You should know that I do not ever expect God to return at some end time because I see His judgment at the beginning of our birth in Genesis as the only judgment that he need’s render.
Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
This very good included all that is, including sin, evil and the woes that were to afflict us, without which we could not develop our moral sense.
To have Him return, red faced, to fix a perfect world is beyond my definition of God. He gets things right the first time, every time.
I believe that when we left the garden we did so with God being proud of His perfect works and not ashamed that He had started us off on the wrong foot, so to speak, from the beginning of our journey.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
I know that many think of Genesis as the fall of man. This is false.
Man came out of Genesis only after the development of the moral sense that comes from the knowledge of good and evil.
God wanted man to have a moral sense and insured that this would happen by making sure that the talking snake/Satan was there to draw Eve out of any lethargy or laziness of mind and would be lead in the right direction.
I take the advice of the Pope and read the Bible allegorically and see Genesis as a right of passage for all humans from a state of innocence in the home/garden to a search for moral values in the greater society/talking snake.
It is this same society, with it’s differing values that hone our moral sense. It also draws us to sin. As God wants.
Why does God want us to sin?
2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
New Jerusalem
9 The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance.
If we must all come to repentance then clearly we must all sin.
God makes this easy by creating us all with a sinning nature.
It is God’s will that all repent and none be lost and it must be so, if God’s will is supreme.
To think otherwise is to think that God’s will can be thwarted.
If it is then it is not God’s will at all.
So to those who await a second or third judgment from God, forget that silly notion.
He told us it was a good beginning and from good beginnings come good endings.
We are all to be saved which ends the notion of a hell. If you think about hell for just a moment, it is clear from a moral standpoint, that God would not ever invent or create such a place. It would be admitting that He has failed in saving all of us. This is against His will and must be a false interpretation of scripture.
Do you think that God is proud of His creations, or, do you think He will return in shame to -fix- His perfect works?
Does the God of Islam also have to return or does He also need a hell for His mistakes?
Does the God of Islam also have to return or does He also need a hell for His mistakes?
Read the Quran and research more about Islam.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
YES. One of HIS names is "Al-Mutakabbir" meaning "The Proud" which is given in bible as "my GOD is a jealous GOD". "jealous" being little mistranslation in my opinion
Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
This very good included all that is, including sin, evil and the woes that were to afflict us, without which we could not develop our moral sense.
u r WRONG. This verse talks of structural universe that HE made. It does not include evil/sins etc. & by "very good" it means that creation was perfect as it really is. Look at how this universe is sustaining & look at life forms how well & intricately they r created.
To have Him return, red faced, to fix a perfect world is beyond my definition of God. He gets things right the first time, every time.
HE made a plan. That was to create creatures with "free=will" & then test them by giving them "limited" free-hand uptil a certain period of time.(GOD knows better) Now HE is not going to "re-turn" until that alloted time-period is over, that's when day-of-judgement would be set up.
.....God wanted man to have a moral sense and insured that this would happen by making sure that the talking snake/Satan was there to draw Eve out of any lethargy or laziness of mind........
Why does God want us to sin?
answered above
2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
New Jerusalem
9 The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance..........
........ It would be admitting that He has failed in saving all of us. This is against His will and must be a false interpretation of scripture.
HE did not fail. ur thinking is result of ur misunderstanding. read above HE is just waiting patiently till that allocated time-period is over. HE is testing HIS creature with free-will that they must repent & come back to HIM & be humble & submissive in front of HIM.
As any worldly king would want ppl to be submissive in front of him, why can't THE KING of the universe"Al-Malik" want the same....!!! HE wants HIS free-willed & intelligent creature to use their free-will & intelligence to appreciate HIM as THE KING... &... give HIM the due respect.
Do you think that God is proud of His creations, or, do you think He will return in shame to -fix- His perfect works?
Part of HIS plan is to guide "free-willed & intelligent" creation back to right path by sending "messengers & prophets" time to time.
HE, as i said above, is NOT ashamed of anything. HIS creation of freewilled-&-intelligent creature is perfect. Now this free-willed creature used it's free-will to disobey GOD, & does NOT uses it's intelligence to apprehend HIM..... that not HIS error.... that's freely chosen path of this free-willed creature....
there are no hard, medium or soft Muslims. you are either a good Muslim or you are bad. Also sexual discrimination is your view, rather than have a long winded discussion simply use the search feature on the status of women in Islam.
Pls refrain from speaking on my behalf or other Muslim sister's.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
YES. One of HIS names is "Al-Mutakabbir" meaning "The Proud" which is given in bible as "my GOD is a jealous GOD". "jealous" being little mistranslation in my opinion
u r WRONG. This verse talks of structural universe that HE made. It does not include evil/sins etc. & by "very good" it means that creation was perfect as it really is. Look at how this universe is sustaining & look at life forms how well & intricately they r created.
HE made a plan. That was to create creatures with "free=will" & then test them by giving them "limited" free-hand uptil a certain period of time.(GOD knows better) Now HE is not going to "re-turn" until that alloted time-period is over, that's when day-of-judgement would be set up.
answered above
HE did not fail. ur thinking is result of ur misunderstanding. read above HE is just waiting patiently till that allocated time-period is over. HE is testing HIS creature with free-will that they must repent & come back to HIM & be humble & submissive in front of HIM.
As any worldly king would want ppl to be submissive in front of him, why can't THE KING of the universe"Al-Malik" want the same....!!! HE wants HIS free-willed & intelligent creature to use their free-will & intelligence to appreciate HIM as THE KING... &... give HIM the due respect.
Part of HIS plan is to guide "free-willed & intelligent" creation back to right path by sending "messengers & prophets" time to time.
HE, as i said above, is NOT ashamed of anything. HIS creation of freewilled-&-intelligent creature is perfect. Now this free-willed creature used it's free-will to disobey GOD, & does NOT uses it's intelligence to apprehend HIM..... that not HIS error.... that's freely chosen path of this free-willed creature....
Well, evil was in the garden in the sixth bay as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. it is hard to see how evil could have been created later when the knowledge of it was already there.
As to your reliance on free will.
God does not offer us free will. He offers us an ultimatum to do as He commands or go to hell. He is a dictator, not a democratic leader.
If He though that our free will was important then He would not have been killing us all over the old testament and that includes Sodom and Noah's genocidal flood.
God does not offer us free will. He offers us an ultimatum to do as He commands or go to hell. He is a dictator, not a democratic leader.
You (like many athiests) always neglect the carrot, why?
If you do as God has commanded, it is beneficial for you IN THIS LIFE. If you disobey His commands, it is bad for you IN THIS LIFE. Recall the numerous analogies given to you in the paradise and wealth thread in relation to carrot and stick approaches.
Or, if you are the lazy type: click here and scroll down to posts 78 onwards (half-way down the page).
If He though that our free will was important then He would not have been killing us all over the old testament and that includes Sodom and Noah's genocidal flood.
Where was man's free will to live at that time?
Regards
DL
Regards
DL
Warnings and signs were given to those people involved and they suffered because they didn't take heed. Going back to Gubblenucker's truck analogy in the other thread: you cannot complain about being hit by the truck if you didn't bother to listen to the honking or see the headlights.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Well, evil was in the garden in the sixth bay as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. it is hard to see how evil could have been created later when the knowledge of it was already there.
Tree of knowledge? What tree of knowledge?
All that was - was a tree which God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from. Whereas He let them eat and take benefit from the rest of the entire garden.
So how is that oppression?
It was simply a 'No Go Zone'.
As to your reliance on free will.
God does not offer us free will. He offers us an ultimatum to do as He commands or go to hell. He is a dictator, not a democratic leader.
God knows the creation better than the creation knows itself.
He gives us good, and rewards that with good, you do evil - you get punished for your own evil. That is justice, not oppression.
If He though that our free will was important then He would not have been killing us all over the old testament and that includes Sodom and Noah's genocidal flood.
In regard to your issue on Noah's flood, who said i believe that ALL of humanity was flooded? According to Islamic sources, those who rejected Noah and Prophet Lot, and oppressed him and his followers - they were the ones who were punished. That shows it was Justice on the part of God to get rid of the oppressors.
This is why God tells us in the Qur'an continuously;
And We did not oppress them at all, but they themselves were unjust. [Qur'an 43:76]
Yet not enough to criticise them on exactly the same fronts, as if they were equivalent. I mean, it is possible for one to do that, but it would expose one's lack of research.
Heaven, hell, repentance
Yes, these are common to all Abrahamic faiths, but all Abrahamic faiths are not equivalent.
sexual discrimination etc.
Search for 'Status of Women in Islam'.
Further, there are hard, medium and soft Muslims. I want all views.
You can have all the views you want. If you keep treating Islamic and Christian beliefs as identical to disguise your lack of research of the former, you'll be running into the same brick walls. I.e all Muslims (hard, medium, soft, or runny) will say 'Uh, Islam doesn't teach that. Christianity does.'
Vatican II tried to see the common ground. If you prefer to accentuate the differences well------
Peaceful coexistence is absolutely possible, and indeed essential, despite differences. In a way, it's because of our differences that we must coexist.
I'm not sure I like your (somewhat sanctimonious) implication that the act of simply pointing out that the teachings of one religion are different to another amounts to stirring up trouble. I'd appreciate it if you refrain from putting words in my mouth, or any other member's mouth, in future.
If according to atheists we are just a bag of biological matter driven by a series of chemical reactions that started when we were born, how exactly do we have free will?
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 07-08-2009 at 01:19 PM.
You (like many athiests) always neglect the carrot, why?
I am not an atheist. I am a believer but not in your dictator God.
I do not ignore the carrot but if i chose to eat grapes then I should not have to go to hell for my choice.
If you do as God has commanded, it is beneficial for you IN THIS LIFE. If you disobey His commands, it is bad for you IN THIS LIFE. Recall the numerous analogies given to you in the paradise and wealth thread in relation to carrot and stick approaches.
If I only do what God commands then I am a slave. Where is free choice then?
Or, if you are the lazy type: click here and scroll down to posts 78 onwards (half-way down the page).
Warnings and signs were given to those people involved and they suffered because they didn't take heed. Going back to Gubblenucker's truck analogy in the other thread: you cannot complain about being hit by the truck if you didn't bother to listen to the honking or see the headlights.
What recognizable signs were given to the children and babies.
Were all tha animals able to also read these signs? What evil was found in them as well as the children and babies?
All that was - was a tree which God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from. Whereas He let them eat and take benefit from the rest of the entire garden.
So how is that oppression?
It was simply a 'No Go Zone'.
Was the tree not the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
the same good and evil that is required for man to gain a moral sense.
If there is a no go zone then where is man's free will?
God knows the creation better than the creation knows itself.
He gives us good, and rewards that with good, you do evil - you get punished for your own evil. That is justice, not oppression.
To be as God's knowing good and evil.
Do things my way or burn is not free will. It is a dictator oppressing his people.
A mugger give the same choice. Give your money or die. Oppression.
In regard to your issue on Noah's flood, who said i believe that ALL of humanity was flooded? According to Islamic sources, those who rejected Noah and Prophet Lot, and oppressed him and his followers - they were the ones who were punished. That shows it was Justice on the part of God to get rid of the oppressors.
If That was God's policy then, then it should be His policy now. It is not.
This is why God tells us in the Qur'an continuously;
And We did not oppress them at all, but they themselves were unjust. [Qur'an 43:76]
I have no problem with the punishment of evil. I do have a problem with the slaughter of innocent children. babies and animals.
Yet not enough to criticise them on exactly the same fronts, as if they were equivalent. I mean, it is possible for one to do that, but it would expose one's lack of research.
Yes, these are common to all Abrahamic faiths, but all Abrahamic faiths are not equivalent.
Search for 'Status of Women in Islam'.
I did. In Afghanistan. I found a rape law. I did in Iran and found many women fighting for the freedom that men enjoy.
I looked elsewhere and found Muslins hiding the flesh of woman instead of accepting the challenge of thinking of flesh in a moral way. Men driven by fear looks like to me.
You can have all the views you want. If you keep treating Islamic and Christian beliefs as identical to disguise your lack of research of the former, you'll be running into the same brick walls. I.e all Muslims (hard, medium, soft, or runny) will say 'Uh, Islam doesn't teach that. Christianity does.'
I do not think that Islam and Christianity have the same laws. I try to accentuate the common ones and you seek the differences.
Peaceful coexistence is absolutely possible, and indeed essential, despite differences. In a way, it's because of our differences that we must coexist.
.
Then all religions should stop with the my way or burn attitude.
If according to atheists we are just a bag of biological matter driven by a series of chemical reactions that started when we were born, how exactly do we have free will?
Freedom cannot be given. Freedom must be taken.
We are all free to follow the rules of our societies. We are not free to break them unless we take the freedom to do so.
I am not an atheist. I am a believer but not in your dictator God.
I do not ignore the carrot but if i chose to eat grapes then I should not have to go to hell for my choice.
If you don't ignore the carrot why do you always mention the stick? And if you are afraid of the stick, good, so am I. That's why I avoid it, You should too (again, for your own benefit IN THIS LIFE!)
If I only do what God commands then I am a slave. Where is free choice then?
Same as when a doctor tells you eat junk food and you die, eat healthy food and you live.
Again, if you weren't so hung up about the stick, you'd have no problem with this ''ultimatum''.
What recognizable signs were given to the children and babies.
Were all tha animals able to also read these signs? What evil was found in them as well as the children and babies?
Regards
DL
Children are automatically granted paradise if they die before reaching puberty as they are considered innocent.
Now that we have your rhetoric dealt with, can we please move onto the topic at hand?
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
I did in Iran and found many women fighting for the freedom that men enjoy.
I’m not going to open the sectarian can of worms that is Iran’s version of Islamic law. Suffice it to say that the situation is far more complicated than you’re making out.
I looked elsewhere and found Muslins hiding the flesh of woman instead of accepting the challenge of thinking of flesh in a moral way. Men driven by fear looks like to me.
Looks like you did not do the research to me.
Because if you did, you’d see that the concept of the awrah (the minimum area of the body that must be covered) in Islam derives from Islamic law, not men wanting to run away from temptation. The whole issue is about public nudity – for instance, in developed countries, whether they’re Muslim majority or not, women generally cannot go around topless without causing legal trouble, but men can. Does this mean the men are wrapping away their temptresses?
I do not think that Islam and Christianity have the same laws. I try to accentuate the common ones and you seek the differences.
You seek to accentuate the common laws by quoting/distorting Christian scripture and implying it must necessarily apply to all Abrahamic faiths?
The very crux of your first post on this thread is about God ‘returning’. Islamically, there is no such concept because He never 'left'. As for whether He is proud of His work, Islamically, we simply cannot say.
I also fail to see how that is ‘accentuating’ a difference. What do you expect in a Comparative Religion forum?
Then all religions should stop with the my way or burn attitude.
1)You were the one saying the Pope was trying to make peace between religions by celebrating similarities.
2)‘All religions’ do not have the ‘my way or burn’ attitude. So that’s either a lie to further an agenda or evidence of further lack of research.
3)As far as the religions that do say ‘if you don’t worship God, you risk burning in Hell’ are concerned, that is a fact. Just as far as a doctor is concerned when telling an obese patient he must adjust his diet or risk dying, that is a fact. If the person on the receiving end doesn’t like hearing it, or doesn’t believe it, they are free to ignore it.
4)Abrahamic religions do not give carte blanche to their followers to abuse non-followers on the grounds that the non-followers risk going to hell. Hence the Islamic teachings of ‘whomsoever God guides, none can misguide and whomsoever God misguides none can guide’ and ‘to you your way, to me mine’. Which leads me to
5) Abrahamic faiths do indeed preach peaceful coexistence.
If you don't ignore the carrot why do you always mention the stick? And if you are afraid of the stick, good, so am I. That's why I avoid it, You should too (again, for your own benefit IN THIS LIFE!)
Same as when a doctor tells you eat junk food and you die, eat healthy food and you live.
I hae a choice in following my doctors advise or not. If I do not, he does not impose any penalty other than the natural one. Hell is not natural.
Again, if you weren't so hung up about the stick, you'd have no problem with this ''ultimatum''.
I am not hung up on it. I just recognize it as an ultimatum. not freedom is it when it is there.
Children are automatically granted paradise if they die before reaching puberty as they are considered innocent.
So the day they turn to puberty then they were automatically evil. Ok.
Now that we have your rhetoric dealt with, can we please move onto the topic at hand?
I hae a choice in following my doctors advise or not. If I do not, he does not impose any penalty other than the natural one. Hell is not natural.
What does it matter? It's exactly the same argument!
I am not hung up on it. I just recognize it as an ultimatum. not freedom is it when it is there.
Again, it is the same argument. You have freedom not to listen to the doctor just as you have freedom not to listen to God; in either case you get screwed IN THIS LIFE. Which is what I (and pretty much everyone else who has been discussing with you on the matter) have been telling you for the past few days.
So the day they turn to puberty then they were automatically evil. Ok.DL
No, that is not what I said. At puberty, a child is then responsible for their actions in Islam; i.e are applicable for the good deeds vs bad deed scale (like all other adults)
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
actually as per this fellow's argument of 'Natural' --dying from a pathological state that is self-brought-upon due to life style choices isn't natural, in fact that is why they call it pathological.
Also, I am not sure why the threat of hell matters to folks who don't believe in it?
if it is very matter of fact to you, then you should state your grievances on the day of recompense not on a public forum..
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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