
whatever he may ever be ,his statement and the (other non-catholic christian ) quotes I posted ,proved the point,
Muslims are not alone in condemning the catholic act.
He parodies pastors.
Of course not, but Muslimsare the only ones that claim Mary has a god status in catholicism.
Non-Catholic christians may disagree with the Catholic veneration of Mary, but they have never claimed Catholic believed Mary a part of the trinity or anything remotely similar.
Quran says Jesus will tell the Christians he never said Mary and him were a part of the trinity, eventhough nobody believes that. I'd udnerstand him saying he never told anyone to revere Mary or say praxers for her. Something that Christians can actually understand and reflect upon.
Non-Catholic christians may disagree with the Catholic veneration of Mary, but they have never claimed Catholic believed Mary a part of the trinity or anything remotely similar.
neither the Quran nor the christian quotes ever mention that Mary a part of the trinity ,It is you and some other christians impose such concept on the Quran.
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Quran says Jesus will tell the Christians he never said Mary and him were a part of the trinity.
you still insist on that !
well, this time I have a simple copy and paste task
5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'
Non-Catholic christians may disagree with the Catholic veneration of Mary, but they have never claimed Catholic believed Mary a part of the trinity or anything remotely similar.
Quran says Jesus will tell the Christians he never said Mary and him were a part of the trinity, eventhough nobody believes that. I'd udnerstand him saying he never told anyone to revere Mary or say praxers for her. Something that Christians can actually understand and reflect upon.
You are being both stubborn and ridiculous.
I believe Imam has showed enough evidence(from christians) to prove his point that catholics venerate Mary to a Godly status, regardless of being in a trinity or not, and the Qur'an doesn't mention Mary being in a trinity since the trinity states that the 3 persons are all one in the same and the Qur'an doesn't even barely mention that so quit arguing with that point.
Now I wonder, even the christians of today can't grasp the concept of trinity, isn't possible that there could have been misunderstandings back in the old times about the concept.
neither the Quran nor the christian quotes ever mention that Mary a part of the trinity ,It is you and some other christians impose such concept on the Quran.
you still insist on that !
well, this time I have a simple copy and paste task
5:116 واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto people, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?'
You are being both stubborn and ridiculous.
I believe Imam has showed enough evidence(from christians) to prove his point that catholics venerate Mary to a Godly status, regardless of being in a trinity or not, and the Qur'an doesn't mention Mary being in a trinity since the trinity states that the 3 persons are all one in the same and the Qur'an doesn't even barely mention that so quit arguing with that point.
Now I wonder, even the christians of today can't grasp the concept of trinity, isn't possible that there could have been misunderstandings back in the old times about the concept.
The point is that they do not think Mary is god, is it more important what they do or what thy think? Jesus's words described in the verse would be meaningless to them, just as if someone asked you whether you think Muhammad is a god.
is it more important what they do or what thy think? .
It is important that what they think to be consistent with what they do.
If such inconsistency to be tolerated with the Catholics, then every pagan religious system would be valid and consistent with true monotheism...
under your line of reasoning, none gonna blame me if I buy a cute golden statue tomorrow , involving such statue in my prayer day and night..... and forgettting about Allah gradually !!!
Cause it's reasonable to ask if words and actions are consistent..
Calling something by a different name does not change its nature.
Agreed. But whether you like the comparison or not, and I certainly disagree with their conclusions, but if for the very reason that you here cite with regard to substantiating your view that Catholics venerate Mary to the point of treating her as if she were a god, even if they don't say it in so many words that some of these other more fundamentalist Christian groups make the same accusation with regard to Islam and the rituals that take place with regard to the Kaba. They see this as acts of worship directed at something other than God.
LOL, Kaaba is a part of the Sacred Mosque structure and it is actually a marker of direction to pray, not an idol although pagan Arabs had once put 360 idols there during the Dark Age after Ishmael had gone.
WHY MUSLIM WORSHIP KAABA? FIRST PART
My warm greeting to muslim brothers... As I had encountered before, many of my Christian friends asking me why Muslims worshiping Kaaba? Why there are people surrounding the Kaaba? and etc. So, with the permission of G-d. I will explain to the viewers of this blog especially to non-Muslim friends who are curious about Kaaba... Hopefully that it would be helping you concerning the questions about Kaaba, with the permission of G-d.
As we already know, Kaaba is the quibla or the direction where Muslims are facing their face when they are performing daily prayers. Important to be stated here that when they direct their faces to Kaaba, they are not actually praying to the Kaaba. Muslim only bowing and prostrate to G-d.
Surah al-Baqarah
144. We see the turning of Thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to Quibla that shall please thee. Turn thy face in the direction of Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in the direction. The people of the Book (Christian and Jews) know well that it is the Truth from their Lord. Nor is G-d unmindful of what they do.
(Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)
Surah Al-Baqarah 2:144 ada menyebut :
1) Islam teaches Unity.
As an example: if Muslims who want to pray, some of them might be facing to the North direction, or some maybe facing South. To unite all Muslims regarding the acts of worship to G-d the One and wherever we are, Muslims are obliged to face the direction of Kaaba and Centralized only there. If a Muslim live in West of Kaaba direction, they will be facing Eest whenever they want to perform prayers. The same thing too happened if the Muslims living East of Kaaba, they will be facing West to the direction of Kaaba. Everywhere we are, in Japan, Russia, Germany, and etc, we only turn our face to the direction of Kaaba when we performing prayers and reciting supplications.
2) Kaaba is geographically located in the middle of World Map
Muslims first world map cartographer had sketched the world map with the Southern direction pointed up while North pointed down. Kaaba is in the middle. Later, Western cartographer sketched the directions in opposite direction, but Kaaba is still in the middle.
The act of surrounding Kaaba, which is walking 7 rounds is does not mean Muslim praying to the cubical building. It is a symbolic act of worship to G-d in the ritual of pilgrimage Hajj and Omrah. Even if the cubical black building is not there we will still walking around (Thawaf) that marked area and turning our faces to the direction of Kaaba. It is our first direction of prayer since the time of Abraham, but after the time of Moses G-d changed it to Jerusalem as the prophets were raised among the Children of Jacob (Israel). Later in the time of prophet Muhammad, G-d ordered Muslim to turn back to the direction to Kaaba in the Sacred Mosque when performing prayers and supplication.
I do see some Christians revering mother Mary and other Saints for their intercession. There are plenty of Tarannim seeking mother Mary intercession. But I don't think that it is in all Christian sects. Maybe certain sects, correct me if I'm wrong. Mother of god sounds Orthodox to me, but I don't know if it is also revered in Catholicism. So many anathemize series happened in Early Church times because of this definition of theotokos and christotokos, quite complicated. Well, I'm comfortable with Islamic view about Mary as the mother of Jesus the prophet and she is an Israeli.
some of these other more fundamentalist Christian groups make the same accusation with regard to Islam and the rituals that take place with regard to the Kaba. They see this as acts of worship directed at something other than God.
But don't you think they have to provide some words of Muslims prayers at KAba,or some acts affirms that their worship directed at something other than God?
If you accuse someone you should have more than guesswork , we have against the Catholics proofs from their prayers .
what is there in Muslims rituals at the Kaba suggest that they are not true monotheists?
The following verse simply states that someone believes that Jesus said to worship Mary-which I have pointed out on another thread, may come from the false gospel written at a later date then the true Gospel.
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
The word Trinity is never mentioned in the Quran, just the word 3. Is it 3 gods? Then that is false for there was never a worship of 3 gods in Christianity.
004.171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector .
Imam - I understand that you are not, but what makes it appear as such: kissing the black stone, the bowing, the circumabulating with just the direction changed from pagan times at a temple that was used to house pagan gods, throwing away the sins at the posts or stoning satan, etc.
The actions of the Muslim on pilgramage speaks louder then their words- just as the actions of the Catholic are speaking louder then their words.
As a protestant I view Mary as a very good example of a GOD fearing and obeying women. She was the mother to Jesus, the human form housing GOD's incarnate WORD.
The black stone is not to be kissed like kissing G-d or kissing the gods (demons) that dwell in the stone or respecting the god in the stone. It is not G-d or idol at all, just a marker of circumambulation unit ends. It has no power to change human destiny and etc. Kissing Hajarul Aswad is categorized under Sunnah or prophet tradition. See what our master, Caliph Umar al-Khattab said about the stone:
"No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."
Kissing it makes us feel like we kiss the cheek of our prophet because he had kissed the stone during he performed Hajj and Omra ritual there. Also makes us feeling close to our father, Abraham.
There is historical events in Islam concerning the stone. We always refer back to our articles of faith as what had been concluded in short surahs of Quran which are included under six pillars of creed when we performing the acts of worship and living up our daily life.
further information about the black stone, you can just wiki it or trying to find Islamic blogs in various languages, you may choose any language you understand.
The mosque prior to pagan Arab times is the house of G-d build by Abraham and Ishmael. Only later the Arabs who were influenced by idolater Phonecians in the North had defiled the sanctity of the pure house by placing idols there. I had already provided the source of history in Ishmael thread about Kaaba and Holy City Mecca, and also the story about Abraham and Ishmael in Islam.
Last edited by malayloveislam; 06-04-2009 at 01:04 PM.
The following verse simply states that someone believes that Jesus said to worship Mary.
The verse states the opposite ,that someone(God) knows that Jesus never said to worship Mary,yet Catholics ?(the answer in the previous posts).
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
The word Trinity is never mentioned in the Quran, just the word 3.
yes it doesn't say Christians SAY we believe in three Gods ,and that is one of the accurate uses of the language in the Quran...
The verse tells :
Don't say three ?
God the father
and
God the son
and
God the holy spirit
why?
because there is only one indivisible God.
Christians never say we believe in three gods but Trinity says it.
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
what makes it appear as such: kissing the black stone, the bowing, the circumnavigating with just the direction changed from pagan times at a temple that was used to house pagan gods, throwing away the sins at the posts or stoning satan, etc..
1-the kissing of the black stone:
is neither an act of prayer nor act of intercession,while the catholic issue with Mary involved with both.
2- the bowing:
If bowing to idol asking it for help or intercession,there we go the discussion.
3- the circumnavigating with just the direction changed from pagan times at a temple that was used to house pagan gods:
If you could negate the traditions (is supported by proofs) that this location was originally established for monotheistic rituals,there we go the discussion.
Holy Quran 2:125 Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Islam came to refresh the worship in such sacred place ,and put an end to the pagan corruption of such monotheistic place .
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