Questions posted on Aug 18, 2009 on Richard Dawkins.net, still not answered by Richard Dawkins:
>> S1:
What is the real objective of the human life?
S2:
Who can guarantee future existence of the universe and the human life other than the creator of the universe?
S3:
Can you seriously and honestly believe in the non-guaranteed future?
S4:
Why should any one truly devote and commit himself to a non-guaranteed future?
S5:
Is it possible for any one that you know to create any functional unit of the universe, i.e., from atoms to galaxies and from viruses to human beings, without knowledge, planning and work?
S6:
The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims are the living testimony for the works of the prophets, Mosses, Jesus and Muhammad which was demonstrated by challenging and eliminating the mightiest empires of their times i.e., the empires of the Pharaohs, the Romans, the Byzantinians and the Persians; besides establishing belief in the eternal creator of the universe. What comparable works did the atheists do to prove the credibility of atheism? <<
In Matthew 25 Jesus tells a parable about the final judgment:As I read the passage, it isn't just Christians, but all who are judged. This also addresses your other question in this thread.
Matthew 25 would seem to imply that such a claim would not, in and of itself, be sufficient. For instance, from a Christian point of view, I would submit that Satan recognizes Jesus as God, but that isn't going to get him into heaven. I suggest that merely making the claim by mouthing a few words is insufficient without actually putting one's trust in Jesus. Further, to really give evidence that one has put his/her trust in Jesus to save would then also imply living by God's standards for one has knowledge that one's future is secure in him.
Problem isn't accepting things from our end, problem is what your god alleges and then what he then does. Your dogma comes out hypocritical at the end (not that it has ever ceased) but this is simply another aspect to add to the list!
In other words, you can't claim to love everyone, and then put little conditions on your love as we go along or else you're dam ned into the abyss, how about simply admitting from the get go that you simply don't love everyone but only those who seem to believe that you died eating their sins?
hell and loving everyone don't go together, you simply must take one out of the equation.. same principal should apply with monotheism and three gods, you can't have both, you must get rid of one concept for the other to have some semblance of truth or at least common sense!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I understand that question to mean 'Why should anybody subscribe to and live according to a theology/dogma/way of life, if there is no complete proof or assurance that the desired outcome with really happen?'
With regards to Islam it probably also refers to the concept that a Muslim never knows whether s/he has been good enough to be allowed entry into Jannah.
If that is what he meant, then he seems to be admitting that religion is more about comfort than truth. It would be nice if there was a rewarding afterlife, sure, especially if you have a hard time of this life, but believing it doesn't make it so. I would like to have a new ferari waiting for me when I go home tonight but no matter how much I wish it'll be there, I have no real reason to believe it will.
I meant no criticism of Islam. I have learned from posts in this forum that no Muslim would ever claim to be assured entry into Jannah - therefore Muslims follow Islam without ever being guaranteed paradise (which is what question S4 is referring to)
Am I wrong?
Do you disagree with that view?
As some others have said, you have been on this forum long enough to know this basic info about Islam.
And read again my answer in my previous post as well as others'.
Now, my question to you:
Are all christians guaranteed to enter paradise?
i just want to confirm again, because this is what you and your folks have been selling, but recent answers apparently waver from this position.
the simple idea of being a munafiq (which anybody can be) is the biggest fear of the muslims and the sins that could lead a person to hell.
To say you will go to heaven and thats certian is pure arrogance.
However the true muslims or believers will go to heaven (even if they are punished in hellfire before) - God decides who the true believers and followers of the prophet and the messege are - but nobody should be arrogant that its certian that he or she is going to heaven. Rather we should see one self as trying to get there and hoping for the mercy and grace of God will protect us in the next life from our sins and the hellfire.
peace
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
As some others have said, you have been on this forum long enough to know this basic info about Islam.
And read again my answer in my previous post as well as others'.
Now, my question to you:
Are all christians guaranteed to enter paradise?
i just want to confirm again, because this is what you and your folks have been selling, but recent answers apparently waver from this position.
If they are truly Christian, meaning belonging to Christ, then yes. But not all who go by that name are truly Christian. And ultimately the only one who can determine who is and who is not truly Christian is Christ himself.
I have been repeatedly told on these forums that not all who call themselves Muslims are truly followers of Islam. But that it is up for Allah to decide. Well, we have the same issue in Christianity.
If they are truly Christian, meaning belonging to Christ, then yes. But not all who go by that name are truly Christian. And ultimately the only one who can determine who is and who is not truly Christian is Christ himself.
So it seems that intentions and deeds also count towards whether a person is truly christian?
This is my understanding from your explanation above.
As some others have said, you have been on this forum long enough to know this basic info about Islam.
I like to think that I have a basic understanding. But that doesn't prevent me from also realising that my practising Muslim friends may have a firmer foundation and therefore asking them for confirmation of my own knowledge.
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Now, my question to you:
Are all christians guaranteed to enter paradise?
I agree with Grace Seeker's statement:
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If they are truly Christian, meaning belonging to Christ, then yes. But not all who go by that name are truly Christian. And ultimately the only one who can determine who is and who is not truly Christian is Christ himself.
I have been repeatedly told on these forums that not all who call themselves Muslims are truly followers of Islam. But that it is up for Allah to decide. Well, we have the same issue in Christianity.
Naidamar, yes, I believe that all Christians will enter paradise ... but we should not be so proud to assume that we know who does and doesn't qualify as a true Christian.
What people proclaim with their mouths might be quite different from what's in their hearts - and God alone knows our hearts and innermost thoughts and feelings.
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
So it seems that intentions and deeds also count towards whether a person is truly christian?
I most certainly think so!
I am sure we have mentioned and discussed this on many occasions before.
A true faith in and love for God should be reflected in our attitudes and behaviours.
Whilst none of us are perfect and all of us make mistakes and fall short of God's commandments, whilst we are in the painful habit of stumbling and failing and sinning - if we are open and willing to hear God's calling, to be guided by his spirit and to deny our own desires for the sake of God, then - whether suddenly or gradually - we should become more god-loving and people-loving people, and God's love and grace and mercy should work in us and through us.
I quote James again:
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Naidamar, I think it is more complicated than assuming that anybody who "claims that Jesus is God" will be assured salvation.
As Hugo says, it is important that we repent of our sins too.
I think there is also an expectation that our faith in and love for God is reflected in our attitudes and behaviour. ("As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:25-26)
Last edited by glo; 09-19-2010 at 05:38 PM.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Naidamar, yes, I believe that all Christians will enter paradise ...
So what you are saying is, God only loves Christians, for if he truly loved everyone, why would he throw those who have spent their life doing righteous deeds into an eternal abyss, while sparing those causing hatred, corruption, lechery and mischief upon the earth for merely being called Christians? If we understand you correctly, and we do since the above is a direct quote, it would mean one thing and one thing alone!
The christian god doesn't love everyone as you so like to proclaim- so I'd quite with that agenda, since drowning it with enough florid padding won't change the matters any!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Naidamar, yes, I believe that all Christians will enter paradise ... but we should not be so proud to assume that we know who does and doesn't qualify as a true Christian.
What people proclaim with their mouths might be quite different from what's in their hearts - and God alone knows our hearts and innermost thoughts and feelings.
Exactly the same with us, we believe all muslims will eventually enter heaven but we should not be so certain and proud otherwise we may lose our faith
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
So you are now 100% certain that you will go straight to heaven when you die?
The whole of existence is uncertain so whilst I am sure the Bible teaches that salvation only comes through Jesus on a day to day basis my faith shall I say wanders and doubts creep in and I think this quite normal. You may know the Al Ghazali, a famous and conservative Islamic scholar once said "the man who has never doubted has never believed either". My own view is that God in a way wants us to be on the edge of certainty and this is because in some paradoxical manner doubts keep us asking questions, keeps us in a state where we need to seek God continually. In life there is plenty to test out faith - we get ill, people die, things go badly wrong and so on but its a hope that all things work out for good in the end is something we can hang on to, sometimes though just by the fingertips.
When one in 100% certain your mind closes down and you stop thinking. It is easy to see how destructive this can be if we think about Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot or Mao Tse-Tung, Bin Laden or Anwar al-Awlaki or events like the inquisition. All these men think they have the truth and believe they are in some sense doing good but to me the worst of these is those who claim that they are doing God's will and work and therefore cannot be wrong with minds totally closed and their sense of humanity non existent - if Bin Laden or al-Awarki are Godly men then there is no hope for humanity.
When one in 100% certain your mind closes down and you stop thinking. It is easy to see how destructive this can be if we think about Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot or Mao Tse-Tung, Bin Laden or Anwar al-Awlaki or events like the inquisition. All these men think they have the truth and believe they are in some sense doing good but to me the worst of these is those who claim that they are doing God's will and work and therefore cannot be wrong with minds totally closed and their sense of humanity non existent - if Bin Laden or al-Awarki are Godly men then there is no hope for humanity.
The same could be said about Tony Blair, George Bush, the pope, John Heage, The pastor that wanted burn the quran Jones etc - the irony is that its these types of people end up having all the power and fame to preety much do what they want. Many poeple are willing to defend them and even worse die for them
Last edited by Zafran; 09-19-2010 at 09:03 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Vale Lily, perhpas if you read and quote the whole sentence I wrote, rather than just the first part, you'll get a better understanding of what I am trying to say:
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Naidamar, yes, I believe that all Christians will enter paradise ... but we should not be so proud to assume that we know who does and doesn't qualify as a true Christian.
What people proclaim with their mouths might be quite different from what's in their hearts - and God alone knows our hearts and innermost thoughts and feelings.
Brother aadil understood what I meant:
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Exactly the same with us, we believe all muslims will eventually enter heaven but we should not be so certain and proud otherwise we may lose our faith
Amen to that, aadil. Thank you for sharing.
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
The same could be said about Tony Blair, George Bush, the pope, John Heage, The pastor that wanted burn the quran Jones etc - the irony is that its these types of people end up having all the power and fame to preety much do what they want. Many poeple are willing to defend them and even worse die for them
Ah, so we agree that those who preach violence or do violence we must in no way defend them and in our own way 'fight' against the certainties they claim. However, I am not aware that the current Pope or the Qu'ran burning pastor are advocates of or have done any violence? Which John Heage are you talking about?
Ah, so we agree that those who preach violence or do violence we must in no way defend them and in our own way 'fight' against the certainties they claim. However, I am not aware that the current Pope or the Qu'ran burning pastor are advocates of or have done any violence? Which John Heage are you talking about?
I was more focusing on the below point
All these men think they have the truth and believe they are in some sense doing good but to me the worst of these is those who claim that they are doing God's will and work and therefore cannot be wrong with minds totally closed and their sense of humanity non existent - if Bin Laden or al-Awarki are Godly men then there is no hope for humanity
all the people I have named fit very well with your above decription. John Hagee by the way.
Last edited by Zafran; 09-19-2010 at 09:25 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
all the people I have named fit very well with your above decription. John Hagee by the way.
Well almost anyone according to you is like Bin Laden and unless you can point to examples I have never heard say the the current Pope claiming the equivalent of violent Jihad as is done by Al-Awarki who claims it to be divinely mandated in the Qu'ran? Who is this John Heage or Hagee as you don't seem to be consistent with the spelling?
But in general, do you agree that 100% certainty is not a good thing especially in religion
Well almost anyone according to you is like Bin Laden and unless you can point to examples I have never heard say the the current Pope claiming the equivalent of violent Jihad as is done by Al-Awarki who claims it to be divinely mandated in the Qu'ran? Who is this John Heage or Hagee as you don't seem to be consistent with the spelling?
But in general, do you agree that 100% certainty is not a good thing especially in religion
The Pope has said many crazy things in the past - Like the thing he said about the prophet Muhammad pbuh - and whats his issues with condoms? - Divinely mandated thanks to the bible?
Whats your problem with Anwar Al waki the guys got an Assassination contract on his head by the US - Is that violent enough for you - so has Bin Laden by the way.
John Hagee is crazy as well - google the joker - or youtube him you'll love it too - he seems to think hes divinely mandated as well, thanks to the bible. Hes preety famous in america. Its not just him many christians have that idea in america.
I'm sure you'll be able to find many more - They not exactly low key now are they.
Last edited by Zafran; 09-19-2010 at 10:30 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
So it seems that intentions and deeds also count towards whether a person is truly christian?
This is my understanding from your explanation above.
Certainly intentions -- meaning the direction of one's heart. Not all are capable of having deeds, but for those who are capable and don't follow through with them, it show a lack of intention and that the focus of one's heart was not truly directed toward Christ no matter what words one has said or rituals one has partcipated in.
Now, the above is my view. I think it is shared by many, probably most Christians. But it isn't shared by all, and some who are of different opinion on this issue than I you will meet on this board and find that they self-identify as Christian.
The same could be said about Tony Blair, George Bush, the pope, John Heage, The pastor that wanted burn the quran Jones etc - the irony is that its these types of people end up having all the power and fame to preety much do what they want. Many poeple are willing to defend them and even worse die for them
Yes, they all thought that they had the truth. This is one of the big problems with anyone saying that they alone have exclusive access to the truth. None of us ever thinks that we are wrong, for if we did think that we would quickly change our opinion to what we thought was right. My understanding is this "that now we see in a glass darkly", meaning that I do believe I see the truth, but my comprehension of the infinite God it is limited by my own finiteness. So, even if I do have the truth, I don't have all of it. There are some things I am willing to say are categorically true "God is good" and some things I am willing to say are categorically false "God is beholden to man." But there is a whole lot that falls inbetween, "All Christians and only Christians go to heaven." I don't think you can categorically prove that last statement from scripture. You can certainly find some substatiation for that argument, but I believe you can also find some valid argument counter to it as well. Thus, I leave these things in the hands of God. what I think becomes our responsibility as Christians is to seek truth and then speak the truth that we know. Confess and repent where we ourselves have lived contrary to that truth in our own lives. And when we see others living outside that truth to bear witness to the truth that we know once again.
To that end, I have said that Terry Jones was wrong. Bush and Blair and the pope and John Heage and Ricard Dawkins and any one else you care to mention are right on some things and wrong on others. Where I have seen this I have tried to speak truth to it. But I am well aware that what you think I should speak to and what I do speak to might differ just as the understanding of what is and isn't truth differs from one individual to the next.
Yes, they all thought that they had the truth. This is one of the big problems with anyone saying that they alone have exclusive access to the truth. None of us ever thinks that we are wrong, for if we did think that we would quickly change our opinion to what we thought was right. My understanding is this "that now we see in a glass darkly", meaning that I do believe I see the truth, but my comprehension of the infinite God it is limited by my own finiteness. So, even if I do have the truth, I don't have all of it. There are some things I am willing to say are categorically true "God is good" and some things I am willing to say are categorically false "God is beholden to man." But there is a whole lot that falls inbetween, "All Christians and only Christians go to heaven." I don't think you can categorically prove that last statement from scripture. You can certainly find some substatiation for that argument, but I believe you can also find some valid argument counter to it as well. Thus, I leave these things in the hands of God. what I think becomes our responsibility as Christians is to seek truth and then speak the truth that we know. Confess and repent where we ourselves have lived contrary to that truth in our own lives. And when we see others living outside that truth to bear witness to the truth that we know once again.
To that end, I have said that Terry Jones was wrong. Bush and Blair and the pope and John Heage and Ricard Dawkins and any one else you care to mention are right on some things and wrong on others. Where I have seen this I have tried to speak truth to it. But I am well aware that what you think I should speak to and what I do speak to might differ just as the understanding of what is and isn't truth differs from one individual to the next.
Everybody thinks they are on the truth or are doing right - I believe everybody is like that - it takes a lot of courage to go back and say I was wrong here or there
The people I mentioned were specifcally to show that people from christainty are as blinded as some muslims around the world are. Its not just a one way street. It was also to show that its the people that grab the headlines and the men in power that seem show what religions represent - ignoring the vast majority and clouding the real image of the religion.
Last edited by Zafran; 09-19-2010 at 10:55 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
The people I mentioned were specifcally to show that people from christainty are as blinded as some muslims around the world are. Its not just a one way street.
For sure. I'll not argue that point.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Who is this John Heage or Hagee as you don't seem to be consistent with the spelling?
John Hagee is founder of Christians United for Israel, a Christian Zionist group. He has said some pretty extreme things. And Zafran is right, there are a whole lot of Christians, especially in the USA, who buy everything he says without ever taking the time to question it. There is a predisposition with some that Israel is always right, just because it is Israel. I can't begin to tell you the number of my own parishioners who (mistakenly in my opinion, btw) conflate the modern state of Israel (which I find to be filled with mostly atheists of Jewish ethnicity) with the ancient state of Israel and thereby give to it God-ordained status regardless that a better biblical hermeneutic would never grant that view.
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