While procrastinating during my study time I was thinking...
How come I have never heard an atheist say, I was outside on a beautiful summers day gazing at the greenery when I said to myself, "There is no God."
It always seems to be:
1. I saw suffering
2. These people acted evil and hurt me or someone else
3. The world is a bad place
4. There can't be anything on the other side, we're just animals and will turn to dust.
On the contrary, people who become Muslims or Christians mention:
1. Someone did good to me or someone else
2. The heavens and the earth so beautiful and complex
3. There has to be something out there, we're not just animals, we have eternal souls.
Seems like more often than not, atheism sprouts from negativity, while theism from positivity.
Now you may say that you "logically arrived" at atheism, but new theists would say the exact same thing about their views. This doesn't change the pattern of negativity and positivity that I mentioned above.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 04-18-2009 at 11:28 PM.
Allah is perfect. He is not like any of His creation. , and a muslim is NOT allowed to compare Allah with any of his creatures.
Evidence please.
Are you even aware how illogical and nonsensical that statement is? A perfect being cannot make an imperfect creation as that is a sign that it is imperfect itself.
No man can withstand the sight or presence of Allah (SWT) AND he got angels to do that
Evidence please.
Angels, mythological beings that rank along with sprites and fairies. Taken from christian myth and grafted onto islamic myth. No evidence that these beings even exist, along with spirits and fairies.
he give final report card A = Paradise F= HELL Pays you with all you desires=paradise pays you with pain and fire =hell
Evidence please.
Hell, again another myth taken from christian myth and incorporated into islamic mythology. The parent religion to christianity and islam, judaism, had no hell. the whole cocept was taken from pagan mythology.
Nope He created it He dont need to visit it it belongs to Him just like you do
Evidence please
I expect you will say the qur'an is evidence. Well I hate to burst your little faith bubble, but no it isn't. It is as about as realible as any other holy book. open to different interpretations, translation and errors.
Everyone knows that the universe was created by the FSM, may his noodley appendage touch you.
I have posted numerous times on this thread. But I tend to explain more on this post. Here is a scenerio: A happy muslim who thanks Allah ,why would he be doubting his religion. He would instead thank it with more prayers because his life is going alhumdulilah so well.
Evidence please.
Are you even aware how illogical and nonsensical that statement is? A perfect being cannot make an imperfect creation as that is a sign that it is imperfect itself.
Evidence please.
Angels, mythological beings that rank along with sprites and fairies. Taken from christian myth and grafted onto islamic myth. No evidence that these beings even exist, along with spirits and fairies.
Evidence please.
Hell, again another myth taken from christian myth and incorporated into islamic mythology. The parent religion to christianity and islam, judaism, had no hell. the whole cocept was taken from pagan mythology.
Evidence please
I expect you will say the qur'an is evidence. Well I hate to burst your little faith bubble, but no it isn't. It is as about as realible as any other holy book. open to different interpretations, translation and errors.
Everyone knows that the universe was created by the FSM, may his noodley appendage touch you.
I see you have come to this forum with a negative attitude. Condescension, sarcasm, and ignorance.
Fine then. Bring it.
1. What is an imperfection to you, is a perfection to another. And there is no reason why a perfect being cant willingly make something imperfect.
2. What we believe as evidence, you dismiss as myth, as evidenced from the beginning of your post. There is no evidence about what really happened before the big bang but we know it was there.
3. I need evidence that it came from pagan myth. So... Evidence please!
4. And of course you end your post with your opinion, sprinkled with mockery.
Now let me lay down some rules. If you wish to be taken seriously and not insulted. Learn to show respect when speaking with others. Or did you lose your manners when you lost your faith?
Moreover, stating "evidence please" when you load every sentence of yours with opinion and conspiracy theories about religion is laughable.
I'm trying to keep my tongue in check while typing this so please show some manners or else you'll just be dismissed as another angry atheist who thinks he has religion figured out when in actuality he knows less than even a braindead fundamentalist.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 06-20-2009 at 09:42 PM.
Evidence please.
Are you even aware how illogical and nonsensical that statement is? A perfect being cannot make an imperfect creation as that is a sign that it is imperfect itself.
If the author of a book writes an evil character, is the author evil?
Evidence please.
Angels, mythological beings that rank along with sprites and fairies. Taken from christian myth and grafted onto islamic myth. No evidence that these beings even exist, along with spirits and fairies.
Existence of proof is not proof of existence. Do not play that game.
Evidence please
I expect you will say the qur'an is evidence. Well I hate to burst your little faith bubble, but no it isn't.
Theists already prove it soley on numbers game; 84% to 16%. What's population statistic of athiest? Something like 10% of current? Far as I am concerned, you got all the proof you need, plus several holy books.
So with that in mind, how about you give me a good reason, with evidence to suggest, why you are right as an athiest. Cus right now, this kind of debate favours thiests (thats me) - not athiest (which would be you). I have population stats (i.e reality, i.e 86% of global population) on my side; you got nothing, so you really need to start bringing stuff to the table before you dare question my religion.
It is as about as realible as any other holy book. open to different interpretations, translation and errors.
That's why you're supposed to read it in ARABIC (i.e it's purist form)
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
[QUOTE=AntiKarateKid;1172149]I see you have come to this forum with a negative attitude. Condescension, sarcasm, and ignorance.[/QUIOTE]
I ask for evidence for assertions and you take them as condescension, sarcasm, and ignorance. Touchy, aren't you?
Fine then. Bring it.
1. What is an imperfection to you, is a perfection to another. And there is no reason why a perfect being cant willingly make something imperfect.
How would a perfect being know what imperfection is? Simple question. Its very nature shows that it has no understanding of imperfection.
2. What we believe as evidence, you dismiss as myth, as evidenced from the beginning of your post. There is no evidence about what really happened before the big bang but we know it was there.
Yes we do, but you and me have no evidence whatsoever of what was before. I am willing to accept that, you aren't.
3. I need evidence that it came from pagan myth. So... Evidence please!
Here are three:
“The pyramid texts composed by the priests of Heliopolis for the tombs of the V Dynasty c.2400 BC show [were first historical record of an idea of heaven and hell] This invention of the hell/heaven sanction by the Egyptians has been of the highest significance in subsequent moral control, and in Egypt, as with most other societies, its function was to support the monarchy”
"A History of Sin" by Oliver Thomson, p66
Note that this predates even Judaism.
Hebrew.
“The word translated as "hell" in the New Testament comes from the Hebrew word "Gehenna". Gehenna meant "the valley of Hinnom", and was originally a particular valley outside Jerusalem, where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch (2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chron. 28:3;Jer. 32:35). In later Jewish literature Gehenna came to be associated with a place of torment and unquenchable fire that was to be the punishment for sinners. It was thought by many that lesser sinners might eventually be delivered from the fires of Gehenna, but by New Testament times punishment for sinners was deemed to be eternal.”
"Bible Facts" by Jenny Roberts
Hell in the Koran [3]
"The Koran refers to the seven heavens (17.46; 23.88; 41:11; 65:12), a notion also found in Chegiga 9.2. In the Koran, hell is said to have seven divisions or portals (15.44); in Zohar 2.150 we find the same description. These notions go back to old Indo-Iranian sources, because in both Hindu and Zoroastrian scriptures we find the seven creations and seven heavens. [...] In sura 43.76 we find reference to Malik as the keeper of hell who presides over the tortures of the ****ed; similarly the Jews talk of the Prince of Hell. Malik is obviously a corruption of the Fire God of the Ammonites, Molech, mentioned in Leviticus,1 Kings, and Jeremiah."
"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq p48
My bold
4. And of course you end your post with your opinion, sprinkled with mockery.
The FSM is always good to try and lighten the mood.
Now let me lay down some rules. If you wish to be taken seriously and not insulted. Learn to show respect when speaking with others. Or did you lose your manners when you lost your faith?
I never had a faith to lose. My parents were liberal when it came to religion, although my father does identify himself as a christian.
As for respect, I will try, but I have noticed that the respect seems to only go one way for some people of faith based boards. I have seen muslims members on this borad threaten hell and eternal ****ation of non-belivers. Hardly respect. I will not do ad hom attacks, only your beliefs. To gain respects you must earn it, and as an atheist I have had very little from theists
Moreover, stating "evidence please" when you load every sentence of yours with opinion and conspiracy theories about religion is laughable.
All I ask for is evidence, how is that conspiracy and opinion? If I came on this board proclaiming that Amon-ra is the true god of creation, you would ask for evidence. It works both ways.
I'm trying to keep my tongue in check while typing this so please show some manners or else you'll just be dismissed as another angry atheist who thinks he has religion figured out when in actuality he knows less than even a braindead fundamentalist.
Glad you see fundies as braindead.
I am not an angry atheist, and I have quite a bit of knowledge of comparative religions and mythology. You have a tendency to be if you are an atheist, although I will admit that my knowledge of christianity is greater than islam. Christian are more anti-atheist than muslims, though I have come across some rather obnoxious muslims of other boards, but none that match a particular evangelical preacher. According to him muslims are all sons of satan.
Theists already prove it soley on numbers game; 84% to 16%. What's population statistic of athiest? Something like 10% of current? Far as I am concerned, you got all the proof you need, plus several holy books.
You are seriously going to base your argument on the ad populum fallacy?
Is this a serious question? I can think of many beliefs that hurt the people holding them, in and out of religious context. You can not?
Your beliefs cannot hurt you unless they work through some sort of event in your life. For example, a Muslim girl can't marry a non-muslim. This wont hurt her if she was never attracted to any non-muslims.
You are seriously going to base your argument on the ad populum fallacy?
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
Sorry if I have missed something but what is this 80:20 ratio?
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
Oh yes they do. Theists have made the claim that a god or gods exist. Now provide the relevant evidence to back up such and extrordinary claim. Burden of proof is on you, not the atheist. Argument from Popularity is a fallacious argument.
Sorry if I have missed something but what is this 80:20 ratio?
Population statistic of thiest vs athiest
format_quote Originally Posted by Hyuio
Oh yes they do. Theists have made the claim that a god or gods exist. Now provide the relevant evidence to back up such and extrordinary claim. Burden of proof is on you, not the atheist. Argument from Popularity is a fallacious argument.
You were asking evidence for God; yet you're the minority in this argument. 80% say yes He exists, 20% say no He doesn't. On that basis, you are on back-foot; you need to tell me why you go against the grain; not why I follow it.
Plus, your entire way of life (i.e athiesm) is being defined by mine (thiesm) anyway; so would you mind telling me why you deserve to ride on the back of MY gravy train and then demand I prove my beliefs to you!? Heck, by your rules stated above (thiests have to prove God), you would therefore HAVE to disprove God!
If you were agnostic, fine this wouldn't be a problem - but you're a staunch athiest, so that's why I have raised it.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
You were asking evidence for God; yet you're the minority in this argument. 80% say yes He exists, 20% say no He doesn't. On that basis, you are on back-foot; you need to tell me why you go against the grain; not why I follow it.
You have made a non-falsifiable claim without evidence and then you lean on the ad populum fallacy and demand he falsify it?
Plus, your entire way of life (i.e athiesm) is being defined by mine (thiesm)
Atheism is not a way of life. It is an opinion on but one question.
Your beliefs cannot hurt you unless they work through some sort of event in your life.
Huh?
Certainly a belief that one can fly would be pretty dangerous
The beliefs instilled in many children of fire and brimstone fundamentalist christians terrify theml. I know a few people who are now atheists who grew up in such a condition and they found their fear of hell quite hurtful, especially when she started to have doubts were terrified of thinking for themselves rather than have their church think for them.
You have made a non-falsifiable claim without evidence and then you lean on the ad populum fallacy and demand he falsify it?
Then don't expect thiests to prove God whilst you ride happily on the back of their gravy train. Athiesm is the belief that God doesn't exist. Thiesm is the Belief he does; if it is for thiest to prove He does, then it is for athiest to prove He doesn't.
Atheism is not a way of life. It is an opinion on but one question.
Yeah and that opinion is what we are discussing. Bottom line is if thiests must prove God; athiests must disprove Him.
Since however, existence/absence of proof is not proof of existence/absence, I can never prove God. So asking me to is a bigger fallacy than the ad popullum. In which case we are back to square one. Wonderful discussion so far, huh?
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Certainly a belief that one can fly would be pretty dangerous
The beliefs instilled in many children of fire and brimstone fundamentalist christians terrify theml. I know a few people who are now atheists who grew up in such a condition and they found their fear of hell quite hurtful, especially when she started to have doubts were terrified of thinking for themselves rather than have their church think for them.
All I'm saying is, athiests are on the back foot in this argument to begin with. Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - it's 80:20 in our favour already. Athiests are the ones that need to do the convincing, not thiests.
Thiests don't have to prove a thing in relation to God's existence - says whom
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