Yikes, Non Muslims have invaded the Boards.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

It just shows the us vs them tribal mentality that too often takes over this board.

Us vs them? I can easily show you posts of sis Lily where she's been equally direct or straightforward with Muslims.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

salaam

when not understanding a hadith and commenting on it is a very foolish thing to do indeed.

peace

that would require some efforts and everyone here is comfortable with their ideology.. for instance the atheist if fond of 'tribalism' it is a term he references often-- one can safely conclude that categorizing occurrences is comfortable for him because anything beyond that requires a thought outside the box, that is further cemented by his need to have the last word especially so when the topic is geared in a direction that is well 'less tribal' how can he drive the drivel home if the examples available don't readily fit into that status quo?.. so naturally instigating an incident, any incident to cause ire and inflame whereby he can have an 'I told you so moment' is ultimately very necessary and will crop often..

.. I am amused often, I think for the most part people can see through the charade but if you like to regress back to schoolboy buffooneries and puerile antics then pull up a chair and get some popcorn for mediocre entertainment..

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I also know that there are 1000 other passages that could have been quoted, and she chose this one. I'm not saying that one should not chose this one even. I'm just saying that I see some irony in this being so significant in Lily's life that it is used as her signature and her at the same time saying that she is not at war. She is....with the forces of darkness or any other thing (or I suspect person) that stands as an enemy to Allah. I actually think that such a stance is commendable. But there does remain a touch of irony in the two, don't you think?

No, not at all. There is absolutely no reason that any of us would hesitate to quote that hadeeth or think twice about it. Personally, it is one of my favourites too, and I certainly wouldn't choose from 1000 others if I liked that one the most, found it the most comforting, or the most encouraging to do good deeds.

If someone else were to use it, you perhaps wouldn't bat an eyelid, so I'm not sure why you're doing so here. Due to your lack of understanding of it, because the word war is mentioned, to you that is what the whole hadeeth is about, thus anyone who quotes it must be at war with others, and that "being at war with others" must be so significant in their life for them to have quoted it. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way, and if you read beyond the first sentence, you'll get an idea of what the hadeeth might be about.

There are other passages as well, where Allah mentions his anger with people who do certain acts, and immense pleasure with those who do certain other acts, in the same passage. Now if I quoted one of those, then to you, I guess the inference will be that I am an angry person? That's a rather strange way of reasoning.

You don't seem to be reading beyond the first sentence of it, have homed in on one word of your choosing out of all the words in it, created an issue out of a signature of all things, and put 2 and 2 together to make 5.

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Grace Seeker, either of those quotes will do, though I was referring generally to the hostile attitude contained in the post while purporting to be a post about not being hostile or looking for fights. Seems now even you have been declared an "instigator" and enemy, which to me is rather laughable. You're one of the most bend over backwards to get along with everybody posters I've seen on here. It just shows the us vs them tribal mentality that too often takes over this board.

Your doing a great job of reducing the "us vs "them" tribal mentality! no wonder it takes over this board. Oh I'm sorry this post was directed to Grace seeker - I get it the rest of us must be "them".

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Your doing a great job of reducing the "us vs "them" tribal mentality! no wonder it takes over this board. Oh I'm sorry this post was directed to Grace seeker - I get it the rest of us must be "them".

I'd really rather you didn't see yourself that way. But some here clearly do, regarding those who think as they do as brothers and sisters and those who may have other ideas as the enemy to be attacked. I would rather have a discussion with all of us without the hostility towards "the other" which is why although my ideas may be offensive to some, I make every effort to refrain from personal attacks ( though it can be hard to resist responding in kind to those who act in such a manner). Ideas are not people and ideas can be exchanged, explored, endorsed, and criticized without reducing the whole thing to "my team" vs "your team" and schoolyard taunts as too often happens. If people declare those who don't think like they do as enemies then all hope for peace is lost.

^
I agree.
Personally, I have learned much about Islam and the conduct it teaches from Insane Insaan and others like her. Thank you, all of you. You know who you are.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I'd really rather you didn't see yourself that way. But some here clearly do, regarding those who think as they do as brothers and sisters and those who may have other ideas as the enemy to be attacked. I would rather have a discussion with all of us without the hostility towards "the other" which is why although my ideas may be offensive to some, I make every effort to refrain from personal attacks ( though it can be hard to resist responding in kind to those who act in such a manner). Ideas are not people and ideas can be exchanged, explored, endorsed, and criticized without reducing the whole thing to "my team" vs "your team" and schoolyard taunts as too often happens. If people declare those who don't think like they do as enemies then all hope for peace is lost.

the last 3 posts above me preety much show us tribalism - 3 non muslims preety much saying the same thing - do you think that pointing out specific people isnt a personal attack? which most of you are doing here. The simple thing is that you guys are on a islamicboard forum - not a christain board, not an atheist board - theres bound to be people taking sides simply because those who believe in Islam will clearly take one side and the people that disagree the other side. The same is with atheists and christians. So its preety much hypocircy to say we shouldnt do "us" vs "them" when all of us will ultimatly fall into that area anyway. You guys are a great example of it right here - you just made a tribe.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

The simple thing is that you guys are on a islamicboard forum - not a christain board, not an atheist board - theres bound to be people taking sides simply because those who believe in Islam will clearly take one side and the people that disagree the other side. The same is with atheists and christians.

Actually, I think that's very simplified.

I am a Christian, but that does not mean I cannot agree with people from other faiths or none on certain issues.
I often find myself agreeing with the Muslims or atheists here on some issues - and I say so.
Equally, I sometimes find myself disagreeing with other Christians - and I say so too.

I may follow a specific faith, but that does not mean I do not share views and opinions with those from other faiths and worldviews.

Most debates may have an 'us vs. them' element - but it doesn't have to be 'my religion' vs. 'your religion'.

And when we disagree with each other - it isn't a question of always agreeing with one another, but the ability to disagree amicably and not to let that disagreement cloud our relationship with others permanently.

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Actually, I think that's very simplified.

I am a Christian, but that does not mean I cannot agree with people from other faiths or none on certain issues.
I often find myself agreeing with the Muslims or atheists here on some issues - and I say so.
Equally, I sometimes find myself disagreeing with other Christians - and I say so too.

I may follow a specific faith, but that does not mean I do not share views and opinions with those from other faiths and worldviews.

Most debates may have an 'us vs. them' element - but it doesn't have to be 'my religion' vs. 'your religion'.

And when we disagree with each other - it isn't a question of always agreeing with one another, but the ability to disagree amicably and not to let that disagreement cloud our relationship with others permanently.

You do understand that your on a religious forum? thats why there are so many threads about 1 religion vs the other or one belief vs the other. At the end of the day it is an islamicboard. Second all debates get reduced to "us" vs "them" anyway and this isnt exclusive any muslim but everyone - christains and atheists included.

Simply sharing a belief with an atheist and undisclosed shows that you can have common views - that doesnt mean that your out of the "us" vs "them" sphere. Anybody that comes on this thread can see that.

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Most debates may have an 'us vs. them' element - but it doesn't have to be 'my religion' vs. 'your religion'.
]

You are absolutely right, you don't use the us vs. them approach, rather the I have read and confused approach for instance, you've read the Quran cover to cover yet confused about the 'mohammedan practice' of pilgrimage in which you not only missed a good 23~24 verses on the matter but a chapter so entitled!

you are confused as to why God would grant respite to Muslim women during the fast of Ramadan so you conclude it must be because God despises women and thinks they are dirty. conveniently ignoring verses in the bible that actually echo that exact sentiment that you wish to project unto Islam.

you are confused as to why we fast, and decide to fast a day in 'show of solidarity' yet come with the verse from your bible that you don't desire to fast as you put it 'the hypocrites do' which in fact for no other reason than learning of the hardships and discipline that Muslims go through, so 'hypocrisy' seems like a nicer alternative!

etc. etc. but who is keeping record when you are so fair, and just and loving?

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by titus

My post highlighted two methods of dialogue. One which I find condusive to friendly dialogue and one that I find opposed to friendly dialogue.

Both examples were written by Muslims, so I fail to see how my post, and those that agreed with it, can be seen as "us vs them". If you would like I could also easily give examples of both kinds of posts from non-muslims also.

Looking again might help from all your comments.

format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan

If someone else were to use it, you perhaps wouldn't bat an eyelid, so I'm not sure why you're doing so here.

This is very true. Indeed, Lily has used it for a considerable period of time and I didn't bat an eye(lid) at it until the post above. Then the contrast was, to me at least, rather glaring.

Due to your lack of understanding of it, because the word war is mentioned, to you that is what the whole hadeeth is about, thus anyone who quotes it must be at war with others, and that "being at war with others" must be so significant in their life for them to have quoted it. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way, and if you read beyond the first sentence, you'll get an idea of what the hadeeth might be about.

I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the hadeeth. I do see that it is largely about the relationship between Allah and his servant. Reading it out of context, I don't know if "the servant" is specifically Muhammad (this is what I suspect), or if it could apply to any servant of Allah (which would seem equally applicable to me even if it was originally intended as a reference to Muhammad). The problem is not with my ability to understand the passage, but with a difference in our hermeneutical approach to it. As the issue of being at war is NOT central to the passage, I see no need for including it and if choosing said hadeeth for my signature, would have begun with the second sentence. Thus, for me and my understanding, to use the first sentence in conjunction with the rest of the hadeeth is to say that this first sentence speaks to the person quoting it on par with the rest of the hadeeth. If that is the case, then it seems that the issue of being at war with those who show enmity to those devoted to Allah is just as significant to the poster as is the rest of the hadeeth. Now, you (pardon me if it was another and not you) say that in Islam one quotes the whole of the hadeeth. That is not my hermeneutic, but I can respect the pattern. So, then, I suggest that one has to take a look at the whole of the hadeeth, not just one portion of it, and ask oneself if the whole of the thing speaks for the poster or not. If so, post it. If not, then don't. But if one does post it, recognize that one has post a hadeeth in one's signature that speaks in a particular way with regard to war, and to ask the rest of us to ignore that just because one says something diametrically the opposite of that in one's post is asking too much.

There are other passages as well, where Allah mentions his anger with people who do certain acts, and immense pleasure with those who do certain other acts, in the same passage. Now if I quoted one of those, then to you, I guess the inference will be that I am an angry person? That's a rather strange way of reasoning.

No, but I would infer that you likewise probably have anger toward those particular acts. And if you were to write in a post that you didn't, I would question why the discreppancy and which point of view was truly authentically representative of you.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Second all debates get reduced to "us" vs "them" anyway and this isnt exclusive any muslim but everyone - christains and atheists included.

I agree. This is what happens. I disagree that just because it is what happens that it also needs to be this way and that we can't improve. "Us" vs "Them" is a symptom of the human condition. But it is a symptom of what is wrong with that condition, not, I don't believe, the way that God intends for us to be. "Us" vs "Them" has plunged humanity into all sorts of wars. Some of those wars are the type that get written about in history books. Even more wars are the type that take place between neighbors over the placement of backyard fences or who "we" are willing to let move into the neighborhood.

I live in a part of the country where a whole host of divisions between "Us" vs "Them" exist. People divide over poltics -- Republicans vs. Democrats. People divide over favorite sports teams -- Cubs vs. Cardinals. People divide over socio-economic status -- white-collar vs. blue-collar. And while that may be natural (and even fun at times -- at least with sports teams), the continued division into smaller and smaller groups in which everyone has to be like me reduces down to isolated groups of 1.

One of the "Us" vs. "Them" discussions that I grew up with centered on skin color. Nicole Mullen wrote a song about that which I think speaks well to the issue:

COLOR, by Nicole Mullen

Just because my skin is brown
It don't define who I am
I could be a porcupine
Or I could be a little lamb

Please don't try and judge me
Only by the colors you have seen
To love me is to know me
Whether red, yellow, black or green

(Chorus)
Color is skin deep
But true beauty lives on and on
Color is skin deep
But true beauty lives on and on

Her skin might be ivory
And he might be from Japan
But that don't make a better woman
That don't make a lesser man

Please don't try to judge 'em
Only by the colors you have seen
To love 'em is to know 'em
Whether red, yellow, white, or green

(Chorus)

(Bridge)
Color is the shape of the rainbow
Color is the tint of the sky
It's not a person, place or thing
It's only a description of you and I
Like the colors on the frame of a house
Will not tell you of the colors within
So why would I try to judge
A man by the shade of his skin?

(Chorus)

Those things that describe us, don't have to define us unless we choose for them to.