God, why so many shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities

Aaahh.. these are very enlightening and make clear as the day from the night what is true and what is false.

Jazakallah khair.

First, I appreciate that you have posted this seperately rather than injecting it into other threads.

Second, I think you have a well formulated list and good examples.

Third, you do recognize that Christians don't think of the Bible as a book by God (or at least the majority of us don't), can you see how that perhaps not eliminating all of your objections straight away, that it would change the force of your objections?

Fourth, are you willing to subject the Qur'an to non-Muslims searching through it for "shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities"? I've steadfastly refused to do that with the Qur'an out of respect for our hosts here. If you have no objection, since the Hadith is often treated as on par with the Qur'an in terms of providing guidance, would you object to us including it as well?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

First, I appreciate that you have posted this seperately rather than injecting it into other threads.

Second, I think you have a well formulated list and good examples.

Third, you do recognize that Christians don't think of the Bible as a book by God (or at least the majority of us don't), can you see how that perhaps not eliminating all of your objections straight away, that it would change the force of your objections?

Fourth, are you willing to subject the Qur'an to non-Muslims searching through it for "shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities"? I've steadfastly refused to do that with the Qur'an out of respect for our hosts here. If you have no objection, since the Hadith is often treated as on par with the Qur'an in terms of providing guidance, would you object to us including it as well?

So basically, those verses actually exist in the bible correct?
So basically, you accept there are numerous contradictions and errors in the bible correct?

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

So basically, those verses actually exist in the bible correct?

I didn't actually check them out by comparing them to my copy of the Bible. I assumed that Airforce would not have invented them from thin air, and that he is a conscientious enough person to quote them accurately.

So basically, you accept there are numerous contradictions and errors in the bible correct?

I know that there are apparent contradictions in the Bible. I think the word "apparent" is important. I find that often things that I once thought were contradictions are not once I learn more about what the actual meaning behind the respective verses. Some suggest that when properly understood that there are no actual contradictions in the Bible. I don't know that this is true either. I do know that there are passages that still don't quite fit together for me, but I find this to be true any every religion's scriptures -- yes, Islam included. (But, just like many say, when properly understood the Bible is without error or contradictions, so I find this is the response of the Muslim with regard to the Qur'an. Not surprisingly, most people are oblivious to the inherent difficulties of their own sacred scriptures but quick to find them in another's.)

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I know that there are apparent contradictions in the Bible. I think the word "apparent" is important. I find that often things that I once thought were contradictions are not once I learn more about what the actual meaning behind the respective verses. Some suggest that when properly understood that there are no actual contradictions in the Bible. I don't know that this is true either. I do know that there are passages that still don't quite fit together for me, but I find this to be true any every religion's scriptures -- yes, Islam included. (But, just like many say, when properly understood the Bible is without error or contradictions, so I find this is the response of the Muslim with regard to the Qur'an. Not surprisingly, most people are oblivious to the inherent difficulties of their own sacred scriptures but quick to find them in another's.)

I just love another of your unsatisfying long explanatory verbal acrobat attempt to get out of simple and yet d amning situation. Maybe. or maybe not.

Now, can you give us explanation to each of the bible verses mentioned above why the "apparent" contradictions are actually not contradictions (whatever the meaning of this sentence is)?
Because to my understanding, they were BLATANT contradictions, not just slight differences.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Fourth, are you willing to subject the Qur'an to non-Muslims searching through it for "shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities"? I've steadfastly refused to do that with the Qur'an out of respect for our hosts here. If you have no objection, since the Hadith is often treated as on par with the Qur'an in terms of providing guidance, would you object to us including it as well?

Why not? I'm sure plenty of people have tried and failed on this forum, the hadith might be difficult as it depends on which book of hadith you quote from, because some can only be verified by scholars and other knowledgable people.

But go for it, it'd be quite interesting, but in a new thread

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

I just love another of your unsatisfying long explanatory verbal acrobat attempt to get out of simple and yet d amning situation. Maybe. or maybe not.

I'm so happy that you love them.

Now, can you give us explanation to each of the bible verses mentioned above why the "apparent" contradictions are actually not contradictions (whatever the meaning of this sentence is)?
Because to my understanding, they were BLATANT contradictions, not just slight differences.

No. I cannot. Though I could for some passages, there are others that, as I indicated above, I find perplexing myself. These (and even more) are some of my objections to those Christians who argue for various dictation theories with regard to the Bible, and I suspect they are there because while God is himself perfect and without flaw, the human writers that he used were not. However, it isn't my agenda to either excuse or try to defend the Bible; I don't think that it needs me to do that. Jesus himself noted that the problem isn't with the scriptures nor with realiy (often denied) but with an individual's lack of faith (see Luke 16:31).

Now, if you have some serious question of faith, rather than what comes across as mere random pot-shots taken at the Bible, then of course I am glad to join you in wrestling with the issue as best I can. But I don't perceive that to be your agenda. If you have chosen to accept the validity of the Qur'an, a Bible with no mysteries, no contradictions, entirely logical in construction and supported by non-bilbical but contemporaneous historians would still be in disagreement with the Qur'an and we would still be at the same impasse we are today. There is enough of the nature of who God truly is revealed in the text of the Bible for you to come to know and accept him if you want or to reject him and turn away if you want. That choice is yours to make, and I am not so self-deluded as to think that my response here is going to change your mind on that issue unless you are open to consider new ideas or new ways of thinking with regard to the world -- which again I do see as being the case.

For those who seek the God of the Bible, even with all of its apparent shortcomings, it remains able to lead one into a relationship with him and is a guide for faith and practice.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

Like you, I am sure there will be passages in the Qur’an that non- Muslims could challenge, but I do not think this is a good idea to do so. My reason is that by doing so, we would challenge the faith of our brothers and sisters, if anyone lost their faith and became an atheist, because of something I said, then this would not be good for me or them.
Eric

Sorry I have to disagree with your opinion. I think most of us here would be quite confident that it will only have the opposite effect, strengthen our belief in islam and possibly invite people to islam.

There have been many debates between christian and muslim speakers with the same challenge and I don't think fears of people becoming atheist have ever been considered, after all muslims believe that Allah guides whom he wills and sends astray whom he wills.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I'm so happy that you love them.

No. I cannot. Though I could for some passages, there are others that, as I indicated above, I find perplexing myself. These (and even more) are some of my objections to those Christians who argue for various dictation theories with regard to the Bible, and I suspect they are there because while God is himself perfect and without flaw, the human writers that he used were not. However, it isn't my agenda to either excuse or try to defend the Bible; I don't think that it needs me to do that. Jesus himself noted that the problem isn't with the scriptures nor with realiy (often denied) but with an individual's lack of faith (see Luke 16:31).

I'll have to take note of that, firstly because its the first time I've heard a christian member on this forum admit there are flaws in the bible and secondly because it confirms our beliefs that previous scriptures are corrupted

no need to worry,

from debates we can learn alot more about our own beliefs and others, most debates here are quite civil

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

I'll have to take note of that, firstly because its the first time I've heard a christian member on this forum admit there are flaws in the bible and secondly because it confirms our beliefs that previous scriptures are corrupted

There are those Christians who hold that the Bible is infallible in all things. Those who hold that it is only infallible in terms of matters of faith. And those who hold that it isn't infallible in any way whatsoever.

As for the the Bible being corrupted. That is a different issue. Is the Bible that we have today the same Bible that it was when originally written? No. The process of copying has introduced changes. Textual criticism is a tool by which scholars attempt to reconstruct the original text. I believe that by this means we have been able to produce a text today that, while undoubtedly not identical to the original text, is nonetheless in accord with the original text. If you are familiar with the phrase, as pure as ivory soap, which advertises itself to be 99 and 44/100ths percent pure, that is how I personally conceive of the Biblical text that we use for translating the Bible into English today.


Please don't make the mistake of mixing fallibility with corruption. They are entirely different things. A text could be a perfect preserved text, but if it is false to begin with, then it remains false even if uncorrupted. On the other hand, a text could be perfectly true and in the processes of copying sustain changes. Whether or not it would still be perfectly true would depend on the nature of those changes, for instance a phrase that says "Jesus was born in Bethlehem" might be changed in a copy to read "Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem" and in another copy to read "Jesus, the Christ, was born in Bethlehem." While obviously corrupted, the truth of the passage remains unchanged because elsewhere in the scriptures Jesus is identified as being the Christ. On the other hand if it was changed to read, "Jesus was born in Bethlehem (a city in Pennsylvania)", then while it is true that there is a city in Pennsylvania named Bethlehem, the meaning derived from the passage has been signficantly changed.

As a Muslim, if you dispute the accuracy and validity of the Bible there may be multiple reasons for this, among them both questions as to whether it was ever true to begin with and then also questions as to whether the text has properly preserved over time. But be sure to distinguish that they are two seperate issues and arguing them together greatly confuses the issue, for it would not follow that if you are able to show one that you have thereby shown the other.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

As a Muslim, if you dispute the accuracy and validity of the Bible there may be multiple reasons for this, among them both questions as to whether it was ever true to begin with and then also questions as to whether the text has properly preserved over time. But be sure to distinguish that they are two seperate issues and arguing them together greatly confuses the issue, for it would not follow that if you are able to show one that you have thereby shown the other.

It is clear from the Qur'an that the scriptures were corrupted (Torah, Injeel and Zaboor), obviously not corrupted initially when they were revealed to in their true form to our prophets, but over time due to whatever reasons

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

It is clear from the Qur'an that.......

I still cannot understand muslims.

Some king reigned well before Christ. "Jack' writes the king was 22 and "Fred" writes the king was 42.

How does that make any difference to the deeds done by that king?

Please explain how the difference changes the 10 commandments?

Please explain how the difference affects Christs teachings?

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