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Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

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    Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items (OP)


    Peace

    The following comparative study is the harvest of my personal reflection on the two books that are believed by about half of the population of the world to be God's inspired word.....

    the study is throughly ,would be by topics (items),and the focus would be mostly on the textual disagreements ...


    Item :1

    Adam

    A- Unlike the Quran that views Adam as been taught the names of everything by God, the bible would view Adam as the one who chose the names of the creatures !

    Genesis 2:19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
    He taught Adam all the names of everything. ( Quran 2:31).


    B- according to the bible Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame, according to the Quran when they disobeyed they became naked and felt ashamed


    Genesis 2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

    Holy Quran 20:121 In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.


    c - The seductive argument of Satan in the Quranic narrative is that God prohibited the tree for not giving the chance to Adam and Eve to be in higher ranks as angels or eteranal beings ....,while the bible would view Satan as mere repeating the words of God seeing the the prohibition if they eat it their eyes will be opened, and they will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    D- Man is better than the Angels?

    Though the fact that Angels bowed to Adam in respect ,and God taught him the names that the Angels were ignorant of ,it seems Adam felt himself inferior to the angels ,and been seduced by Satan who would argue that the tree would make Adam and his wife Angels etc....

    The bible too ... Psalm 8:4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.

    TILL NEXT ITEM ..........

    PEACE
    Last edited by Al-manar; 05-12-2010 at 10:54 AM.
    Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    http://almanar3.blogspot.com/

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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    down through history a lot of numbers have become obsessions for all sorts of people
    but not as the beloved ,perfect number 3 .....

    actually number three has most of the cake ...

    anyway if you understood my post that I don't believe in the trinity cause it is of three elements not four or two etc...
    then I suggest you misunderstood it...
    why I don't believe in the trinity (giving direct reasons) is coming soon ....


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    For this to be understood you need to tell us what you think it means
    for Jesus to suffer and to die.
    It means for me nothing,if it really happened ..

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    and why it was necessary for Jesus to suffer and to die
    I don't think it was necessary for him to suffer ..............and even if he suffered ,he wasn't the first nor the last to suffer in such world of suffering...


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    One also notices that you have no concern whatever for context. God is predicting that many will turn away - which of course we know to be true and would you expect God to bless those who wilfully turn away from him?
    so what is your counter point here !?


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    The NT is full of OT quotations so it has everything to do with showing a fulfilment of the prophesies and nothing whatever to do with your scurrilous allegation that the Gospel writers were fabricating the story - .
    so you suggest the words of Matthew put on the mouth of Jesus,have nothing to do with the words of psalms? if so then do you believe that jesus said what he meant and meant what he say? if not, why not?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    why would they do that, why would they lie? .
    Did they lie? and what motivated them to lie?

    both questions ,will be dealt with through the terms (prophecy) and (errancy)

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    It is true as the Psalm says that For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones....
    but Jesus on the cross ,seems to think otherwise !... though being faithful ,yet cried as being forsaken .....
    would you believe him !?


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    The fact that Jesus knew what he had to do is a long long way from the eager expectation you speak of and indeed all the Gospels make it clear that he was in great anguish about it .
    yet his cry as one been taken by surprise ....

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    But such a verses cannot mean that the faithful never suffer trouble and trials
    If only one convey your message to Jesus(as depicted on the cross),telling him that even if the faithfuls suffer trouble, trials,executions ,doesn't mean they should cry as being forsaken by God.........
    you got it ?
    Last edited by Al-manar; 06-14-2010 at 10:08 AM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    but not as the beloved ,perfect number 3 .....

    actually number three has most of the cake ...

    anyway if you understood my post that I don't believe in the trinity cause it is of three elements not four or two etc...
    then I suggest you misunderstood it...
    why I don't believe in the trinity (giving direct reasons) is coming soon ....




    It means for me nothing,if it really happened ..



    I don't think it was necessary for him to suffer ..............and even if he suffered ,he wasn't the first nor the last to suffer in such world of suffering...




    so what is your counter point here !?




    so you suggest the words of Matthew put on the mouth of Jesus,have nothing to do with the words of psalms? if so then do you believe that jesus said what he meant and meant what he say? if not, why not?



    Did they lie? and what motivated them to lie?

    both questions ,will be dealt with through the terms (prophecy) and (errancy)



    but Jesus on the cross ,seems to think otherwise !... though being faithful ,yet cried as being forsaken .....
    would you believe him !?




    yet his cry as one been taken by surprise ....



    If only one convey your message to Jesus(as depicted on the cross),telling him that even if the faithfuls suffer trouble, trials,executions ,doesn't mean they should cry as being forsaken by God.........
    you got it ?
    I do not understand what is the problem with the number three...
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    but not as the beloved ,perfect number 3 ..... actually number three has most of the cake ... anyway if you understood my post that I don't believe in the trinity cause it is of three elements not four or two etc... then I suggest you misunderstood it...why I don't believe in the trinity (giving direct reasons) is coming soon ....
    We wait and see as the proof you promised last post has not shown yet.

    With regard to suffering I cannot make out what you think 'should' have been? Do you think prophets never suffered? Do you think it is wrong to complain and ask God why? If one looks for example at the Psalms they are full of anguished cries to God about why he did or did not do something, why the wicked prospered. We I think do the same, we wonder why God allows pilgrims to be blown up on the way to the Mosque, why dictators seem to prosper, why an earthquake occurs, why someone close to us suffers, this list is endless - do you think God does not want us to say what we think, to lay our cares and worried before him, to say how we feel?
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
    I do not understand what is the problem with the number three...
    we don't have a problem with it,it is just great deal of people in past and present were obsessed with it,(I have just mentioned few examples) in their semi-fictional literature....


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    Do you think prophets never suffered?
    first: depends on what you mean by suffering...
    It is ok, if it is the suffering in preaching the message or suffering physical harm from every kind even murdering.....but when it comes to being executed for washing someone else sins,there we disagree ....

    second: prophets would suffer and die ,God would never....

    clear?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    Do you think it is wrong to complain and ask God why?
    yes ,I think so

    Holy Quran [12:80] and never give up hope of God's Soothing Mercy: truly no one despairs of God's Soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith."

    Holy Quran 21:23 He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    If one looks for example at the Psalms they are full of anguished cries to God about why he did or did not do something,do you think God does not want us to say what we think, to lay our cares and worried before him, to say how we feel?
    If so what was Jesus worried about? why he felt forsaken by God ,and interpreted his feelings in words?
    Did he get a divine promise in advance to be saved ,but finally was deceived ,abandoned? the opposite,according to the text is true ! ..he was promised,and he himself promised the listeners that he will be executed!...

    Hugo, you just keep on dancing around the problem......
    Last edited by Al-manar; 06-15-2010 at 04:21 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    depends on what you mean by suffering... It is ok, if it is the suffering in preaching the message or suffering physical harm from every kind even murdering.....but when it comes to being executed for washing someone else sins,there we disagree ....
    It is a non-argument to start by saying you don't understand the word 'suffering' and if one has to explain every word we will get nowhere fast. We might suffer for our faith, we might suffer sickness and we might suffer if you like because we deserve it - I take it that is what you mean by 'even murder' I cannot say that all these things are 'ok' though I am not entirely sure what you mean by saying that - can you explain? No matter what your view of Jesus what you are saying here is very odd - someone might in many kinds of circumstances give up their life for another but you argue that such a self-sacrifice is not 'ok' and indeed 'murder' is ok but not this?
    Holy Quran [12:80] and never give up hope of God's Soothing Mercy: truly no one despairs of God's Soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith." Holy Quran 21:23 He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).
    I am not sure what translation you used here but it looks like your are quoting Q12:87 from Yosuf Ali and I cannot see how it can be any kind of proof text that we should not bring our deepest feelings to God. Your second quote contextually is about those who choose other gods so again it does not seem to me to be forbidding an anguished cry to God.
    If so what was Jesus worried about? why he felt forsaken by God ,and interpreted his feelings in words? Did he get a divine promise in advance to be saved ,but finally was deceived ,abandoned? the opposite,according to the text is true ! ..he was promised,and he himself promised the listeners that he will be executed!...Hugo, you just keep on dancing around the problem......
    I think you are mistaken, I don't see any problem here. The Gospels tell of God being with us in the person of Jesus and therefore has limitations and so it is not unreasonable that he cried out in anguish before and on the cross. But as I have said before, you are not contextualising anything you say but just it seems bringing your own views - you are coming with a pre-conceived notion. Clear now? You don't have to believe any of the Gospels just as I don't have to trust any of the Qu'ran but in both cases we have to know what the orthodox teaching is.

    On the question of suffering and anguished calls to God, blaming God, asking why he allows things that seem bad are found everywhere in the Bible and to me seem entirely consistent with humanity, the way God has made the world and us. Why do you think the Bible reports this kind of thing and as I said does it almost everywhere. You might care to look at the Psalms of David and see just how often this happens.
    Last edited by Hugo; 06-15-2010 at 07:33 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post
    My understanding is askew or your beliefs simply make no logical sense? I think the choice here is obvious!

    all the best
    Your understanding of Christian beliefs are askew from our actual beliefs. We will always disagree as to whether Islam or Christianity is the truth, but that is not my point of contention with you. My concern is your misunderstanding and resultant misrepresentation of what our beliefs actually are. You create something that is indeed illogical and not the truth, label it Christianity, and then reject it. But what you reject isn't actually Christian teaching, but rather your distorted version of them. You may assert that Christianity is itself distorted, and you might even be right. But saying that Christianity is in error because it present Jesus as forsaken by God doesn't make Christianity in error when in fact Christianity doesn't actually teach that point of view. Al-manar's discussion of the same question does a much better job of dealing honestly with the relevant data.



    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    Jesus cries as been forsaken... and you say no,he wasn't forsaken !! just why don't you believe him!?

    but that can be understood ,I know why you don't believe what he said, it is really unbelievable!! ...

    what kind of people that God would forsake?

    Deuteronomy 31:17
    On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed.

    he won't forsake ?

    Psalm 37:28
    For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;

    don't you think jesus knew that?!!

    to make matter worse ,anyone who would read the context of the writings of Matthew and such zealous savior who was more than eager to be executed and reminded his listeners time after time that it is a must for him to be killed eg;Luke 24:46 ,he even get angry with peter ,calling him satan when he asked for the safety of jesus, the over zealous savior would even ask his betrayer at the last supper to deport him faster to the Jews....

    all of that inconsistent with his desperate cry (my God ,My God why have you forsaken me)
    such textual problem... forced some biblical scholars to argue that Jesus was quoting the psalms !!

    That indeed was a quotation from psalms ,but not by jesus ... it was by either the writer of Mark or Matthew (depending on who copied the other material ,which is still a controversial matter).....

    Matthew (or Mark) being influenced by the old testament literally style... he wanted to add as much quotation as possible to compose the final scene of such sad monopoly ..he continued his talent of misapplying some old testament phrases on his story lines ..and the odd phrase to the context (my God ,My God why have you forsaken me) is just one of the many textual defects in his narratives......

    more on such serious matter,will be exposed in details later ..inshaAllah...
    So, now one must ask whether or not the quotation by Matthew is in fact something Jesus uttered from the cross? I would think that the Islamic answer would be "No" based simply on the assertion by the Qur'an that Jesus was never on a cross to have uttered such a thing. So, then one must ask why does Matthew (or Mark or any other originator of this story line) include them? That they are part of the original telling of this story is indisputable given that when looking at any variant reading of the passage the statement is still made. By your theory, then, a later writer is putting this words in Jesus' mouth. What for?

    Is it your assertion that the redactor is trying to make a case for Jesus as one who was forsaken by God? If the redactor was just quoting scripture "to add as much quotation as possible to compose the final scene of such sad monopoly" then why this text? Why not another?

    I suggest he quotes this text because Jesus really does reference it himself. But he also is experiencing crucifixion and he doesn't quote the whole of it. Rather, in the same way that people quote the opening lines of a song or a poem, or even just the verse reference numbers of a passage, so Jesus recalls this Psalm that focus on the assurance of a God who does not abandoned the oppressed and suffering to his mind by reciting it's opening line. In the context of Jesus' own suffering on the cross it fits perfectly and (IMHO) would provide both consolation and hope in the knowledge that despite the very real physical pain of the moment (and I suspect spiritual pain as well, at least from my theological viewpoint) that this was NOT the end of the story. And that God would in fact be faithful to NOT abandon him. So it is that the NT Church writes of Christ's time on the cross as one involving suffering, but it never uses the word forsaken to describe it. Indeed, it claims the exact opposite:
    Acts 2
    24God raised him [Jesus of Nazareth] from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
    " 'I saw the Lord always before me.
    Because he is at my right hand,
    I will not be shaken.
    26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
    my body also will live in hope,
    27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
    nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
    28You have made known to me the paths of life;
    you will fill me with joy in your presence.'
    29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 06-15-2010 at 08:33 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    Your understanding of Christian beliefs are askew from our actual beliefs. We will always disagree as to whether Islam or Christianity is the truth, but that is not my point of contention with you. My concern is your misunderstanding and resultant misrepresentation of what our beliefs actually are. You create something that is indeed illogical and not the truth, label it Christianity, and then reject it. But what you reject isn't actually Christian teaching, but rather your distorted version of them. You may assert that Christianity is itself distorted, and you might even be right. But saying that Christianity is in error because it present Jesus as forsaken by God doesn't make Christianity in error when in fact Christianity doesn't actually teach that point of view. :
    It isn't the only reason I think christianity is in error, although it is indeed obvious to the naked eye that a god has forsaken himself, but continues to do it millenniums later of his effigies ...

    jesusx 1 - Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items clear 1 - Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items enlarge 1 - Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items Enlarge By Tiffani West-May, AP clear 1 - Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items Flames shot up from the "King of King's" statue of Jesus Christ early Tuesday morning after it was struck by lightning.

    your insistence that I don't understand 'the real Christianity' is mind boggling to me.. it isn't as difficult as all that.. we are not talking of some equation that requires some conceptualization and advanced mathematics and what a shameful thing that would be then for a god to complicate matters so much so that he is accessible to only a select few Illuminati...and even if you were to elucidate your points which I doubt you'll be able to with some dexterity without creating a new creed all together, I don't know why anyone should subscribe to it as truth and forgo all the other sects, when you have admittedly as well as your other biblical scholars Concorde that the 'good book' you hold in your hands isn't the unadulterated word of God!

    all the best
    Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    [COLOR="black"] We might suffer for our faith, we might suffer sickness and we might suffer if you like because we deserve it - I take it that is what you mean by 'even murder' I cannot say that all these things are 'ok' though I am not entirely sure what you mean by saying that - can you explain? .
    some prophets were killed that is what I meant ... and I have no objection neither wonder about that, but when the matter comes to falsely making significance to their death in the form of a pagan ,immoral,savage creed of blood atonement ..there we disagree...


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    No matter what your view of Jesus what you are saying here is very odd
    the real odd is what Jesus said on the cross....

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    I am not sure what translation you used here but it looks like your are quoting Q12:87 from Yosuf Ali and I cannot see how it can be any kind of proof text that we should not bring our deepest feelings to God.
    If such deepest feelings a despair of God then the verse named who are those with such feelings..
    and again, what made Jesus complain?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    Your second quote contextually is about those who choose other gods so again it does not seem to me to be forbidding an anguished cry to God
    any cry of despair or asking God why, is condemned....

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir
    (He cannot be questioned about what He does, while they will be questioned.) He is the Ruler Whose rule cannot be overturned and none can object to it, because of His might, majesty, pride, knowledge, wisdom, justice and subtlety.
    (while they will be questioned.) means, He is the One Who will ask His creation about what they did. This is like the verse (So, by your Lord, We shall certainly call all of them to account. For all that they used to do.) [15:92-93] also (And He protects (all), while against Whom there is no protector) [23:88]


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    The Gospels tell of God being with us in the person of Jesus and therefore has limitations
    If God had limitations what was the distinction between him and man?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    and so it is not unreasonable that he cried out in anguish before and on the cross.
    what is unreasonable, It is when Christians degrade their supreme being claiming that he was inferior in faith to hundreds of thousands of persons who suffered oppressions with faith, silence, patience, and perfect resignation !.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    On the question of suffering and anguished calls to God, blaming God, asking why he allows things that seem bad are found everywhere in the Bible and to me seem entirely consistent with humanity
    but seems entirely inconsistent with Jesus( aka God) on the cross ...
    Last edited by Al-manar; 06-15-2010 at 10:22 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    Now let's visit the second theory suggested regarding the cry of despair..


    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    So, now one must ask whether or not the quotation by Matthew is in fact something Jesus uttered from the cross? I would think that the Islamic answer would be "No" based simply on the assertion by the Qur'an that Jesus was never on a cross to have uttered such a thing.:
    the answer based not only on on the assertion by the Qur'an but also by objective analysis isolated from the Quran...

    the same problem(s) the Quran criticizes the bible for,been used by other non-Muslims in past and present.....


    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    So, then one must ask why does Matthew (or Mark or any other originator of this story line) include them? That they are part of the original telling of this story is indisputable given that when looking at any variant reading of the passage the statement is still made. By your theory, then, a later writer is putting this words in Jesus' mouth. What for?:
    that is not my theory..... my theory is clear the writers used Pesher like technique to excess, and such passage is used by one of them ,been repeated by another as well....
    just compare Mark and Mathew to see the stunning copy and paste ,one get from another...

    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    If the redactor was just quoting scripture "to add as much quotation as possible to compose the final scene of such sad monopoly" then why this text? Why not another?
    that question was answered by Luke who was a better composer ,and ignored such cry of despair ,putting another one of hope...
    Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (Luke 23:46)


    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    so Jesus recalls this Psalm that focus on the assurance of a God who does not abandoned the oppressed and suffering to his mind by reciting it's opening line.
    In the context of Jesus' own suffering on the cross it fits perfectly
    Psalm's David and jesus at the cross won't fit :

    1- David the sinful ,adulterer(according to the bible) etc... , should have been forsaken by God... That’s what sinners deserve!
    that is why he complained , questioning God
    yet Jesus (according to your understanding) wasn't complaining, wasn't questioning God because he was God in the flesh...

    2- David felt forsaken,and was really forsaken (at least before uttering the words)... on the other hand Jesus never felt forsaken,neither been forsaken

    3- according to psalm ,David’s enemies threatened to kill him, and so David had to flee for his life, he believed God would save him ,after all his prayers , God did eventually save David from his earthly enemies.
    David seek not a the victory over death , he was just scared to die a shameful one, executed by his enemies... unlike Jesus who is said to been eager to be killed by his enemies…

    4- If the victory of Jesus been resurrection,just where in the chapter whom you claim he quoted ,any mention of victory by resurrection?

    Is that what you call ,perfectly fits !?


    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    Acts 2 24God raised him [Jesus of Nazareth] from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
    " 'I saw the Lord always before me.
    Because he is at my right hand,
    I will not be shaken.
    26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
    my body also will live in hope,
    27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
    nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
    28You have made known to me the paths of life;
    you will fill me with joy in your presence.'
    29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

    After checking that passage and the other Psalms(and the rest of the old testament) passages used by the writers ,I would say, that The psalm has been accommodated to contemporary fancies

    what does the writer of Psalms says?

    Psalms 16 :27 because you will not abandon me to the grave(sheh-ole'),
    nor will you let your Holy One see decay (shakh'-ath).

    sh'owl (sheh-ole')
    Hades or the world of the dead
    shachath (shakh'-ath)
    a pit (especially as a trap); figuratively, destruction -- corruption, destruction, ditch, grave, pit.

    the text opens the door for speculations

    The text could be understood as:

    first
    "David was assured that the Lord would preserve his life in the face of death. He rejoiced because God enabled his body to rest securely even when confronted with death. The reason he could rest is that God would not abandon him to the grave, nor let His holy one see decay. This verse refers to David, who describes himself as God's "holy one," that is, one of God's saints (cf. v. 3). He took comfort in the fact that God would not, at that time, allow his body to die and decay in the grave. In fact, God had caused him to know the path of life so he anticipated experiencing further joy in God's presence (vs. 11)."
    The Bible Knowledge Commentary

    .........

    the psalm in its original context “does not deal with resurrection, or even
    immortality, but with the rescue from an acute mortal danger
    the original meaning because the language of this psalm is no different from other psalms
    where the psalmist asks for “protection and sheltering against the danger of death.”
    Most scholars,understanding the reference being to not dying, assume that the psalmist is merely
    referring to an immediate threat to his life and is not expecting to live forever
    the psalm reflects the style and language of other deliverance psalms where the psalmist
    is merely praying to be delivered from “an acute mortal danger” and that there is no
    warrant for seeing anything more than that in the psalm....
    Kraus, Hans-Joachim. Psalms 1-59: A Commentary.


    Another understanding:

    David’s body did not decay in the grave (read,Midr. Ps. 16:10)

    Though the word( Pit) in verse 10 is a synonym of sheol (as the parallelism clearly demonstrates) ,the Septuagint and other translations render it (corruption) In psalm 16,this interpretation might be supported by the broader context, i.e., the statement (my body also rests secure)__this teaches that decomposition and larvae have no dominion over his (David) body ; “you don’t give me up to sheol”-__ his flesh will not decompose into dust in the grave “or let your faithful one see the pit”__he doesn’t even smell the scent of hell. The interpretation offered by Rabbi yetzhak suggests that David’s flesh didn’t decompose, as his flesh doesn’t turn to dust in the grave nor indeed does he smell the scent of hell…
    Judaism of the Second Temple period, Volume 2
    By David Flusser


    that similar to:

    the prophet peace be upon him said:
    “Verily Allah has made forbidden for the earth the consumption of the bodies of the Prophets - may Allah’s prayer be upon them.” [ narrated Abi Dawood]


    well, we are asked to leave such two possible,solid understandings and resort to a vague ,desperate understanding by the writer of Acts......

    now let's add more to the problem,exposing another problem of the same passage in acts:


    format_quote Originally Posted by Ex,christian missionary Farrell till
    I don't think that inerrantists can give any compelling reasons in support of Peter's view, but I can definitely give some compelling reasons to reject his view. First, there are the facts already noted: (1) the psalm was written in the first person and so the situations spoken about can best be understood as personal references to the writer's own condition, and (2) there is simply no language in the psalm that can be interpreted only as references to a resurrection from the dead. In addition to all this, there was a strategic error that Peter made in his zeal to prove that the 16th Psalm was speaking of the resurrection of Jesus. After saying that David was "both dead and buried" and that "his tomb is with us to this day," Peter went on to say, "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, *He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,* he foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ..." (vs:30-31).

    To prove Peter's argument, inerrantists must show us where the Old Testament says that God swore with an oath to David that he would "raise up the Christ to sit on his throne." The clear implication of Peter's statement is that God had sworn with an oath to David that he would resurrect the Christ to sit on David's throne; otherwise, Peter made no sense when he said, "He [David] foreseeing this [that the Christ would be resurrected to sit on his throne], spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ." So just where in the Old Testament did Yahweh ever speak with an oath to David that a Messiah from "the fruit of his body" would be resurrected to sit on his throne"?

    The best that reference Bibles can do in support of Peter's claim is list Psalm 89:3; 132:11; and 2 Samuel 7:12. If we examine them individually, however, we will see that they do not refer to the resurrection of any of David's descendants for the purpose of having them sit on David's throne. Psalm 89:3 says, "I have made a covenant with My chosen, I have sworn to My servant David: your seed I will establish forever; your faithfulness you shall establish in the very heavens." Establishing David's seed forever is at best a promise to establish his throne through a process of having a natural descendant of David occupy it in each succeeding generation, so where is the oath in this statement that God would resurrect a descendant of David to sit on his throne? It isn't there, except in the minds of those who are desperate to prove an untenable position.

    Admittedly, the prophets promised that David's throne would be established forever, but they clearly meant the literal throne of David that would be maintained by an endless line of David's descendants. In their fanatical ethnocentrism, the Hebrew prophets thought that their little nation was favored of Yahweh, who would always protect them and see that their kingdom lasted forever, but in no sense were the Jews looking for the establishment of some "spiritual kingdom." This was an idea that was hatched up by the New Testament writers as a way of presenting an allegedly resurrected Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah. This can clearly be seen by analyzing Psalm 132:11, the second reference-Bible proof text for Peter's claim. "Yahweh has sworn in truth to David; He will not run from it: `I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.'" Again, there is nothing in this statement that even implies that the psalmist meant that a descendant of David would be resurrected from the dead to sit on David's throne. It was simply a promise that the throne of David would be established through his descendants. That this was the clear intention of the statement is shown by the very next verse: "If your sons will keep my covenant and my testimony which I shall teach them, their sons also shall sit upon your throne forever."

    What could be clearer than this? Yahweh promised to establish the throne of David "from the fruit of [David's] body" and if these sons [plural] of David kept Yahweh's covenant and his testimony, their sons also would sit upon David's throne forever. Obviously, this was not a promise that just one person (Jesus) would be resurrected from the dead to sit on David's throne. It wasn't a promise of a resurrection (period); it was simply a promise that Yahweh would establish David's throne forever through his sons and then their sons if they kept Yahweh's covenant. So what is the compelling reason for us to believe that Peter was right when he said that God had sworn with an oath to David that he would resurrect one of David's descendants to sit on his throne?

    Both of the quotations from the Psalms appear to refer to 2 Samuel 7:12- 14. Yahweh, speaking to David through the prophet Nathan, said, "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men." It cannot be claimed that this "son" who would come from the seed of David was Jesus, because Yahweh said, "If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men," but Jesus was allegedly without iniquity. Whoever this "son" was, he was going to "build a house for My Name," and this sounds very suspiciously like a reference to Solomon. The first part of this chapter (as well as the part after the above quotation) discussed the building of a house for Yahweh so that he would not have to dwell in a tent (the tabernacle). It is simply a matter of Old Testament record that Solomon was the one who built this house or temple (1 Kings 6-8), so clearly this promise of a son who would sit on David's throne was a reference to Solomon and not some descendant who would be born a thousand years later.

    There is simply no Old Testament support for Peter's claim that Yahweh had sworn with an oath to resurrect one of David's descendants to sit on his throne, but there is a New Testament statement attributed to the apostle Paul that makes it logically impossible for the Old Testament to contain any prophecy of the resurrection of Jesus. In a speech allegedly made in the synagogue at Antioch of Pisidia, Paul said of the crucifixion of Jesus, "Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb" (Acts 13:29). Please notice what Luke attributed to Paul in this sermon. He said that all that had been written concerning Jesus had been fulfilled when they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. Now if all that had been written of Jesus was fulfilled when they took him down from the cross (tree), then the resurrection could not have been written about in the Old Testament, because the resurrection allegedly happened after Jesus was taken down and laid in a tomb.

    Some may point to verses 33-37 and say, "That can't be right, because Paul went on to quote the same passage that Peter did from Psalm 16 as a prophecy of the resurrection." That's true, but Paul can't have it both ways. If everything that had been written of Jesus when they took him down from the cross had been fulfilled, then there could have been no prophecies of Jesus's resurrection, but if there were prophecies of Jesus's resurrection, then everything that had been written about him could not have been fulfilled when he was taken down from the cross. Either way, inerrantists have a problem, and I would be happy to see them satisfactorily explain away either one.

    So all of the evidence points to misrepresentation or distortion of Old Testament scriptures by the New Testament writers who claimed that the prophets had foretold the resurrection of Jesus. There are simply no reasonable grounds for claiming that there had been prophecies in the Old Testament of the Messiah's resurrection...



    Now back to the item (God's agent) before we go to other arenas non intended to be discussed right now.....

    peace
    Last edited by Al-manar; 06-18-2010 at 03:41 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    the answer based not only on on the assertion by the Qur'an but also by objective analysis isolated from the Quran... the same problem(s) the Quran criticizes the bible for,been used by other non-Muslims in past and present.....that is not my theory..... my theory is clear the writers used the Pesher technique to excess, and such passage is used by one of them ,been repeated by another as well....[
    Firstly, what makes you think the Qu'ran can be trusted here since clearly it only has a single witness and a private revelation of the kind involved can only be considered hearsay?

    Secondly, you have mentioned Pesher before but I am unsure from what you say that you have any grasp of what it means and perhaps we would classify it today as a form of hermeneutics. Pesher is a Hebrew word meaning "interpretation" and it became known from one group of texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Wikepedia has a good entry on this and in summary the pesharim gave a theory of scriptural interpretation, essentially the writers of pesharim believe that scripture is written in two levels, the surface for ordinary readers with limited knowledge, the concealed one for specialists with higher knowledge.

    Put more simply pesher is a way of writing a commentary so you assertion that the Gospel writers used it makes no sense as they were not writing a commentary on an existing scripture but offering eye witness reports. As far as I know in books and scholarly articles, only DR Barbara Thiering peculiarly applies the term pesher to her elaborate, newly "rediscovered" interpretive technique. According to her, in the four Gospels, Acts and Revelation, historical facts have been encoded into the text; they were written and may be revealed by applying the method, forgotten for twenty centuries. Her theory has been widely disparaged and dismissed by scholars, and Thiering's thesis has received little support.

    I can see why it is attractive to you because you come with your own agenda. Two short reviews will suffice here.

    Geza Vermes - Vermes outlined the academic reception of her work stating: "Professor Barbara Thiering's reinterpretation of the New Testament, in which the married, divorced, and remarried Jesus, father of four, becomes the "Wicked Priest" of the Dead Sea Scrolls, has made no impact on learned opinion. Scroll scholars and New Testament experts alike have found the basis of the new theory, Thiering's use of the so-called "pesher technique", without substance."

    Thomas Wright - wrote it is safe to say that no serious scholar has given this elaborate and fantastic theory any credence whatsoever. It is nearly ten years since it was published; the scholarly world has been able to take a good look at it: and the results are totally negative.
    Last edited by Hugo; 06-17-2010 at 10:59 AM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    [COLOR="black"]Firstly, what makes you think the Qu'ran can be trusted here since clearly it only has a single witness and a private revelation of the kind involved can only be considered hearsay?
    don't you get tired of this? Go ahead and prove that the Quran isn't a source to be trusted.. you know the same way your own biblical scholars (like Metzger) have proven in regard to your bible's textual or historical accuracy and then come run this line by us again..
    If you couldn't finish the previous topics on the integrity of the Quran for obvious reasons, then don't sneakily raise the same points that have been annihilated just to make another nonpoint. .. It is a losing battle when your book isn't even a contender to stand trial and monolithic in its beliefs!

    all the best
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post
    don't you get tired of this? Go ahead and prove that the Quran isn't a source to be trusted.. you know the same way your own biblical scholars (like Metzger) have proven in regard to your bible's textual or historical accuracy and then come run this line by us again..If you couldn't finish the previous topics on the integrity of the Quran for obvious reasons, then don't sneakily raise the same points that have been annihilated just to make another nonpoint. .. It is a losing battle when your book isn't even a contender to stand trial and monolithic in its beliefs!all the best
    This adds nothing to the thread and shows you simply have no idea what logic means as any 4th grader can tell you that it is not possible to prove a negative.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    This adds nothing to the thread and shows you simply have no idea what logic means as any 4th grader can tell you that it is not possible to prove a negative.
    Is it logical to ask an illogical question in rhetoric and accuse others of not knowing what logic is? you've had ample opportunity in prior threads which you yourself started questioning the integrity on the Quran based on its content and historic/scientific accuracies, you were unable to sustain them, and at the same time were unable to defend the deficiencies in your own bible (and they were listed both for chronological 'disorder' and lack of agreement between texts plus lack of cohesive logical sense in more than one thread and properly sourced for your perusal ...It is mind boggling your insistence on the same argument over and over as if to elicit a different response from some other member to pounce on..

    all the best
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    Commenting in the original post

    Good information and I know how hard it is to get the information from both the Bible and Quran so I appreciate your time and effort to get the post up and running.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post
    Is it logical to ask an illogical question in rhetoric and accuse others of not knowing what logic is? you've had ample opportunity in prior threads which you yourself started questioning the integrity on the Quran based on its content and historic/scientific accuracies, you were unable to sustain them, and at the same time were unable to defend the deficiencies in your own bible (and they were listed both for chronological 'disorder' and lack of agreement between texts plus lack of cohesive logical sense in more than one thread and properly sourced for your perusal ...It is mind boggling your insistence on the same argument over and over as if to elicit a different response from some other member to pounce on..
    The thread in question was closed down by the moderators even though it still attracts many visitors. If you want to persist in your delusion that the arguments presented there are not important then ask the visitors why they still go there or do you kid yourself it is to read your diatribes, insults and huge insertions? Better still ask for it to be re-opened and let's revisit the subject but don't spoilt this thread in your usual vindictive manner
    Last edited by Hugo; 06-18-2010 at 06:21 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    The thread in question was closed down by the moderators even though it still attracts many visitors. If you want to persist in your delusion that the arguments presented there are not important then ask the visitors why they still go there or do you kid yourself it is to read your diatribes, insults and huge insertions? Better still ask for it to be re-opened and let's revisit the subject but don't spoilt this thread in your usual vindictive manner

    all the best
    you had more than one thread on the matter, and I can't honestly think of a bigger delusion than the one lived by christians.. on this very thread I have posted various biblical errors which you have refused to comment on. Pointing out very patent obvious flaws for which you personally demand nothing but utmost meticulous detail when comes to the Quran with aversion to any explanation that doesn't cater to your preconceived prejudices but grossly negligent at best when it comes to Christianity with the desire to constantly bury your face in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist simply doesn't qualify as 'usual vindictive' I can't think of anyone more vitriolic when speaking out against Islam, the prophet of the Quran to your host as much as you.. although there are close followups at least they know when to call it quits and run to lick their wounds!

    all the best
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    [COLOR="black"]Firstly, what makes you think the Qu'ran can be trusted
    away from the question of authority(which I give it little care even for the bible),the internal evidence itself is more than enough for me to make it all the way trusted..... but that is not the topic at the moment....


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    you have mentioned Pesher before but I am unsure from what you say that you have any grasp of what it means, you assertion that the Gospel writers used it makes no sense as they were not writing a commentary on an existing scripture but offering eye witness reports.
    Any elementary reading to the gospels shows that the writers tried by all means to infuse the hearsay reports (which you call testimony) with as much as possible old testament passages...... in doing that lots of scholars accused them of using a pesher like technique...

    Originally Posted by Marilyn J. Lundberg
    A Pesher is a kind of commentary on the Bible that was common in the community that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. This kind of commentary is not an attempt to explain what the Bible meant when it was originally written, but rather what it means in the day and age of the commentator, particularly for his own community. In the Isaiah Pesher, or commentary on the book of Isaiah, a verse or verses from Isaiah are quoted. Then the commentary begins, often introduced by the word "pesher," or "the interpretation of the word..." If we were to write a commentary in this way today we might quote a bible verse and then say, "and the meaning of the verse is..." and go on to show the significance of the verse for our own church, synagogue, or society.

    The community which the gospel writers belong to, though being a Jewish group but just as the Qumran group applied quotations from the book of Habakkuk to their founder (the teacher of righteousness) they were convinced that these prophecies found their fulfillments and their ultimate meaning in this person and the community he founded. The quotations they used in the book of Habakkuk indicate that the Qumran group felt free to adapt and shape the text in the light of their convictions about its fulfillment .this type of pesher method is what Matthew and his school exercised with the formula quotations. Matthew’s school shaped and rendered these key quotations to fit the contours of their traditions (a mixture of true and false hearsay accounts) about Jesus and his teachings.
    What are they saying about Matthew?p,230 By Donald Senior


    extensive dealing with that serious matter,with quotes from the scholarly world of the NT, will be included in the following important,crucial item which I believe will be the core of the whole thread...
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    Item :7

    Biblical Errancy vs Quranic Inerrancy


    while an error-free book won't alone prove it as divine, errancy from any kind should get the book under suspicion ..
    both the bible and The Quran claims inerrancy:

    Holy Quran 41:42 No falsehood can approach it(the Quran) from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.

    in the clearest of terms the bible also claims to be the verbal ,plenary inspired word of God
    2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

    not only inerrancy is specifically affirmed in the bible and the Quran but an inference as well:
    the belief of a divine, error-free book is the one that is held by the church for seventeen centuries.
    Due to the produced indisputable evidence of inaccuracies in the bible, a tiny minority of modern Christian scholars , began to be more realistic denying the concept that the bible is an error-free book…. Such concept, though realistic, has a tremendous obstacle to gain popularity among Christians ,as it Ignores the serious consequences for declaring that the bible is errant,the consequences would be the answer to the question:

    Does Biblical Errancy matter?

    quotes by some of the scholars of mainstream Christianity :

    “the very nature of inspiration renders the bible infallible, inspiration involved infallibility from start to finish, if inspiration allows for possibility of errors ;then inspiration ceases to be inspiration.
    Harold Lindsell, The Battle for the Bible

    “Even if the errors are supposedly in ‘minor’ matters, any error opens the Bible to suspicion on other points which may not be so ‘minor.’ If inerrancy falls, other doctrines will fall too.” If we can’t trust Scripture in things like geography, chronology, and history, then how can we be sure we can trust it in its message of salvation and sanctification?
    Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, electronic media.


    Again. a belief in limited inerrancy demands the impossible__that a fallible exegete become an infallible discerner and interpreter of (the word of God)within the scripture .This opens the door for confusion and uncertainty ,undergirded by either subjectivism or personal bias.
    Indeed can the holy spirit inspire error; can the spirit of truth inspire untruth.?
    Handbook of Biblical Evidences By John Ankerberg, John Weldon


    “By this word ( inerrancy) we mean that the Scriptures possess the quality of freedom from error. They are exempt from the liability to mistake, incapable of error. In all their teachings they are in perfect accord with the truth.
    E. J. Young, Thy Word Is Truth, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1957, p. 113

    ‘Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God’s acts in creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary origins under God, than in its witness to God’s saving grace in individual lives’ (James Montgomery Boice, Does Inerrancy Matter?, Oakland: International Council on Biblical Inerrancy, 1979, p. 13.)


    If the biblical record can be proved fallible in areas of fact that can be verified, then it is hardly to be trusted in areas where it cannot be tested. As a witness for God, the Bible would be discredited as untrustworthy. What solid truth it may contain would be left as a matter of mere conjecture, subject to the intuition or canons of likelihood of each individual. An attitude of sentimental attachment to traditional religion may incline one person to accept nearly all the substantive teachings of Scripture as probably true. But someone else with equal justification may pick and chose whatever teachings in the Bible happen to appeal to him and lay equal claim to legitimacy. One opinion is as good as another. All things are possible, but nothing is certain if indeed the Bible contains mistakes or errors of any kind (Gleason Archer ,Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties pp. 23-24).


    Some say that the Bible is inspired in the same sense that great literature is inspired, as the plays of Shakespeare or the poems of Tennyson and Browning. Such people sometimes say, "I know the Bible is inspired because it inspires me." Really they mean that the Bible is not the infallible Word of God but that it is a good inspiring book even though it has mistakes. Some say that God gave the general thought and left it to men to write it down so that of necessity there would be some slight errors. Some say that the New Testament is authoritative and true, but the Old Testament is imperfect and is simply a survival of primitive religious thinking. Some so-called scholars, who are not scholars enough to know what the Bible claims for itself nor the evidence that it is true, teach a so-called "progressive revelation" and say that none of the Bible is reliable except the very words of Jesus, and they doubt many of the statements of the gospels. Many good men are deceived by these theorists and quote them. Some people say that the Bible contains the Word of God but that not all of it is the Word of God. If one must find for himself or depend upon some modernistic scholar to say just how much of the Bible is really the Word of God and authoritative, of course no two living men, on that plan, would perfectly agree as to what was true and what was not. Some good men very foolishly say that the Bible is inspired and reliable for religious knowledge but is not necessarily true in scientific matters, or in history (John R. Rice, Verbal Inspiration of the Bible, Sword of the Lord Publishers, p. 1).


    "The Bible is the inerrant... Word of God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc." (Jerry Falwell,Finding Inner Peace and Strength,Doubleday, 1982, p. 26, ).


    It(The Bible) does not err in its revelation, its assertions relative to doctrine, ethics, history, et al. The autographs were absolutely and totally free from error. The Bible gives a faultless record of everything with which it deals (including lies and faults, at times); it chronicles the record of those errors but does not sanction them. It does claim infallibility in all that it does teach, however. Further, when accurately transmitted/translated, the translation is also inspired, the Word of God" (Biblical Inerrancy: The First Annual Gulf Coast Lectures, Church of Christ, Portland, Texas, 1993, pp. 33-34).


    I believe that God moved the men who wrote the Holy Bible so that the very words they wrote and the very thoughts they expressed were given to them by God and miraculously preserved from every possibility of error. I further believe that Holy Scriptures "since they are the Word of God, contain no errors or contradictions, but are in all their parts and words infallible truth, also in those parts that treat of historical, geographical, and other secular matters" . I will go even further since Jesus went further. I believe that the Bible is not only verbally inspired, but is also totally accurate in its tense, mood, voice, and case (in the original autographs) because Jesus says so
    William Bischoff, a pastor in Bridgeton, Missouri.


    "... But how do you know Jesus except as he is presented to you in the Bible? If the Bible is not God's Word and does not present a picture of Jesus Christ that can be trusted, how do you know it is the true Christ you are following? You may be worshipping a Christ of your own imagination." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 24)

    Once conceding there are errors in the Bible, you have opened a Pandora's Box. How do you know which parts are true if you admit some parts are false. As ICBI said: "... But this position (claiming truthfulness for those parts of the Bible where God, as opposed to men has spoken-ed). is unsound. People who think like this speak of Biblical authority, but at best they have partial Biblical authority since the parts containing errors obviously cannot be authoritative. What is worse, they cannot even tell us precisely what parts are from God and are therefore truthful and what parts are not from God and are in error. Usually they say that the "salvation parts" are from God, but they do not tell us how to separate these from the non-salvation parts." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 8)

    the last valid arguments should be,not only,applied to the bible but the Quran as well....

    to be continued
    Last edited by Al-manar; 07-01-2010 at 05:44 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    Any elementary reading to the gospels shows that the writers tried by all means to infuse the hearsay reports (which you call testimony) with as much as possible old testament passages...... in doing that lots of scholars accused them of using a pesher like technique...
    Can you explain what an 'elementary reading' entails?
    You do not seem to know what 'hearsay' means, it means that a report has no evidence to back it up, an example is the supposed revelation of the Qu'ran to Mohammed - he is the only witness and by definition it is hearsay. In contrast the Gospels had many witnesses and therefore it cannot be hearsay.

    I am unsure what 'Matthews school' means but you seem to be of the view that anyone who makes a quotation from an earlier work is using pesher. If that were true then David in the Psalms was using pesher as he often quotes extensively from the books of Moses - so he was using pesher before it was even invented. In a similar way, I can argue that since the Qu'ran uses Biblical stories extensively that Mohammed must have been using pesher as well.

    Of course the Biblical writers everywhere quote from earlier books. Jesus himself is recorded as having referred to the OT on many occasions. The Gospels are eye witness reports and there seems little if any doubt about that.
    Last edited by Hugo; 06-27-2010 at 06:07 PM.
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    Re: Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    [COLOR="black"]Can you explain what an 'elementary reading' entails?
    The elementary reading is the one that you should do, to open the first page of the gospel of Matthew and learn that Matthew not merely recording a story about Jesus but tried to infuse some old testament verses making the impression that it has a connection and meaning applied to what happened in his narrative regarding jesus

    Eg; He began falsely claiming that the virgin birth of jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament ,passing by other passages eg; Jeremiah 31:15 Psalm 22; Isaiah 53 etc… the same did the other writers of the gospels …..
    All that will be exposed in details soon …..

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    you seem to be of the view that anyone who makes a quotation from an earlier work is using pesher.
    That is not what I said… the problem is not quoting the old ,it is, what are you gonna do with what you quote ?


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    If that were true then David in the Psalms was using pesher as he often quotes extensively from the books of Moses
    If David(just as ALL of the writers of the new testament) tried to twist the text applying it to the wrong time and place then he surely used a pesher like technique .....


    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    Jesus himself is recorded as having referred to the OT on many occasions. The Gospels are eye witness reports and there seems little if any doubt about that.
    I don’t think Jesus referred to the Old Testament the way it depicted in the gospels, cause if that is true then we have no choice but to accuse him as a big deceiver
    But that is not the way we muslims think… we instead give the lie for the writers not Jesus peace be upon him….
    Last edited by Al-manar; 06-27-2010 at 07:15 PM.
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