Imagine ...

:X

Well then.... why did God forbid paganism and destroy some pagan peoples in the Old Testament?

The problem with these imaginings is that they contradict our own scriptures way too much. This would mean that every Prophet lied when they said that they had the truth and every people that they tried to convert had a right to stay pagan. Which would mean that people who followed Pharaoh and worshipped him had just as legitimate of a religion as Moses had.

Which is obviously ludicrous.

lol interesting question. but i nothing like that will happen

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid

Well then.... why did God forbid paganism and destroy some pagan peoples in the Old Testament?

The problem with these imaginings is that they contradict our own scriptures way too much. This would mean that every Prophet lied when they said that they had the truth and every people that they tried to convert had a right to stay pagan. Which would mean that people who followed Pharaoh and worshipped him had just as legitimate of a religion as Moses had.

Which is obviously ludicrous.

I don't think it has to mean that. I'm not saying that all relgions can be harmonized with one another either. But I do think that some of them, no not all of them, can declare themselves as true, without having to declare that there is no truth in anything else.

Let me give an example from a verse in Christiantiy that I think many Christian improperly interpret in an exclusivistic manner: {quote]Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)[/quote]

Now, the majority of Christian understand this verse to mean that if you don't know Jesus you can't get to heaven. Why? Because Jesus says that know one can come to the Father, except through him. So, they ask rhetorically, "If you don't know Jesus, how can he help you get to heaven?" And they answer their own question that you can't. But I think they are wrong -- that is not what this verse says.

You see while I accept the verse is true in saying that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, I don't see it saying anything about it having to be an acceptance of Jesus. Lots of people (not just Muslims, but Christians too) think that the Christian message is all about agreeing with what Jesus taught, but that is not the central message of the Christian Gospel. Rather the central message of the Christian Gospel, is that Jesus died to reconcile us to God. Nothing about belief there at all. Jesus takes away the sin of the world that keeps human beings from being able to have a relationship with God. Now, according to the Christian faith, you don't have to believe that for it to be true, it is one of the givens of the Christian faith that is true for everyoine. We generally go on to teach people that since Jesus has done this that it is important for you to believe it and live accordingly. That's simple concept is the basic idea behind John 3:16 and a whole host of other verses. But is accepting that really necessary? Well, not according to John 14:6 and not even according to Ephesians 2:8:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Notice, it does not say that anyone is saved by faith, rather we are saved by God's grace. We may experience grace because we have faith, but this is part of a letter written to people who have faith. They have received this grace through their faith. But what about others? Nothing is said. It does not say that without faith that one cannot receive God's grace. As a matter of fact, God's grace is something that God decides who does and doesn't receive. That's because God is the decision maker, and not us. Thus, if God decides that he wants to save you, God can do that. God can do pretty much whatever God wants to do. Yes, he does that in and through Jesus, but no where in scripture does it actually say that you have to believe that Jesus' is the author of your salvation in order for you to be a recipient of it. I find that an incredible idea, but it really never says it. Thus, while I think it just makes sense to believe because them one has God's promise of salvation, the Bible does not actually slam the door on those who don't believe. In the long run, at least from the Biblical perspective, if God wants to save pagans (or anyone else) that is God's perogative to decide and do as God well pleases.


So, (and I fully expect a fair number of Christians to disagree with me on this) Glo's question, unusual though it is, may contradict some scriptures from other religions, but I personally don't think that it actually contradicts the Christian scriptures.

That would necessitate that God lied to us and deceived us - and God if far removed from such things!

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

Says who? God?

We know this because the Prophets have told us and what Allah has told us through them.

You can reject what they say and imagine a lying, deceiving, and malevolent creator but.... you have no evidence for your ideas so they are invalid.

Then who doth greater wrong than he who deviseth a lie concerning Allah, that he may lead mankind astray without knowledge. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (Quran 6:144)

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

It is completely valid and plausible.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more true.

I'd imagine such a malevolent creator would have struck you with a bolt of lightening for your disbelief by now.

But at least we can agree so far that Allah is Al-Ḥalīm (forbearing, indulgent) since you are not writhing in pain and agony from your lies yet.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

Are you gonna try to debunk the theory using logic and common sense?
It may have flaws I haven't thought of, I haven't really thought much of it, but I still think it is logically valid.
To your second line: who says god is bothered by disbelief? Sure, the Quran does, the Bible etc, but let's not use holy books right now. I'm not saying my theory is right or claim to have any evidence whatsoever, but it's valid.

Am I supposed to come to the truth without using my intelligence? You're right that it has flaws, and those flaws negate it.

By the way, If I'm not suing common sense, logic, or holy books, WHAT am I using? I'd imagine those would be necessary for a belief to be valid.

Out of curiosity, do you agree now that Allah is at least al Halim?

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid

Am I supposed to come to the truth without using my intelligence? You're right that it has flaws, and those flaws negate it.

By the way, If I'm not suing common sense, logic, or holy books, WHAT am I using? I'd imagine those would be necessary for a belief to be valid.

Out of curiosity, do you agree now that Allah is at least al Halim?

You used preconceptiosn about a god that have undoubtedly sprung out from your belief for Islam. what I'd like you to do is that fr a limited amount of time you imagine god as an all powerful being of whom you know nothing, you don't know whether he prefers belief over disbelief, you don't know whether he lies or not, the only thing you do know is his omnipotence.
Now explains what pevents god from creating humans and sending them a couple of contradicting holy books in order to have a laugh.
I don't think he exists so I really don't care whether he is al-halim.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

You used preconceptiosn about a god that have undoubtedly sprung out from your belief for Islam. what I'd like you to do is that fr a limited amount of time you imagine god as an all powerful being of whom you know nothing, you don't know whether he prefers belief over disbelief, you don't know whether he lies or not, the only thing you do know is his omnipotence.
Now explains what pevents god from creating humans and sending them a couple of contradicting holy books in order to have a laugh.
I don't think he exists so I really don't care whether he is al-halim.

Funny you'd call them contradicting yet educated Jews and Christians are reverting back to Islam everyday because they found it to be in harmony with the truthful elements of each of their scriptures.

I'd have to point it out to him that he missed a bunch of the bridges between Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Guess he was laughing to hard to notice.

You insist that he could be malevolent yet are not reduced to charred ashes. Therefore he is al Halim so..... lookit! We figured out an attribute of Allah and falsified another!

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

Now who says a malvolent god needs to incinerate everyone?
Your god for instance keeps the punishment for later, and makes it much worse than one time incineration, so I don't find your god halim, on the other hand, the hypothetical god I'm trying to discuss with you, may or may not be al halim, he may not care what people do, he may be saving the severest of punishments, he may incude hart attacks or hwhatever. It is not withing our knowledge, we know nothing about this hypothetical god.

1. Keeping the punishment for later is one of the definitions of al halim
2. He is giving you a chance to rethink your views so that is merciful and just and ontop of that has allowed you numerous encounters with Muslims to help
3. You're argument was more of a rant about ignorance than a well thought out statement in a constructive debate
4. Your source is your imagination, mine is a holy book supplemented with my intelligence

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

Look, all I'm saying is taht you can never know for sure god hasn't decieved you.
After all he or she is god and you are human.

So let me get this straight.

You'd believe your deceiving theory even though it flies in the face of every religion on earth.

But.

You'd believe there is no god because (in your mind) it flies in the face of everything you've thought.


This is hypocritical and illogical and your reasons for acting so are highly debatable. And as a post script, Muslims can provide reasons to refute the second statement yet the deceiving theory is conclusively contrary to all religions.

"And that He may punish the Hypocrites, men and women, and the Polytheists men and women, who imagine an evil opinion of God. On them is a round of Evil: the Wrath of God is on them: He has cursed them and got Hell ready for them: and evil is it for a destination. (The Noble Quran, 48:6)"