"Questions for Jehovah Witnesses"

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

Sorry, I am not explaining things very well. The demon angels have been in heaven until recently. Their expulsion out of heaven took place when God's kingdom came to power. Jesus gave us signs to look for so that we would know when the kingdom was near (Luke 21:31) and those prophecies are having fulfillment in these very times in which we live.

Now I am even more confused.

Known Demons occupying Heaven? God(swt) having no power over earth until recently? I don't even know if I dare ask about the relationship between Michael (Mikail) the archAngel and Jesus? That may confuse me furhter.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

I didn't say that. Grace Seeker did. Just a joke I think.

i was addressing him..

Why do you say that I "know" that Jehovah is not God's name? It is God's name.

Peace Hiroshi,

my bad, i misread your post in another thread, #108 in Man needs a Savior:

Well, the Bible says many times that this is God's real name. The rendering "Jehovah" is derived from the consonants of one word and the vowels of another so a mistake was involved. But the fact is that we cannot be sure today what the vowels were in any case since the Jews stopped pronouncing the word until it's true sound passed out of memory.

so, your opinion is that the name was arrived at by mistake?

it is common knowledge that the name Jehovah is derived by adding the vowels from adonai with the Tetragramaton.

Jehovah Look up Jehovah at Dictionary.com
1530, Tyndale's erroneous transliteration of Heb. Tetragramaton YHWH, using vowel points of Adhonai "my lord" (see Yahweh). Used for YHWH (the full name being too sacred for utterance) in four places in the Old Testament in the K.J.V. where the usual translation lord would have been inconvenient; taken as the principal and personal name of God. The vowel substitution was originally made by the Masoretes as a direction to substitute Adhonai for "the ineffable name." European students of Heb. took this literally, which yielded L. JeHoVa (first attested in writings of Galatinus, 1516). Jehovah's Witnesses "member of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" first attested 1933; the organization founded c.1879 by Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916); the name from Isa. xliii:10.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Jehovah

the name is a mistake, therefore it is a fallacy to make this statement:

Well, the Bible says many times that this is God's real name.

IN FACT, this name NEVER appears in ANY original version of the OT

quoting Encyclopædia Britannica:

JEHOVAH (Yahweh[1]), in the Bible, the God of Israel. "Jehovah" is a modern mispronunciation of the Hebrew name, resulting from combining the consonants of that name, Jhvh, with the vowels of the word ădōnāy, "Lord," which the Jews substituted for the proper name in reading the scriptures. In such cases of substitution the vowels of the word which is to be read are written in the Hebrew text with the consonants of the word which is not to be read. The consonants of the word to be substituted are ordinarily written in the margin; but inasmuch as "Adonay" was regularly read instead of the ineffable name Jhvh, it was deemed unnecessary to note the fact at every occurrence. When Christian scholars began to study the Old Testament in Hebrew, if they were ignorant of this general rule or regarded the substitution as a piece of Jewish superstition, reading what actually stood in the text, they would inevitably pronounce the name Jěhōvāh. It is an unprofitable inquiry who first made this blunder; probably many fell into it independently. The statement still commonly repeated that it originated with Petrus Galatinus (1518) is erroneous; "Jehova" occurs in manuscripts at least as early as the 14th century.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_E...annica/Jehovah

Muslims [Arabs much sooner, yes]have been calling Allah by His Name since the 7th Century, no Christian on the planet called Allah by the name Jehovah at that time.

so let me ask, when when the VERY FIRST time that the name Jehovah was applied to The One True God in the Bible?

Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

The first century Christians were not divided between clergy and laity. Everyone went preaching. And they carried the Bible's message wherever they went. JWs try to follow that example. Also we believe that the preaching work has become urgent and that lives are involved with Armageddon very close. Love for God and for our fellow man motivate us to carry on the work even under persecution and difficulties.

That is not very far from what we believe. We have no ordained clergy and see all Muslims as equal. We also believe the final days are upon us and all Muslims have a duty to save our fellow humans before it is too late.

While we believe Jesus(as) preached the true word of Allaah(swt) in the Injil given to him, we believe the Injil was lost and very little if any of the Bible retains the actual teachings of Jesus(as). Christianity vanished almost as fast as it came, probably as early as the appearance of Paul.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Oh, you know THE WORD I want to examine without me even mentioning it. ("THE" pun definitely intended.) But I don't think there is any point bothering. People from both of our divergent viewpoints have gone over it countless times with each other to no avail. So, I doubt that either of us will learn anything particularly convincing, informative, or even new enough to be interesting out of that discussion.

I know nothing about the different translations, but does the word start with a B and end with a N?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

Some faithful humans will be resurrected with new immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:53-55; Revelation 20:6). Others will have to wait 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). And some will be so wicked that they will never get immortal life but will have to die.

.

Do you believe that simply having to 'die' is a Just punishment for living a life of 'wicked'ness?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

Yes because Romans 6:23 (and many other Biblical statements) says: "The wages of sin is death."

since everyone dies at some point in their life, how is this punishment different for someone who does not live a wicked life?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

I know that this is what Muslims believe. It is just strange that that, rather than encourage people to examine the Bible, Islam directs people to avoid it like the plague. I am sure that most members of Islamic Board do not feel inclined to look up scriptures in the Bible when I cite them for reference.

We are discouraged from reading things that serve no purpose or may lead us astray. For many living in Islamic lands where they are not likely to come in contact with Christians there is no need to read the Bible so few do. However, even in those lands in universities that have Comparative religion classes the Bible is read. Here in the Western world nearly every Muslim has read at least portions of the Bible and many of us are reverts from Christianity and often are well read in Biblical Scripture.

I believe you will be surprised at how many of us on this forum have at least one version of the Bible in their homes.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

Peace Hiroshi,

my bad, i misread your post in another thread, #108 in Man needs a Savior:



so, your opinion is that the name was arrived at by mistake?

it is common knowledge that the name Jehovah is derived by adding the vowels from adonai with the Tetragramaton.



http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Jehovah

the name is a mistake, therefore it is a fallacy to make this statement:



IN FACT, this name NEVER appears in ANY original version of the OT

quoting Encyclopædia Britannica:



http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_E...annica/Jehovah

Muslims [Arabs much sooner, yes]have been calling Allah by His Name since the 7th Century, no Christian on the planet called Allah by the name Jehovah at that time.

so let me ask, when when the VERY FIRST time that the name Jehovah was applied to The One True God in the Bible?

Peace

CHAPTER THREE

WHO IS JEHOVAH?

Astonishing as it may sound, it is an admitted fact that prior to the sixteenth century, the word "Jehovah," was unheard of. Whenever the origin of this word appeared in its true Hebrew form in Jewish Scriptures (read from right to left as in Arabic) Yet, Huh, Wav, Huh; or Y.H.W.H. these four letters were preceded by a substitute word "Adonai," to warn the reader that the following word was not to be articulated. The Jews took meticulous care in repeating this exercise in their "Book of God" six thousand, eight hundred and twenty-three times - interpolating the words "Adonai" or "Elohim." They sincerely believed that this awesome name of God was never to be pronounced. This prohibition was no ordinary affair: it called for a penalty of death on one who dared to utter it, and this taboo has been more successful than all the "DO's" and "DON'T's" of the Ten Commandments put together.
If Jehovah is the name of God Almighty, and if the 27 Books of the New Testament were inspired by Him, then it is an anomaly of the highest order, that He (Jehovah) signally failed to have His Own Name recorded in "His Word" (N.T.) the Christian addition to the Jewish Bible. The Christians claim that they have in their possession over twenty-four thousand so-called "originals" of their Holy Writ in the Greek language, and yet not a single parchment has "Jehovah" written in it. Curiously this "name of God" (?) has been sacrilegiously replaced by the Greek words ky'ri.os and the.os', which mean 'Lord' and 'God.' Yet, miracle of miracles - Alleluya! - no devil or saint has been able to eliminate the word "ALLAH" from the so-called New Testament of the Christians.
NEW FANGLED DOCTRINES
A hundred years ago, all of a sudden, more than a hundred new cults and denominations of Christiandom mushroomed in the United States of America. The Seventh Day Adventists, the Christian Scientists, the Menonites, the Christiadelphins, The Jehovah's Witnesses and the like. The founder of the last named cult, a Judge Rutherford, about whom the orthodox Christians say that he was no "Judge." This Judge was a voracious book-worm and a prolific writer. He stumbled across the word "Jehovah" which tickled him immensely, and he made a religion out of it.
Judge Rutherford, followed by Charles T. Russell created a new "church," which in its system of organisation and administration is second to none in the world. There is very much we Muslims can learn from their enthusiasm and methodology. Read, "Thirty Years a Watchtower Slave" by Schelin. It is not their theology I am enamoured with but their modus operandi (the way they operate). Read, how this incorrigible sect came very close to conquering Germany before Hitler. Read, about their second come- back in West Germany. Think, why they are making a most concerted effort in Nigeria. Will the system or religion that prevails in Nigeria, be utlimately the norm of the rest of Africa! This giant is the hero of the majority of the African people south of the Sahara. Muslims must reflect.
VIRILE SECT
The "Jehovah's Witnesses," have made the most phenominal progress of all the religious sects of the past hundred years, on a percentage basis. The Bahaies are moving at a snails-pace in comparison, actually receding in ratio with the other Christian off-shoots. These "Witnesses" are the fittest in their fight against the other Christians as well as against the Muslims. Simply because they programme themselves five times a week in their "Kingdom Halls," and what they learn they implement during the week-ends. We Muslims are supposed to be "programmed" five times a day in our daily Salaat, but we have lost the true purpose of this Pillar of Islam. Our Salaat is for earning Sawaab (spiritual blessings) only.
They have made the word JEHOVAH famous. They knock at people's doors, asking the question - "What is His Name?" The orthodox Christian replies - "God." They say, "God is not a name, it is an object of worship. What's His Name?" "Father," says the orthodox as a second try. "Is your father God?" Of course not! So what is His Name? "JEHOVAH! is His Name," says the "Witness" to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. He has become a professor of this one word. He has made it into a religion.
THE "TETRAGRAMMATON"
Why not for a change ask him, a question or two. Ask him where he got the word Jehovah from? He will surely reply - "From the Holy Bible." What does it say? Does it spell out the word J-e-h-o-v-a-h? "No," he will reply. "There is a 'tetragrammaton' in the Bible from which the word Jehovah is derived." What is a tetragrammaton? No one seems to have heard this highly mystical term. In the University of Illinois in the U.S.A. I asked a gathering of students and lecturers whether any one had heard this jaw-breaker! Not one of them knew its meaning! But every Jehovah's Witness seems to know, even the commonest of them. They have really specialised - ours is a world of specialisation. They are Professors of the one word - Jehovah.
What then is a "tetragrammaton!" The Jehovah's Witness replies, "Y H W Hi!"
"No!" "What I want to know from you is, what does the word tetragrammaton mean?" You will find him most reluctant in explaining. Either he does not really know, or he is feeling embarrassed in replying. "Tetra," in Greek means FOUR, and "grammaton," means LETTERS. It simply means "a four letter word."
Can you read into Y H W H the word Jehovah? I cannot. "No!", says the Jehovah's Witness, "we ought to add vowels to these four consonents to produce the sound. Originally, both Hebrew and Arabic were written without the vowel signs The native of each language was able to read if even without those vowels. Not so the outsider, for whose benefit the vowels were invented.
THE "J" SICKNESS
Let us add the vowels as the "Witness" suggests. YHWH becomes YeHoWaH. Juggle as you like but you can never materialise Jehovah! Ask him, from which hat he drew his "J". He will tell you that "this is the 'popular' pronunciation from the 16th century." The exact sound of the four letters YHWH is known neither to the Jews nor to the Gentiles, yet he is ramming JEHOVAH down everyones throats. The European Christians have developed a fondness (sickness) for the letter "J" They add J's where there are no Jays. Look!
Yael he converts to Joel Yehuda to Juda Yeheshua to Joshua Yusuf to Joseph Yunus to Jonah Yesus to Jesus Yehowa to Jehovah There is no end to the Westerner's infatuation for the letter "J." Now in the busy streets of South Africa, he charges people who carelessly cross them for "jay-walking," but nobody charges him for converting Jewish (Yehudi) names into Gentile names.
The letters Y H W H occur in the Hebrew (Jewish) Scriptures 6 823 times, boasts the Jehovah's Witness, and it occurs in combination with the word "Elohim;" 156 times in the booklet called Genesis alone. This combination YHWH/ELOHIM has been consistently translated in the English Bible as "Lord God," "Lord God," Lord God," ad infinitum.
COMMON ORIGIN
What is YHWH; and what is ELOHIM? Since the lews did not articulate the word YHWH for centuries, and since even the Chief Rabbis would not allow the ineffable to be heard, they have forfeited the right to claim dogmatically how the word is to be sounded. We have to seek the aid of the Arab to revive Hebrew, a language which had once died out. In every linguistic difficulty recourse has to be made to Arabic, a sister language, which has remained alive and viable. Racially and linguistically, the Arabs and the Jews have a common origin, going back to Father Abraham.1
Note the startling resemblance between the languages, very often the same sounding words carry identical meaning in both.

HEBREW ARABIC ENGLISH Elah Ilah god Ikhud Ahud one Yaum Yaum day Shaloam Salaam peace Yahuwa Ya Huwa oh he

YHWH or Yehova or Yahuwa all mean the very same thing. "Ya" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic, meaning Oh! And "Huwa" or "Hu" means He, again in both Hebrew and Arabic. Together they mean Oh He! So instead of YHWH ELOHIM, we now have Oh He! ELOHIM.
1. For a closer affinity between Arabs and Jews read Genesis 16:12 and 25:18, and for a further elucidation, see "What the Bible says about Muhammed."

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so apparently 'oh he' is the secret/ancient name of god