I realize there are very few adherents of JW beliefs present as members and any answers would most likely be the personal opinions of just a few people. Most of us here have very little knowledge of JWs and do not understand how they differ from other groups that call themselves Christian. I do realize that JWs do differ very much from the other denominations to such a large degree that many who call themselves Christian do not consider JWs to be Christians.
So, the Qur'an leaves things out. Christians have known this for years, for instance it leaves out Jesus' biggest miracle, the resurrection.
or rather add things in that have become the downfall and a humerus anecdote for those that bother check it against common sense and what is written in the bible itself in various other places, and eventually disable you from being able to explain your religion to folks without them have to shrug with a hearty guffaw at the pathological logorrhea you attempt to make sense of any of it!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Unfortunately, "my house is your house" does not have the same impact as "jesus is our god".
But hey, that's only my opinion....
Don't play the fool; it doesn't become you. If you really can't understand the simple illustration and how it applies to the topic of translation, you are in such need for remedial education that there is no point in discussing the topic with you until you have obtained it.
This from a pastor?
What happened to the famous christians "love"?
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If you really can't understand the simple illustration and how it applies to the topic of translation, you are in such need for remedial education that there is no point in discussing the topic with you until you have obtained it.
I conclude that you go for personal because you failed to explain how god can inspire people to write books full of errors and contradictions, although god intends those books to explain who he is and as a guidance for mankind and eternal punishment wait for those who are confused by the books?
This from a pastor?
What happened to the famous christians "love"?
I conclude that you go for personal because you failed to explain how god can inspire people to write books full of errors and contradictions, although god intends those books to explain who he is and as a guidance for mankind and eternal punishment wait for those who are confused by the books?
You failed to listen. I wasn't even addressing that accusation. (Done that many times before, do I need to again?) I was addressing the problem of translation that you had asked about. I had asserted that there will never be a perfect translation. You seemed to hear this as some sort of confession that there is something therefore wrong with Christianity and the Bible if a perfect translation cannot be produced. That simply isn't true, and I gave you a simple illustration as to why not. That illustration applies to all translations, the Qur'an as much as the Bible. In my experience you are smart enough to understand that. For you to pretend otherwise, as you did, means that you have quit asking for edification and are just playing games and attempting to make smart-aleck type remarks.
It is in fact a compassionate thing to tell you that such behavior is unbecoming so that you can stop before you make yourself look more the fool than you already have.
You failed to listen. I wasn't even addressing that accusation. (Done that many times before, do I need to again?) I was addressing the problem of translation that you had asked about.
You did not address the problems of bible translations. In fact, you only attempted to make some ridiculous analogies which made light of the meanings of your own scriptures.
For example,
in NIV:
Revelation 1:11 "which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches ...""
KJV:
Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches ..."
and you make analogy of these translations differences as meaningless as "my house is your houses" vs "my house is your home"
And I countered that while "my house is your house" does not carry the same impact as a scripture verse where one translation asserts jesus is god while the other does not.
I mean, Are you not concerned that two different bible translations can be so different when it comes to the fundamentals/creed?
And here we are only comparing NIV and KJV. God knows how many bible versions out there today.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
It is in fact a compassionate thing to tell you that such behavior is unbecoming so that you can stop before you make yourself look more the fool than you already have.
LOL. I am sorry that I laughed at this, but your statement actually reminds me of Bush' compassionate conservatism or whatever he was/is.
yeah, we are compassionate at you, but we are going to bomb you anyway, and annihilate the whole you folks!
I mean, Are you not concerned that two different bible translations can be so different when it comes to the fundamentals/creed?
And here we are only comparing NIV and KJV. God knows how many bible versions out there today.
I am concerned. And I have spent years of research studying this in order to find the truth. I believe that I now have a clear picture of what the Bible says and teaches. And I can show this to others.
You however seem to show no interest at all in this matter beyond using it as ammunition to discredit the Bible.
I am concerned. And I have spent years of research studying this in order to find the truth. I believe that I now have a clear picture of what the Bible says and teaches. And I can show this to others.
So for you, the truth is NIV?
KJV is no longer the truth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
You however seem to show no interest at all in this matter beyond using it as ammunition to discredit the Bible.
I am interested in uncovering and showing the truth, that's all.
I am interested in uncovering and showing the truth, that's all.
That's good. So am I.
Acts 17:11 says: "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
Qur'an encourages the same thing. Surah 10:94 says: "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee:"
Both passages encourage us to check what we learn against the Bible. How can you do that unless you examine the Bible for yourself?
How interesting, because you however seem to show no interest at all in this matter beyond going to anti islam sites using it as ammunition to discredit Islam since you joined this board.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Surah 10:94 says: "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee:"
Oh, isn't this particular verse taken out of context popular among Islam haters? Did you even study the Quran and hadiths, hiroshi?
By the way, which anti Islam site do you go to pick and choose ayats and hadiths and come here thinking you can teach us muslims?
And you did not think at all that us muslims have memorized and understood the meanings of the quran verses from the time of Rasulullah SAW?
(contrast that to NT which were written by unknown authors hundred years after jesus left)
Here's the explanation of the verse:
the footnote to this ayah from The Meaning of the Qur'an by S.A Maududi, is:
"Though these words were addressed to the Holy Prophet, they were meant for those who expressed doubts about his Message. As regards the reference to the people of the Book, it is because they possessed the Knowledge of the Scriptures, whereas the common people of Arabia lacked this, and were, therefore, strangers to the voice of the Quran. It was also expected that their just and pious scholars would testify that its Message was the same as that of the Scriptures of the former Prophets (as many did)."
Translation by Muhsin Khan:
So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it)[] (94)
obviously we will not be asking the people of the book to confirm every matter of the quran; the books contradict each other far too much, Allah also says the truth was revealed to muhammad saws so we dont need the other scriptures anyway. the translator here added the commentary about the prophecy of muhammad saws in the previous scripture, thats what the context of the verse is.
ie IF you are in DOUBT (ie believe the quran is not from Allah, muhammad saws is not a true prophet) then go back to the previous scripture. obviously differences and smililarities between the quran and bible on laws etc doesnt mean muhammad saws is a false or true prophet. however, if the bible predicts the coming of muhammad saws he must be a true prophet...
(Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written of with them in the Tawrah and the Injil.)(7:157)
They are as certain of this as they are about who their children are, yet they hide it and distort it. They did not believe in it despite its clear evidence.
also it stands to reason this ayat applies to us in the 21st century with the benefit of history. we can check biblical and quranic records of past events, the more accurate is therefore from God. eg the bible gets it wrong saying the whole world was submersed during the flood of nuh, the quran doesnt say the whole world was covered (this was mentioned in one of zakir naiks talks) im sure there are countless examples.
Yes because Romans 6:23 (and many other Biblical statements) says: "The wages of sin is death."
again
since everyone will die at some point in their life, how is this punishment different for someone who was alot more/less sinful or not 'wicked' at all?
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
since everyone will die at some point in their life, how is this punishment different for someone who was alot more/less sinful or not 'wicked' at all?
I would like to expand upon that thought a step further. Why isn't that considered to be an incentive to seek only personal, materialistic, temporary pleasures on earth? Based on that concept it makes much more sense to live a live of abandonment and seek the guarantee of gaining worldly pleasures by any means possible. If you have no guarantee you will be one who wins eternal life, it makes more sense to seek that what you know you can attain through your own design. To me it makes no sense to create a human and give them logical reason to seek a life of debauchery, that is predestination as by that logic the better choice is to seek all the pleasures you know you can attain in the short time of your existence. It leads a person to seek the desire to end life in a mad cap fast paced grab at life with all the gusto possible and when the end comes for the person, they can in their last moment think,"Man that was one hell of a blast, glad I had the time for the ride"
There is no incentive or reason to do good. The concept of eternal life would be of value only to those with a very hedonistic attitude and an inflated concept of self worth. Now for fairness and justice it makes much more sense that we all would be created with an eternal part that does not die and we will always exist after being created. As a result our future will be determined on what we do, we all face an endless future and that future will be either one of joy or one of regret, based upon what we learn and do in this temporary classroom called life.
As a last thought this concept of dieth, ceasing to exist and then be recreated in a new form sounds very much like the Hindu belief of reincarnation. There is no continuity of a single life, it is death and reincarnation in it's simplest form.
As a last thought this concept of dieth, ceasing to exist and then be recreated in a new form sounds very much like the Hindu belief of reincarnation. There is no continuity of a single life, it is death and reincarnation in it's simplest form.
And again, I just ask those unfamiliar with JW teachings and who seem to mistakenly view them as just one among many different "Christian sects" to recognize that is yet one more illustration of how JWs do not fit the model of historic Christian teachings. And further, a point of view in which historic Christianity and Islam actually agree with each other and together disagree with JW interpretations of the Bible.
It doesn't matter what the catholic encyclopedia says, considering it hasn't gone down to the etymology and the root of the words as Dr. Deedat has above, they are not anymore astray than you are.. 'to be' isn't god's name the Arabic version suppose that God uses the imperfect qal this is also crap since qal means 'he said' not 'to be' so it isn't any wonder to me that they worship a man if they can't get to the meaning of any word, you can take men for gods, guidance for spirits and God knows what else..
all the best
In his introduction to his translation of the Bible, J. B. Rotheram says this on page 26:
"Yahweh is almost always regarded as the third person, singular, masculine, imperfect tense, from the root hawah, an old form of the root hayah. The one meaning of hawah is "become." So that the force of yahweh thus derived, as a verb, would be "He will become"".
God actually explains the meaning of his name in Exodus 3:14. Moses has just asked: "surely they [the sons of Israel] will say unto me-- What is his name? What shall I say unto them?" God then replies: "I Will Become whatsoever I please".
The Israelites were suffering under the tyranny of the Egyptians as their slaves. They seemed to have no helper. But God here promised that he would become everything that they needed for their deliverance. And then, in a mighty way, God did rescue them and proved true to both his promise and his name.
Do you realize that despite 2 "world wars" and what seems like countless other conflicts, that reality is there has actually been less war in the 20th and first decade of the 21st century than any other time in recorded history? There has also been less famine and pestilence. I can't speak to earthquakes comparing one century to another, but even with a couple of notable ones in the news this year, the 2010 seems to be an average year according to the USGS.
"The 20th century was the most murderous in recorded history. The total number of deaths caused by or associated with its wars has been estimated at 187m, the equivalent of more than 10% of the world's population in 1913. Taken as having begun in 1914, it was a century of almost unbroken war, with few and brief periods without organised armed conflict somewhere. It was dominated by world wars: that is to say, by wars between territorial states or alliances of states."
And a report from the Worldwatch Institute states: "Three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899."
since everyone will die at some point in their life, how is this punishment different for someone who was alot more/less sinful or not 'wicked' at all?
We all die because we all sin. But obviously some sin more wickedly than others. God purposes to help the not-so-bad sinners who genuinely try to do what is right along with others who may have lived their lives differently if that had been made aware of God's love. As a Christian I believe that the help that God has provided is the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, making it possible to remove sins completely. This in turn means that those who receive God's mercy can return to life in the resurrection.
We all die because we all sin. But obviously some sin more wickedly than others. God purposes to help the not-so-bad sinners who genuinely try to do what is right along with others who may have lived their lives differently if that had been made aware of God's love. As a Christian I believe that the help that God has provided is the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, making it possible to remove sins completely. This in turn means that those who receive God's mercy can return to life in the resurrection.
Who offered the sacrifice?
Who paid for the Sacrifice?
Who was the sacrifice made to?
Now I am getting more confused. a person is born lives his life dies, ceases to exist. Then later is rebuilt in a new body and basically is not the same person who died. This period of ceasing to exist removes it from ever being the awakening of a sleeping person, this rebuilding from a memory is the creation of a new person no matter how you look at it. This is not resurrection it is a new creation. You do not have a resurrection you have the building of a doppelganger who now has the same thoughts and memory of the person who died, it is not the same person. That period of removal from existence has made it impossible for the person to be resurrected. A new person has been built. You have no resurrection, you have a new creation. The thought of cessation of existence has removed all continuity and eliminated the concept of resurrection. There can be no resurrection, without the existence of an immortal soul.
I know you will say "God(swt) can do all things" which I agree with. But this statement can be carried to ridiculous ends and become nothing more then utter nonsense disguised as profound thought. For centuries philosophers have discussed arguments such as "Can God(swt) create an object too heavy for him to lift?" (if he can then he is not all powerful as his creation would be greater then he, if he can't he is not omnipotent as he can not do everything) Utter nonsense discussed by pseudo-intellectuals to sound as if they are part of the intelligensia Humanae.
This teaching of ceasing to exist and being rebuilt removes any reason for a person to obey God(swt) as the end result is that at some point they are going to cease to exist. They are not going to be resurrected. they have died and ceased to be. The new creation is not them, even it the new creation believes it is and has the same memories.
The sacrifice was made in order to satisfy God's own requirements of divine justice. Jesus' obedience to death also gave a perfect answer to Satan's taunting accusation that none of God's servants would choose to remain loyal to God when faced with trials.
Now I am getting more confused. a person is born lives his life dies, ceases to exist. Then later is rebuilt in a new body and basically is not the same person who died. This period of ceasing to exist removes it from ever being the awakening of a sleeping person, this rebuilding from a memory is the creation of a new person no matter how you look at it. This is not resurrection it is a new creation. You do not have a resurrection you have the building of a doppelganger who now has the same thoughts and memory of the person who died, it is not the same person. That period of removal from existence has made it impossible for the person to be resurrected. A new person has been built. You have no resurrection, you have a new creation. The thought of cessation of existence has removed all continuity and eliminated the concept of resurrection. There can be no resurrection, without the existence of an immortal soul.
Well, I have read a number of accounts in the Qur'an where unbelievers express doubt that God could ever restore the dead to life. But The assurance is then given that he can. And this is never on the basis of man having an immortal soul. The Qur'an nowhere speaks of an immortal soul.
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