Yikes, Non Muslims have invaded the Boards.

**Woodrow** · 07-07-2010

Akhi wa Ukhti, Peace to our non-Muslim members,

The title is intended to be a humorous introduction to a serious matter.

For an Islamic forum we do have a high non-Muslim membership. To some of our Muslim members this comes as a shock and some even see it as a bad trend. To some of our non-Muslim members it may be a bit scary to be around all of us Muslims.

It is this diversity that makes LI what it is.

while most of the time it leads to interesting and constructive dialog, there are also times it leads to problems. Sometimes the problems appear to be insurmountable.But when we analyze our perceived problems they often only exist in our minds and our personal fears and dislikes.

Some of our Muslim members may see it as katowing to or pacifying non-Muslims. Some non-Muslims may see it as a means to belittle and insult non-Muslims. Neither is the intent of this forum.

One of the most noticed things about this forum is it is a reasonably safe place to discuss our differences and come to an understanding of how to live together in the solid, material world outside of the internet.

I am hoping this thread can/will become a dialog in which we can each express our expectations of what we think the forum should be. We want to know if there are areas in need of improvement? Do our Muslim members feel the non-Muslim members have too much freedom to discuss their religion ? Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly? Are we actually benefiting anybody and if so who is being benefited?

**PouringRain** · 07-07-2010

Originally Posted by Woodrow

I am hoping this thread can/will become a dialog in which we can each express our expectations of what we think the forum should be. We want to know if there are areas in need of improvement? Do our Muslim members feel the non-Muslim members have too much freedom to discuss their religion ? Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly? Are we actually benefiting anybody and if so who is being benefited?

Ack! Woodrow, I made such a long post replying to your thread and then the forum logged me out before I submitted and I lost it.

I suppose it was not meant to be. It is too late and I should be asleep already.

In a nutshell I said: 1) I think this forum is beneficial to both muslims and non-muslims because it allows non-muslims to come and learn/ discuss Islam in a non-threatening environment; 2) I think it benefits both muslims and non-muslims that this forum is open to non-muslims (for MANY reasons lost in my previosu post LOL); 3) as a non-muslim, I do not feel as though non-muslims are treated unfairly, nor that they are stifled or unable to speak openly. Non-muslims, along with muslims, are all guests on this forum and subject to the rules, as well as, are all able to openly express their feelings on things. 4) I do not feel as though non-muslims have too much freedom to discuss their religion. It is against the rules to promote other religions. For the most part, from my observations (and I may be wrong) but it seems as though non-muslims share their beliefs a) in defense/ explanation to misconceptions, b) to explain their own personal views, and c) for comparative purposes of differences and similarities.

I think that both non-muslims and muslims all benefit from the forum. It does not benefit Islam at all to have a forum where people are hostile, unwelcoming, not open to sharing or answering questions, etc.

What can be improved?

Well, I know I am not alone in my dislike of no longer being able to answer things in the advise area... but my intention is not to go into that. There has already been a thread on this. A second thing I always wish is that I could join the sister's section. I realize I am not a muslim, but as a female it is something that I like just to be around other females and read things that pertain to females, apart from and private from males. One of my best experiences with Islam is the times I shared with a muslimah who lived near me, and when we prayed together. But, I do accept that I am not a muslim, and so I am not asking to intrude upon the sister's section here and to go where I would not be welcomed.

(I don't even know what they talk about in there. LOL I may not even want to be there.

)

Okay, this is my post all nutshelled down to near nothing. (Long, I know!!!) Tomorrow when I wake up maybe more people will have posted so that I can just say "Yes, exactly!" and agree to all the things I lost in my previous post.

**جوري** · 07-07-2010

I personally prefer a homogeneous Islamic forum, where Muslims, potential Muslims and only friendly aliens dwell.. I don't know any Muslims in real life (yes sad but true) quite familiar with the non-Muslims, their agenda, their hatred, their desires, their questions,their hallelujah handouts everything about them I live them 24/7 and imbued them in case I miss in live interactions on the news, and I would like a safe haven where I can learn of Muslims across the globe, more about Islam, listen to lectures enjoy Ramadan with members and basically just feed the spiritual side of myself without having a bozo and a gadfly in here every other day with the same inane queries and equally silly pamphlets or worse obscene pornography which they pass out once they decide to rid themselves of the thin veneer that shrouds an equally thinner inner ..

**Pygoscelis** · 07-07-2010

Speaking as probably the most diametrically opposed person to muslim views on here, I think its important for people to experience all sides (and to try not to get all excited and defensive). At the end of the day we're all just people from different places and with different biases and ideologies, and screaming at each other on a message board isn't going to change anything - though discussion may illuminate what others out there actually do think.

I would like this to be less of a tribal oriented muslims vs non-muslims fight/contest/whatever and more of a civil discussion, even if we sometimes outright hate each others' views (that's no reason to hate each other). I have noticed this happen with some but certainly not the majority of muslims here. They seem to think they need to defend Islam from attack and take up the sword and attack anybody who questions it. By doing so they accomplish nothing. They only further entrench people into tribal divisions. Instead I would suggest they agree to disagree or explain why the non-muslim is "wrong" in their view or why what the non-muslim views as bad the muslim actually views as good (that happens a lot).

To my fellow non-muslims I suggest we do likewise. Do not participate in fights (sometimes labeled "debates" but they never are) and instead engage in conversation with our muslim board members. And if you get attacked personally, I think we non-muslims need to have the thicker skin and learn to ignore it - as we are the minority here and our views may enrage people. You will see the exact same thing on any other board - be it christian, atheist, democrat, republican, etc.

I also make a point of keeping out of all areas on this message board except for comparitive religion and world events. I think that is important. These sub boards are specifically calling out for a broad perspective. The other message sub boards are not, and we need to respect the muslims wish to have a place of fellowship amongst their bretheren. Just my view.

Myself, I came to this board originally following 9/11 and the resulting islamophobia in the US. It was and still is rampant, visceral, and blindly tribal and I still see this on many other message boards I go to. Believe it or not though I may be seen as the anti-muslim nasty person here, I'm the defender of muslims there. Skavau knows of where I speak and I've seen him doing the same (defending muslims). I came to see how valid the hate speech was. Some of the claims are true but just a clash of opposing values, and other claims these people have made are just outright fabrications.

Though I've disproved most of the myths that concerned me back then I've also learned (through here and many other places I have interacted with muslims online) other things about Islam and discovered it to very much be my opposite, which makes it and its followers even more intreaguing to me.

I don't find muslims dangerous or evil as the people on those boards I mentioned above do, but I do find them to be my polar opposite in many "values". That keeps me around. I love to see the rationale behind positions I do not (and maybe can not) hold.

**Woodrow** · 07-07-2010

Just speaking in terms of my own desires and what I see as an ideal forum, would be to see a better understanding of how to debate among all of us that fancy ourselves as debaters.

I would also like to see personal emotions left at the door and for us all to discuss on the basis of facts and not feelings. But, then again this is a religious forum and religion does touch all of us who adhere to a faith, we do have a strong emotional investment in our faith. So I really doubt emotionalism can be eliminated. but perhaps we can get to understand the emotional feelings of all members and take those into consideration when we read each other's posts.

**Muslimeen** · 07-07-2010

I feel it is a good place to discuss and teach Islam to the world. Especially after 9/11 some people have really gone all out to degrade Islam at all cost, and many ordinary people have accepted the lies told to them about Islam in the media. I don't have a problem with the questions posed by non-muslims as long as they remain dignified and don't resort to vulgarity and insults, I am more than happy to debate with them.
I must however stress that some questions asked may test the Imaan of a muslim, especially if he is not learned or has weak faith, but generally I don't think they are much of a threat to any muslim sound in his beliefs.

**glo** · 07-07-2010

Catchy title, Woodrow!

I don't have much time as I have to get ready for work - but I think this is a great topic and I am sure I will come back to it.

I agree that sometimes emotions get in the way of discussions - and that's how rational conversations can turn into hateful slanging matches.
Some of the best and most informative threads we have had were the ones which only allowed the simple and factual answering of questions, instead of debating.

One thing that bothers me (and it is an issue in many Internet forums, not just this one) is when people resort to supporting their own faith/beliefs/opinions by undermining or discrediting or defaming the faith/beliefs/opinions of others.
In my view that shouldn't be necessary.
All too often I find that people make statements or comments against non-Islamic religions, which - at closer scrutiny - are unfounded or exaggerated or simply don't represent that religion. The fact that people feel the need to do that saddens me. It's as if they think that by dirtying other religions, they will make Islam shine brighter.
There is no need! Islam is a beautiful religion. It should speak for itself.

Of course there are non-Muslims who take that same approach against Islam.

I find that their posts - and rightly so - are usually dealt with quickly by the mods.

Negative posts from Muslims against other religions seem to go unnoticed more often. (I put the 'seem' in italics, because I am aware that I may be biased here, and that this is only my personal perception)

Apart from that, LI has been my cyber home for the last 4 years. Although I take time out, this is where I feel welcome and comfortable. I visit other forums too, but this one is my favourite. That should speak for itself!

Thank you to all the mods for keeping the boat afloat! 195 1 - Yikes, Non Muslims have invaded the Boards.

195 1 - Yikes, Non Muslims have invaded the Boards.

**Ramadhan** · 07-07-2010

Originally Posted by glo

Of course there are non-Muslims who take that same approach against Islam.

I find that their posts - and rightly so - are usually dealt with quickly by the mods.

There are, however, non-muslims who keep trying to undermine Islam by asking a series of (certain) questions or remarks which, at first glance, seem "innocent" enough because the wordings and sentences are usually pretty cunning, but for those muslims members who have been on this board long enough (and have good memory) would quickly detect/know that such issues have been addressed conclusively in satisfying manner many times before, and often involving the participation of said non-muslim members.
The mods ALWAYS let these kind of posts fly.

Negative posts from Muslims against other religions seem to go unnoticed more often. (I put the 'seem' in italics, because I am aware that I may be biased here, and that this is only my personal perception)

Just in case you forgot, this is still ISLAMIC board.
In addition to show that Islam is the truth (which most of the threads/sections show), we also want to show non-muslims that their faiths are not the truth (as part of our dakwah), and therefore in certain sections and threads, we make posts which highlight the untruthfullness of their faiths, which you may find a little offensive.
I challenge you to find me a similar christian board where muslims are allowed to be critical of christian faith while refraining from making negative posts against Islam.
However, there maybe some non-denominational religious boards out there which you may find more comfortable than here.

**Muslim Woman** · 07-07-2010

Salaam/Peace

I don't visit comperative threads anymore , it's not that I don't like to talk to non-Muslims ; it's just because I don't have patience anymore to talk about differences of faiths .

I really like that many non-Muslims are here in the forum . InshaAllah the forum will be a good place always for both Muslims and non-Muslims to know about each other faith.

Thanks br Woodrow for the thread.

**Ummu Sufyaan** · 07-07-2010

I don't visit comperative threads anymore , it's not that I don't like to talk to non-Muslims ; it's just because I don't have patience anymore to talk about differences of faiths .

i agree. sometimes it just like going around in circles

**Danah** · 07-07-2010

Wa Alykom Asalam Uncle Woodrow, nice topic by the way

I think LI is the only forum that I stayed active on for around 3 years because I "somehow" found what I was looking for in the cyberspace. As for Non-muslims here, I live surrounded by Muslims here alhumdulilah but I like to know about other faiths and since I don't know any non-Muslims in the real life I find LI to be a good place to know people from different religious backgrounds and discuss their faiths. I might not be a regular poster in Comparative religions section here but I am a regular reader and I see it as one of the best sections here. So non-Muslims here (the sincere ones) are welcomed.

As for those who spread hate through their posts I think mods are doing their job perfectly with them, so we are fine inshaAllah. May Allah reward all mods here for their effort.

**Woodrow** · 07-07-2010

Again just my own opinion. But I feel that because of the openness of allowing other religions to express their views it makes the promoting of other faiths difficult if not impossible. I find that any non-Muslim trying to promote their views often get called to task not only by us Muslims, but also by many of our non-Muslim members.

While our non-Muslim population is predominantly Christian, I do not see any particular denomination being dominate. The outspoken Evangelical types often get more criticism from non-Muslims than from Muslims.I think it is good for all of us to see that most of our non-Muslim members speak as individuals and not as representatives of any faith.

**alcurad** · 07-07-2010

I'd view it as a good thing, forums need new blood to survive. part of what made this forum so exciting for me was the diversity of opinions, actually that was All that drew me

**Zafran** · 07-07-2010

salaam

Same here I think it can be a good thing but there are people out there which do come here for trouble.

peace

**glo** · 07-07-2010

Originally Posted by PouringRain

A second thing I always wish is that I could join the sister's section. I realize I am not a muslim, but as a female it is something that I like just to be around other females and read things that pertain to females, apart from and private from males. One of my best experiences with Islam is the times I shared with a muslimah who lived near me, and when we prayed together. But, I do accept that I am not a muslim, and so I am not asking to intrude upon the sister's section here and to go where I would not be welcomed.

(I don't even know what they talk about in there. LOL I may not even want to be there.

)

We did have a mixed female section, Pouring Rain, which was accessible to Muslim and non-Muslim women.
Unfortunately it was closed with the recent forum changes. You have only just missed it ...
But to be honest, it was never terrible well visited - mostly because there have never been more than one or two female non-Muslim members active in this forum at a time.

Originally Posted by naidamar

There are, however, non-muslims who keep trying to undermine Islam by asking a series of (certain) questions or remarks which, at first glance, seem "innocent" enough because the wordings and sentences are usually pretty cunning, but for those muslims members who have been on this board long enough (and have good memory) would quickly detect/know that such issues have been addressed conclusively in satisfying manner many times before, and often involving the participation of said non-muslim members.
The mods ALWAYS let these kind of posts fly.

How could anybody possibly make judgment of the intention of another person?

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Again just my own opinion. But I feel that because of the openness of allowing other religions to express their views it makes the promoting of other faiths difficult if not impossible. I find that any non-Muslim trying to promote their views often get called to task not only by us Muslims, but also by many of our non-Muslim members.

While our non-Muslim population is predominantly Christian, I do not see any particular denomination being dominate. The outspoken Evangelical types often get more criticism from non-Muslims than from Muslims.I think it is good for all of us to see that most of our non-Muslim members speak as individuals and not as representatives of any faith.

Those are very good points, Woodrow.

However - and I am sure I have asked for clarification on this in the past - I am not quite sure what exactly the forum rules consider to be 'promoting a religion other than Islam'.
What I mean is, at what point does explaining one's faith and answering questions about it stop being just that and starts being promoting it?

I guess another question to consider is whether it is deemed beneficial for (Muslim) members here to understand and learn more about other faiths, or whether that might actually be a hindrance to the purpose of this forum.

I guess that many people would consider it beneficial to understand other faiths/religions/worldviews better - either for the purpose of being able to live more peacefully and respectfully with those of other faiths; or for the purpose of being able to give better Da'wah to people of other faiths/religions/worldviews.

As Pouring Rain pointed out, sometimes non-Muslims feel it necessary to respond to false assertions which are made against their own group.
For example, sweeping and unreasonable statements such as 'Christians are evil and lie' or 'Atheists are immoral' just aren't helpful, and are most likely to cause a negative response.

I have to say that I have learned so much about Islam on this forum! When I speak to others in the 'real world' I realise just how much more knowledge I have gained.
It's a looong, looong time since I referred to Muhammad as 'the guy who went into a cave and came out with a new religion' ...

I mention that incident, because I know now that I was speaking with complete ignorance!
Thankfully, at the time I was neither shouted down nor ridiculed. Instead somebody (I forget who. Sorry - poor memory!) explained to me patiently and graciously what Islam really teaches.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have gained my knowledge of Islam from those who had the patience and kindness to explain it to me - even if I should ask the same question in different contexts or at different times; rather than from those who have been angry, suspicious and dismissive about my inquiries.

Thank you all who make this forum such a peaceful and helpful environment!

**marwen** · 07-07-2010

Funny Title ! and a good thread. Emm I have no much to add other than what was said by all the posters here :smile:. I have just few remarks :

1) Islam is a universal religion, our message need to reach all the non-muslims in the world. We need all the non-muslims to interact with us and even if they chose to not enter in islam, they will accept us as humans.

2) No need to hate each other. What is the reason for hate ? Yes we all (muslims and non-muslims) hate insults, aggression and wars, but Why should we hate someone who didn't offend us ? No need to hate others just for what they are

.

3) In discussion, when we have different opinions, that doesn't mean we are enemies

, people can have different ideas and different backgrounds, they are not clones. But we should keep in mind that we are all humans, all brothers.

4) We should keep the love and respect spirit for all the members here. Even for those who seem to be annoying and offensive for you. Love is the most powerful emotion that can change your entourage.

**glo** · 07-07-2010

^
That's wonderfully said, marwen!

**Asiyah3** · 07-07-2010

Even though I very much like the diversity of the forum, sometimes I feel the forum is quite overly surrounded by non-Muslims. Especially in certain threads while it should rather be Islamic and educational for us Muslims the views of non-Muslims or the debates there have a strong presence. Sometimes it's interesting, sometimes unpleasant.

However, this is really tiny and rare. Most of the time the discussion is enjoyable, nice and comfortable. Despite all differences and disagreements the majority are helpful and supporting with each other.

It's truly great to have all people here al-hamdulillah.

**cat eyes** · 07-07-2010

if non muslims could not join islamic forums how would they know and learn about islam ? if we feel uncomfortable well tough luck.

its our duty of each and every one of us to give the correct message correctly. no matter how much they argue with us, we should just bite our tongues and be careful how we come across

remember if any of us come across as arrogant, it will discourage other non muslims from registering on the forum..

ahkee woodrow i think that the mods should be moderating threads more often, i feel that when a fight breaks out, mods are very slow to close a thread or delete posts this is just what ive noticed.

it would be a perfect forum if every one just got along

**Insaanah** · 07-07-2010

Uncle Woodrow,

I feel that the basis, the foundation, of a good discussion with non-Muslims, is firstly for non-Muslims to be honest about their feelings about Islam (which the majority are), what they disagree with and why. Sure, what they say may cross limits (and may occasionally need to be dealt with), but I personally would appreciate a person more who said "I don't like xyz in Islam because..." rather than someone who isn't so clear with their words.

Also, if a non-Muslim says, "We believe in xyz with regards to God," if a Muslim repeats the self same words back to the non-Muslim (that "your religion's belief with regards to God is xyz, ours is pqr"), suddenly that statement becomes wrong or offensive. It may be that some non-Muslims here are uncomfortable about their own faith...the facts have to be either true or not, that is either what you believe, or you don't believe. The goalposts can't keep changing.

Personally I see nothing wrong if Muslims try to point out the fallacy of others beliefs using reasoning and logic. It's all very well saying, "We believe this" but we must also explain why we believe the other is wrong. Islam is not about saying, "I'm ok in my beliefs, you're ok in your beliefs, we're all happy, flower power, yo!". This is an Islamic forum. And we must explain our faith as well as pointing out why we believe the other is wrong.

Perhaps there may be occasions when it hurts the non-Muslims feelings, but what we believe is what we believe. Most of us here are direct and don't beat about the bush, yes we should be polite and use logic and wisdom when reasoning, but ultimately there will be times when inevitably or unknowingly feelings get hurt.

I don't post much in comparative religion because I don't get the time to construct a proper post/reply and then follow up on any replies, however I was ignorant of the Christian beliefs about God and have learnt about them on the forum from reading posts in this section.

As to areas of improvement, I feel that the moderation of the Discover Islam section has really jumped in leaps and bounds the past few days. Jazaakallah khayr for that. I would like to see the same thing apply to that section as does to Advice and Support. Although the Discover Islam section is moderated, in the past non-Muslims were answering queries by people interested in Islam, indirectly giving misleading information about Islam to OPs. In some instances others were debating and disagreeing with the correct answers given by Muslims. And some posts simply have no relevance to the matter at hand. This section should be for Muslims only to reply to, so that no wrong information gets given to potential Muslims, and that the thread doesn't deviate from its purpose. Even the replies from Muslims should still be strictly moderated, to make sure they are correct. As far as da'wah goes, and people discovering about Islam, it is perhaps THE single most important area of the forum, and that is why I feel the same (if not more) should apply as does to Advice and Support.

If I think of anything more, I'll add it.