bible clearly says jesus was not crucified!!!

Let's get to the point here.

We Muslims believe that the Taurat,Bible and Al-Qur'an (I think I'm missing one holy book) was given to our selected beloved prophets (Peace be upon all of them). Jesus(pbuh) was never crucified, it looks like he was but he WASN'T. As far as I'm concern, Allah S.W.T. had change his soul with another soul so that he could live another day. Jesus(pbuh) never got resurrected or whatever non-sense. Oh and there's a claim that there were 2 jesus.

View more, I think it's a VERY long video and requires accurate date and time but if you feel that you need to get some info on Jesus(peace be upon him) on a Muslim respective I suggest you watch it.

Finally, I just want to say that I would like to be corrected if I'm wrong and I mean no harm to the Christians.



Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc

format_quote Originally Posted by tango92

its possible to disprove crucifixion just by thinking logically - can god die? can god be a man? no and no. if God came down on earth then there would be no doubt left in the matter, there would be no need for belief.

This is what is in scripture:

'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Phillipians 2: 5-11.

Jesus voluntarily humbled himself and clothed himself with humanity (though he was still divine) and paid the penalty of humanity's sin debt. He's fully and truly God because he was always God from eternity to eternity with the Father, before anything was made. And he is fully and true man because he was born into this world and lived a sinless life, which is what God wanted from the beginning, even in the Garden of Eden.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

the message of All the prophets was worship 1 god alone, he has no partners, God is one.

I find it so strange that people can believe Jesus as gods partner when all the messengers and prophets before him preached "The lord your god is one god thou shall not set up partners in worship to him"

why would God contradict himself later with Jesus it just don't make sense to me at all I'm afraid.

Well, consider this passage of scripture, in the Old Testament no less.

'The Lord said unto my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Pslam 110: 1. Here's Jesus, in the Gospels, referencing this verse.

'Saying, what think ye of Christ, whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, til I make thine enemies thy footstool?

If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.' Matthew 22: 42-46.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

I don't believe God would have a son because having children is beneath him, I don't know how to explain it,

it's like a great king marrying an animal and impregnating that animal and saying that animal is his son lol. even though that's not possible lol.

but that's why I find it so hard to believe how can a great God have a son, like the rest of us, God is above us and better than us. He doesn't reproduce like we reproduce. He doesn't reproduce at all, he especially doesn't reproduce through the act of sex and impregnating astagfirullah.

who is Jesus's grand father? was Mary married to god for her to have his son?

Jesus did not just come into existance when he was born of Mary. As I said, he has always existed with the Father in eternity past. And God doesn't reproduce. But the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have ALWAYS existed. Jesus though, stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity, dying for the sins of the world.

format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes

islam is the second largest religion in your country united kingdom and more and more pple reverting every year who knows maybe the Queen will revert

I guess , she will be killed if she wants to . Still it's a mystery how Princess Diana died.

@ fedos picking out verses from the bible does not constitute proof for a muslim. i was talking about thinking logically about it. see why did jesus have to "humble" himself before the father and not vice versa. i (and probably most people) can come up with a huge list of questions that contradict trinity and cannot be explained rationally.

what you are now going to do is tell me something like 'no no jesus was a purehearted being and it made no difference to him to be crucified'

which is basically just inventing some new characteristics and dynamics of jesus to rebut. if not that then coming back to 'god in his infinite wisdom decided'
stop deluding urself, your religion is incompatible with natural thought.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim World 12

Aslamu alaaykum..
Jesus was cleearly not Crucified as told in the Bible from this Verse Also..

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[b] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. (Acts)

Wa alaaykum Salaam

Greetings

Like Supreme I am intrigued as to where you read from this Bible passage that Jesus did not die by crucifixion.
Twice it is stated very clearly that he was put to death.

He was raised from death, thereby overcoming death (a promised made also to all who follow him) ... but first he had to go through suffering death on the cross.

Salaam

If God can die even for few days then who will take care of the world?

If God die and the world is still running perfectly then it means that he never die, OR there is another God who is controlling the world while the first God is dead!

If the first God is resurrected from death then this means that there is something who made him alive again. In other words, there is another mighty being who is more powerful than the first God returned him to life!!

Can someone think seriously about this??

^ Christians don't believe in 1 god though, they're pagans I think cos they believe in 2 gods jesus and god.

format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos

Jesus did not just come into existance when he was born of Mary. As I said, he has always existed with the Father in eternity past. And God doesn't reproduce. But the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have ALWAYS existed. Jesus though, stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity, dying for the sins of the world.

hmm so he's always existed with God, how did he become into being like who is his mother that conceived him and gave him as a son to God? If God doesn't reproduce then how can he have the relation of a son, isn't a son from the reproduction of a father? so how can he be a son of god if he wasn't reproduced by God cos the relation isn't there.

so jesus gave up his divine powers and became like a lowly animal human that has human desires and needs food and sleep and has to use the bathroom?

and he did this why? to pay for our sins? but I find that to be unjust why should someone else pay for my mistakes. It's like a murderer getting away scotch free cos some1 has paid for the crime of the murder and, that is unjust.

and is God that limited in his forgiveness that he can't forgive unless something is sacraficed for him? if that's the case Humans are more forgiving and mercifull than god cos we don't require a sacrafice to forgive our children. We don't require our children to shed blood so we can forgive them where as god does so I guess we're more forgiving than god.

and since jesus has paid for our debt with his blood, how come we can't do what ever we want now?? I mean Jesus has paid for our debt with his blood right so we don't have to worry about the debt of sin now cos it's been paid for with Jesus's blood right? .

also why would god create us as sinful and then expect us to pay for the debt of sin when he made us this why?

it's like me creating an alarm clock and asking it to pay for being noisy and waking me up in the morning, it's only doing what is in it's nature so how can I expect it to pay for it's debt when I made it that way?

there's no human being who is sin free so why would God expect us to pay for a design flaw that is his fault? the design flaw being sin that he doesn't accept.

it's like a company creating a product and something goes wrong with the product and then the company goes tough no refund.

is it the products fault that the company designed it with that flaw, or is it the creators fault?

obviously it's the creators fault cos the product can't help the way he is made so why should he be asked to pay for something he was created with?

if God wanted sinless individuals in his kingdom why didn't he just create sinless individuals instead of making them with faults and then asking them to pay for those faults.

I still don't understand why God contradicted himself when his message from the start of time was "there's 1 god worship me alone without any partners"

you quoted passages from the bible but they don't really make sense to me and I don't believe the bible to be the word of God as I mentioned earlier, the word of God is perfect and divine, therefore it doesn't need correcting by men to be made free from errors. However that isn't the case with the bible, errors are corrected then new versions are released, how can god make errors and contradictions in his revelation

it's pointless quoting bible passages to me cos I don't believe it to be divine I believe it to be the work of men like Paul and Marks'. and because it's the work of Men I believe that's why there's so many contradictions that have to be taken out and replaced with a new version bible

it's like my quoting you the Qur'an it would mean nothing to you right since you don't accept it as divine, you accept it to be the word of a man called Muhammed and not the word of God.

but the word of Muhammed as you believe it to be, is free from errros and contradictions which in my eyes is much more acceptable as a revelation of God than a book that has verses removed and inserted by men because of contradictions.

The Qur'an even sets the criterion for whether or not something is from God, it says "if this revelation wasn't from God then it would contain many errors and contradictions" but the fact is it's perfect in every way, it says " if you believe this to be from other than god then try to reproduce a chapter like it" and no one has been able to reproduce a chapter like it which tells me it's from God and not the handywork of men. and the fact that it talks about facts like the Universe is constantly expanding, which was only recently discovered, it's not possible for them to have known that 1400 years ago but the Qur'an reveals it.

that's why I believe it to be from God, I believe what Jesus preached was from God also however I believe what Jesus preached has been distorted and corrupted by the hands of men.

where as the Qur'an is in it's orignal form, it's been the same for 1400 years, men haven't changed it, Imams (priests and rabbi's) haven't changed it,

cos God says in it

"I will preserve this book from modification by the hands of men"

also whose interpretation of the bible do you follow?? as you know a text can be interpretated in many different ways, we could both read the same thing and interpret it, in completely different ways, so who's interpretation of the bible do you follow?

your own interpretation?

your vicars interpretation?

your dad or mums interpretation?

This thread is pointless. Yes I am serious about it. Just think about it, it's hard to change a fact that has been around for more than a thousand year and make people believe that that particular fact is false/true. It's just pointless. I know that some people with great knowledge and understanding would accept and that some of the people who are arrogant enough couldn't accept the fact. It's just like the boy who cried wolf. It's a sad story.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Say Amen' when the Imam says "Ghair-il-maghdubi 'alaihim wala-ddal-lin; not the path of those who earn Your Anger (such as Jews) nor of those who go astray (such as Christians); all the past sins of the person whose saying (of Amin) coincides with that of the angels, will be forgiven. (Book #12, Hadith #749)

format_quote Originally Posted by tango92

@ fedos picking out verses from the bible does not constitute proof for a muslim. i was talking about thinking logically about it. see why did jesus have to "humble" himself before the father and not vice versa. i (and probably most people) can come up with a huge list of questions that contradict trinity and cannot be explained rationally.

what you are now going to do is tell me something like 'no no jesus was a purehearted being and it made no difference to him to be crucified'

which is basically just inventing some new characteristics and dynamics of jesus to rebut. if not that then coming back to 'god in his infinite wisdom decided'
stop deluding urself, your religion is incompatible with natural thought.

Well, I'm not denying that truly believing in the God of the Bible and his Son Jesus Christ takes divine intervention. In fact, Jesus said it this way.

'No man can come to me, except the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.' St John 6: 44.

We are all born in sin and with sin nature, and it blinds us to the reality of God. Without God revealing himself to us then we are going to think that the things of God are foolishness.

'For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chose the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.' I Corinthians 1: 18-29.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

^ Christians don't believe in 1 god though, they're pagans I think cos they believe in 2 gods jesus and god.




hmm so he's always existed with God, how did he become into being like who is his mother that conceived him and gave him as a son to God? If God doesn't reproduce then how can he have the relation of a son, isn't a son from the reproduction of a father? so how can he be a son of god if he wasn't reproduced by God cos the relation isn't there.

What happened in the incarnation is, Jesus literally stepped down from the throne of heaven and entered into the womb of Mary.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

^ so jesus gave up his divine powers and became like a lowly animal human that has human desires and needs food and sleep and has to use the bathroom?

and he did this why? to pay for our sins? but I find that to be unjust why should someone else pay for my mistakes. It's like a murderer getting away scotch free cos some1 has paid for the crime of the murder and, that is unjust.

He did it to deliver us from the power that sin has over our lives. When you become Christian, God sets you free from your sins, so that you can begin to live a life of holiness. He who lived perfectly shed his blood (his life) on a cross and when you accept him you receive his perfect righteousness (because God demand's perfection from us) and are then delivered from all the things that you were bound with as a sinner. It doesn't mean that you are impervious from committing another sin, because the writer of Hebrews says that those Christians who do sin will fall under the discipline of an Almighty God. And I should know, having been suffering severally for sins that I committed way back in the summer of 2002.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

^ and is God that limited in his forgiveness that he can't forgive unless something is sacraficed for him? if that's the case Humans are more forgiving and mercifull than god cos we don't require a sacrafice to forgive our children. We don't require our children to shed blood so we can forgive them where as god does so I guess we're more forgiving than god.

God is a Holy God. He is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. In the cross, these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross). And the cross is perfect mercy because God redeems all those who come to him from a life of bondage to sin.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

and since jesus has paid for our debt with his blood, how come we can't do what ever we want now?? I mean Jesus has paid for our debt with his blood right so we don't have to worry about the debt of sin now cos it's been paid for with Jesus's blood right? .

If you, as a professing Christian, get 'saved' and then start living any old kind of lifestyle that you want because you are now 'saved' then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with. God is a constant in the lives of Christians. He is always disciplining and reproving us. If you screw up, then get ready to be chastened sore for it (I should know, I have been chastened sore for seven years now.)

If you as a Christian will not be disciplined by God then he will just end your life. There is no such thing as a conintually carnal (sinful) Christian.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

also why would god create us as sinful and then expect us to pay for the debt of sin when he made us this why?

I don't know why God allowed the devil to tempt Eve and thus Adam and bring about the fall. Our world was originally perfect, with one requirement that Adam and Eve had to obey, not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If they wouldn't have eaten from it, our world would not be fallen. God has a purpose for everything that he does though, he doesn't just do random things without backing them up with a purpose, he's not like us.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

^it's like me creating an alarm clock and asking it to pay for being noisy and waking me up in the morning, it's only doing what is in it's nature so how can I expect it to pay for it's debt when I made it that way?

God doesn't want us to pay for our sins. He wants us to come into a loving relationship with his Son Jesus Christ. He wants to forgive us and set us on the path of rightouesness and holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

^there's no human being who is sin free so why would God expect us to pay for a design flaw that is his fault? the design flaw being sin that he doesn't accept.

This is true. There is no human being who is sin free. But Christians are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is, in all areas of life. We are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. This is one of the major differences between Christianity and other religions.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

if God wanted sinless individuals in his kingdom why didn't he just create sinless individuals instead of making them with faults and then asking them to pay for those faults.

All those who are redeemed by the blood of Jesus will live perfect and sinless lives in the kingdom of God. As I said, I don't know why God allowed the fall to happen in the first place, but he did, and I know he has a puprose behind it. I don't know, for instance, why God didn't intervene on my behalf and stop me from making the mistake that I did which caused me to sin when I first accepted him, but he did, and now I trust that there is a puprose involved.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

I still don't understand why God contradicted himself when his message from the start of time was "there's 1 god worship me alone without any partners"

you quoted passages from the bible but they don't really make sense to me and I don't believe the bible to be the word of God as I mentioned earlier, the word of God is perfect and divine, therefore it doesn't need correcting by men to be made free from errors. However that isn't the case with the bible, errors are corrected then new versions are released, how can god make errors and contradictions in his revelation

Well, we have scrolls like the Dead Sea Scrolls and whatnot, from many, many years ago, that confirms the message of scripture. And the New Testament is more documented and verified than any other ancient manuscript.

format_quote Originally Posted by KittenLover

also whose interpretation of the bible do you follow?? as you know a text can be interpretated in many different ways, we could both read the same thing and interpret it, in completely different ways, so who's interpretation of the bible do you follow?

your own interpretation?

your vicars interpretation?

your dad or mums interpretation?

You're supposed to have a good number of commentaries to read alongside reading the Bible, but the Holy Spirit is the one who leads you into all truth while you are learning about God.

Greetings and peace be with you cat eyes;

what argument can u non muslim possibly bring that jesus was crucified????

There is no evidence that will convince you, because you take your evidence from the Quran.

But the greater question for me is, how do we get on with each other despite all our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding, and friendship.

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme

The verse says:



Which implies very much so that He did die on a Cross. I still don't understand where the problem is.

24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

He did not die according to that verse "freeyin him from the agony of death", means u didnt die, well my main problem is why do you believe Jesus is God? when its never mentioned in the bible itself!