I realize there are very few adherents of JW beliefs present as members and any answers would most likely be the personal opinions of just a few people. Most of us here have very little knowledge of JWs and do not understand how they differ from other groups that call themselves Christian. I do realize that JWs do differ very much from the other denominations to such a large degree that many who call themselves Christian do not consider JWs to be Christians.
7. Would you consider either Charles Taze Russell or Joseph Franklin Rutherford to be a prophet?
8. According to JW teachings, what was God's first creation?
9. JWs reject the creeds of historical Christian orthodoxy which describe God existing in Trinity as not biblical in origin. What then do JWs suggest is the supposed origin of this doctrine? To whom would it be traced back?
10. Can an impersonal force grieve, be blasphemed, lied to, insulted, or outraged?
I realize there are very few adherents of JW beliefs present as members and any answers would most likely be the personal opinions of just a few people. Most of us here have very little knowledge of JWs and do not understand how they differ from other groups that call themselves Christian. I do realize that JWs do differ very much from the other denominations to such a large degree that many who call themselves Christian do not consider JWs to be Christians.
In hopes of understanding, My first 5 questions?
1. What do you believe Angels to be?
2. Who is Jesus(as)?
3. Is the Bible the word of God(swt)?
4. Are there errors in the KJV?
5. Are Roman Catholics Christians?
Hi Woodrow. You are keeping an old man very busy here .
Angels are spirit beings that God has created. They have free will. Most have always remained faithful to God but some rebelled and joined Satan to become the demons.
Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1:15. So he is the first created being. He existed in heaven with God before coming to earth by being born through Mary. The Bible repeatedly calls Jesus (and some others) "Son of God".
The Bible is the word of God.
There are errors in the KJV.
And Roman Catholics are not Christians (but they would likely say the same about me).
7. Would you consider either Charles Taze Russell or Joseph Franklin Rutherford to be a prophet?
8. According to JW teachings, what was God's first creation?
9. JWs reject the creeds of historical Christian orthodoxy which describe God existing in Trinity as not biblical in origin. What then do JWs suggest is the supposed origin of this doctrine? To whom would it be traced back?
10. Can an impersonal force grieve, be blasphemed, lied to, insulted, or outraged?
Hi Grace Seeker. Here we are at last discussing Bible doctrines.
6. I believe that the NWT is the most accurate translation available today. If you want to point to an alleged "error" then we can examine it.
7. Russell and Rutherford were not prophets of God.
8. As I told Woodrow, the Bible testifies that Jesus was the first of God's creative works.
Proverbs 8:22 says: "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."
Revelation 3:14 says: "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."
And Colossians 1:15 says: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
9. There are trinities of gods in many ancient cultures. Hindus believed in Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva. Egyptians believed in Isis, Horus and Osiris. Babylonians even had trinities of demons.
The Greek philosopher Plato greatly admired the Egyptian religious system and went to great lengths to describe the three-in-one deity that they worshiped using the pseudo-science terminology of Greek philosophy. Then, in the early centuries of Christianity, Greek philosophy became widely accepted and very fashionable. And the early Christian theologians used the same ideas of "essences" and "substances" to describe the relationships of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Plato had used for the Egyptian deities. So I believe that their is a link between the trinities of the ancient civilizations and the trinity taught by the churches today.
10. The holy spirit is personified in the NT and spoken of as if it was reacting as a person. Since the spirit represents God, something like lying to the spirit is the same as lying to God (Acts 5:3-4). But this kind of figure of speech is common in the NT. Wisdom is also personified (Matthew 11:19) as is death (Romans 5:14; Revelation 6:8).
Hi Grace Seeker. Here we are at last discussing Bible doctrines.
6. I believe that the NWT is the most accurate translation available today. If you want to point to an alleged "error" then we can examine it.
Oh, you know THE WORD I want to examine without me even mentioning it. ("THE" pun definitely intended.) But I don't think there is any point bothering. People from both of our divergent viewpoints have gone over it countless times with each other to no avail. So, I doubt that either of us will learn anything particularly convincing, informative, or even new enough to be interesting out of that discussion.
BTW, I think you're putting the wrong interpretation to πρωτοτοκος (prototokos).
For instance when I say the chili is "hot", I could mean more than one thing by the term "hot". The same is true for πρωτοτοκος in Colossians 1:15. Notice how it is also used of Jesus in Colossian 1:18 as being the firstborn from the dead. Yet we know that in a chronological sense that Lazarus and many others were raised from the dead prior to Jesus experiencing that. So, I would argue that as it can't be meant as a chronological measurement in 1:18, that it likewise is not meant that way in 1:15. So, in what other sense might it be that Jesus is (present tense) the first from the dead? When you find the answer to that, I think you will find that it also applies equally in that same sense to 1:15. Hint: the answer is elsewhere in the same passage.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 09-27-2010 at 09:20 AM.
Hi Woodrow. You are keeping an old man very busy here .
Angels are spirit beings that God has created. They have free will. Most have always remained faithful to God but some rebelled and joined Satan to become the demons.
Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1:15. So he is the first created being. He existed in heaven with God before coming to earth by being born through Mary. The Bible repeatedly calls Jesus (and some others) "Son of God".
The Bible is the word of God.
There are errors in the KJV.
And Roman Catholics are not Christians (but they would likely say the same about me).
Thank You for you replies Hiroshi. I did ask for clarification of your beliefs and that is what you provided. We do differ considerably in these views, but I am not seeking a debate in this thread. At this moment my goal is simply the learning of where we do differ. Since it is obvious we will have differences, let us at least know where the differences are and not where we think the differences are.
Some more questions:
Jehovah Witnesses seem to be a recent religion coming as an off shoot of the Bible Tract Society of the late 1800s.
When do JWs believe Jehovah Witnesses Originated?
How strong is the obligation for JW members to bring in converts?
Do you believe Humans are created to have immortal life, even after the destruction of the physical body?
Hi Grace Seeker. Here we are at last discussing Bible doctrines.
6. I believe that the NWT is the most accurate translation available today. If you want to point to an alleged "error" then we can examine it.
7. Russell and Rutherford were not prophets of God.
8. As I told Woodrow, the Bible testifies that Jesus was the first of God's creative works.
Proverbs 8:22 says: "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."
Revelation 3:14 says: "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."
And Colossians 1:15 says: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
9. There are trinities of gods in many ancient cultures. Hindus believed in Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva. Egyptians believed in Isis, Horus and Osiris. Babylonians even had trinities of demons.
The Greek philosopher Plato greatly admired the Egyptian religious system and went to great lengths to describe the three-in-one deity that they worshiped using the pseudo-science terminology of Greek philosophy. Then, in the early centuries of Christianity, Greek philosophy became widely accepted and very fashionable. And the early Christian theologians used the same ideas of "essences" and "substances" to describe the relationships of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Plato had used for the Egyptian deities. So I believe that their is a link between the trinities of the ancient civilizations and the trinity taught by the churches today.
10. The holy spirit is personified in the NT and spoken of as if it was reacting as a person. Since the spirit represents God, something like lying to the spirit is the same as lying to God (Acts 5:3-4). But this kind of figure of speech is common in the NT. Wisdom is also personified (Matthew 11:19) as is death (Romans 5:14; Revelation 6:8).
Peace Hiroshi,
i found this particular remark fascinating:
The Greek philosopher Plato greatly admired the Egyptian religious system and went to great lengths to describe the three-in-one deity that they worshiped using the pseudo-science terminology of Greek philosophy. Then, in the early centuries of Christianity, Greek philosophy became widely accepted and very fashionable. And the early Christian theologians used the same ideas of "essences" and "substances" to describe the relationships of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Plato had used for the Egyptian deities. So I believe that their is a link between the trinities of the ancient civilizations and the trinity taught by the churches today.
wasn't there a "word" used by Plato and other early Greek Philosophers used to describe the "part/portion/essence of God" that deals within the creation?
do any of the NT writers appear to use this EXACT SAME "word" to describe a "part/portion/essence of God" which he believes is Jesus?
you ascribe the "early centuries of Christianity" as the time that Greek philosophy became widely accepted and very fashionable. perhaps you misspoke here, following the conquests by Alexander marked th beginning of the time that Greek philosophy became widely accepted and very fashionable. isn't there evidence that Philo [OF Alexandria!] corrupted Jewish teachings to include the VERY SAME "word" used by Pagan Philosophers?
i also see this:
Oh, you know THE WORD I want to examine without me even mentioning it. ("THE" pun definitely intended.) But I don't think there is any point bothering. People from both of our divergent viewpoints have gone over it countless times with each other to no avail. So, I doubt that either of us will learn anything particularly convincing, informative, or even new enough to be interesting out of that discussion.
why did you ask the question if you "doubt that either of us will learn anything particularly convincing, informative, or even new enough to be interesting out of that discussion"????
i also notice that you keep using the name Jehovah, even though you KNOW that it is NOT the name of God, seen here:
Proverbs 8:22 says: "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."
Revelation 3:14 says: "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."
does this not imply that the Jehovah that you worship isn't God after all?
if you truly served the One True God, wouldn't you KNOW His NAME?
peace
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
wasn't there a "word" used by Plato and other early Greek Philosophers used to describe the "part/portion/essence of God" that deals within the creation?
do any of the NT writers appear to use this EXACT SAME "word" to describe a "part/portion/essence of God" which he believes is Jesus?
"The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
Oh, you know THE WORD I want to examine without me even mentioning it. ("THE" pun definitely intended.) But I don't think there is any point bothering. People from both of our divergent viewpoints have gone over it countless times with each other to no avail. So, I doubt that either of us will learn anything particularly convincing, informative, or even new enough to be interesting out of that discussion.
The NWT has been heavily criticized (and chastised!) for it's rendering of John 1:1 "and the Word was a god." But it was not the first Bible translation to read this way. Around 1,700 years ago John's gospel was translated into Coptic and in that language it reads: "And a god was the word".
11 Do you believe he spoke in the cradle to defend his mother against the Jews who suspected her of committing adultery ?
12. Do Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus made birds of Clay and breath life into them as mentioned in the Quran and the Gospel of Thomas ?
I've got a problem there because John 2:11 says that the first miracle that Jesus performed was when he was an adult at a marriage feast in Cana of Galilee. So either these accounts of earlier miracles are wrong or John's gospel is wrong.
why did you ask the question if you "doubt that either of us will learn anything particularly convincing, informative, or even new enough to be interesting out of that discussion"????
I didn't say that. Grace Seeker did. Just a joke I think.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
i also notice that you keep using the name Jehovah, even though you KNOW that it is NOT the name of God, seen here:
does this not imply that the Jehovah that you worship isn't God after all?
if you truly served the One True God, wouldn't you KNOW His NAME?
peace
Why do you say that I "know" that Jehovah is not God's name? It is God's name.
I've got a problem there because John 2:11 says that the first miracle that Jesus performed was when he was an adult at a marriage feast in Cana of Galilee. So either these accounts of earlier miracles are wrong or John's gospel is wrong.
If memory serves me correct that miracle in the Bible was done at the request of his Mother. Does it not seem strange she would be asking him to perform a miracle if she had not seem him perform a miracle in the past?
I've got a problem there because John 2:11 says that the first miracle that Jesus performed was when he was an adult at a marriage feast in Cana of Galilee. So either these accounts of earlier miracles are wrong or John's gospel is wrong.
If memory serves me correct that miracle in the Bible was done at the request of his Mother. Does it not seem strange she would be asking him to perform a miracle if she had not seem him perform a miracle in the past?
If memory serves me correct that miracle in the Bible was done at the request of his Mother. Does it not seem strange she would be asking him to perform a miracle if she had not seem him perform a miracle in the past?
Prophets in ancient Israel did perform miracles. And Jesus told his disciples, probably Mary included, that they could expect to see great miracles (John 1:50-51). Mary had had the angel Gabiel appear to her and also she had given birth to Jesus although she was still a virgin. These things would have given her faith. So on this occasion, like any mother, she was hoping to see her son do marvellous things.
Sorry to make another old man work so hard. But a few more questions came to mind:
Is Jesus(as) superior to the Angels, in your opinion?
Why were Angels created?
Where do the angels reside?
What are demons and where do they reside?
Everything in heaven and earth, so angels included, will bow down to Jesus according to Philippians 2:10. So Jesus is superior to everyone except God (1 Corinthians 15:27). The angels and all other creation were made for God's glory and because of his love. But also Colossians 1:16 says that all things were created for Jesus. So God also considered the wishes of Jesus in creating the angels and all other things.
The angels reside in heaven where God is. And Satan and the demons also dwelt in heaven up until the coming of God's kingdom (Revelation 12:9-12). From that time on they are confined to the vicinity of the earth and are angry knowing that their time is short.
Jehovah Witnesses seem to be a recent religion coming as an off shoot of the Bible Tract Society of the late 1800s.
When do JWs believe Jehovah Witnesses Originated?
It is a long story. Briefly C. T. Russell in America was disturbed by his church teaching that (1) some humans go to burn in hell forever after death and (2) that God has predestined them to this fate so that they cannot escape it. This horrified him. He even rejected Christianity for a time but decided to search for the truth. But in the end he went back again to examine the Bible and what he found was that many doctrines of the various churches were wrong.
He and his interested associates began to study the Bible intensely and publish the things that they investigated in tracts, magazines and books. As well as this, Russell went on preaching tours around the world to try to reach everyone with the Bible's message.
And the organisation that was started by Russell became the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. And its members and those who supported them eventually came to be known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
How strong is the obligation for JW members to bring in converts?
Do you believe Humans are created to have immortal life, even after the destruction of the physical body?
The first century Christians were not divided between clergy and laity. Everyone went preaching. And they carried the Bible's message wherever they went. JWs try to follow that example. Also we believe that the preaching work has become urgent and that lives are involved with Armageddon very close. Love for God and for our fellow man motivate us to carry on the work even under persecution and difficulties.
Some faithful humans will be resurrected with new immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:53-55; Revelation 20:6). Others will have to wait 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). And some will be so wicked that they will never get immortal life but will have to die.
But between the time of our death and resurrection there is no consciousness (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
It is a long story. Briefly C. T. Russell in America was disturbed by his church teaching that (1) some humans go to burn in hell forever after death and (2) that God has predestined them to this fate so that they cannot escape it. This horrified him. He even rejected Christianity for a time but decided to search for the truth. But in the end he went back again to examine the Bible and what he found was that many doctrines of the various churches were wrong.
He and his interested associates began to study the Bible intensely and publish the things that they investigated in tracts, magazines and books. As well as this, Russell went on preaching tours around the world to try to reach everyone with the Bible's message.
And the organisation that was started by Russell became the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. And its members and those who supported them eventually came to be known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
Interesting, I have a bit of a problem with Russell being disturbed at the thought of an eternal Hell yet sees nothing horrifying about Angels created as perfect beings doing wrong, getting kicked out of eternal bliss and condemned to a very long but limited existence with knowledge it is going to end and they will be obliterated. erased, evaporated, zapped. Millions of years have passed with this thought and more years probably still remain. That must be a torment possibly even worse than the pains of hell as they had already tasted a moment of eternal bliss and now know they can not regain it. Now that is a cruel, sadistic punishment.
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