How Do Mulsims Resolve the Eyewitness Testimony of the Disciples?

**noselfwilling** · 02-05-2011

I know Muslims claim Jesus never went to the cross, but of the 45 sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death no one claims that Jesus didn't die the cross, and the bulk of these sources do mention his death on the cross (see Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus, The Historical Jesus, and The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas).

How can you come along six centuries later and say the complete opposite of what has been recorded historically? Normally historians focus on the primary sources closes to the timing of the events, so the Qu'ran is given no consideration because it has no evidence and we can't trust any spirit for that would not be prudent. Faith should be backed up by evidence. Test the spirits and "prove all things".

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4.1). If it does not line up with the word of God it is not to be trusted.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5.21).

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by Woodrow

For 3 centuries the early Christians also followed other books such as the Gospels of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas. But since these differed from the teachings of Paul and did not acknowledge Jesus(as) died on the cross they were cast out as being gnostic by the council of Nicea. You ever think of the possibility that the true gospels were cast out and the false ones kept? Keep in mind the Bible you have today came as a result of the choosing of books by the Popes between the year s 300 - 800. You are following the teachings of Catholicism, not the word of God(swt).

Christians never followed the Gospel of Thomas (not Thomas in the Bible), Gospel of Peter (that's not 1 and 2 Peter), nor the gospel of Barnabas (not the Barnabas in the Bible). Christians already had the cannon and the 66 books of the Bible determined before the end of the 1st century. The Gospel of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas differ from every book of the Bible. Remember, gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant just as the Qu'ran since it is too late to the ball game. Basically everything you said was wishful thinking and goes completely contrary to the evidence because you don't want to appreciate you are sinner in need of salvation, and only God can fulfill than through His only begotten Son by shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins and give eternal life. Only God can take upon the sins of the world, and a just punishment is needed for sin which Jesus in our place saves us from Hell whosoever is willing to believe on Him as He really is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

The point is that Basilides had written that Jesus did not die. Are not the Nag Hammadi manuscripts older than any surviving canonical gospel text?No, I have no doubt that he did not die, but the question remains for you, "Where does your salvation stand if he did not die on the cross?"

No they are not older. They are too late to be of consideration. They come from the 3rd and 4th centuries.

**aadil77** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Prophets are never exalted above all men that ever lived or eve will live as Jesus was, is, and always will be. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, created all things, and no man can come to the Father but by Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved than Jesus.

Jesus can't save anyone, its every man for himself. You will be bitterly dissapointed on the Day of Judgement when Jesus will testify to that.

If you want to be saved, I suggest you start by repenting for worshipping a mangod rather than the Al-Mighty Creator - God Himself.

Even the disciples surrendered to God not Jesus:

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Qur'an 3:52

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by aadil77

Exactly, They were not decieved, they knew about it, read the my post above.

The Qu'ran says the disciples were deceived in claiming they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. God wouldn't deceive the disciples but Satan would. But the disciples weren't deceived. They reported the truth they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. There is no evidence to the contrary. See my response above.

**aadil77** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

The Qu'ran says the disciples were deceived in claiming they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. God wouldn't deceive the disciples but Satan would. But the disciples weren't deceived. They reported the truth they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. There is no evidence to the contrary. See my response above.

No its doesn't - prove it, it says the Jews thought they killed him but they didn't:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And ...

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by aadil77

Jesus can't save anyone, its every man for himself. You will be bitterly dissapointed on the Day of Judgement when Jesus will testify to that.

If you want to be saved, I suggest you start by repenting for worshipping a mangod rather than the Al-Mighty Creator - God Himself.

Even the disciples surrendered to God not Jesus:

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Qur'an 3:52

Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity. Think in terms how a loving God would not leave us in the dark and blind without evidence, for all the evidence we have are in the primary sources, none of which contradict Jesus' death on the cross. So what have you got but the word of a man in a cave all by himself, alone, jealous, despising Christians and the Jews, so he makes up some lies without support or basis. Do you really want to live your life at that attitude and deceit?

I am already saved which can never be lost: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You can't work for your salvation. I died on the cross with Christ. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). No mere man alone could do this. Only Jesus because Jesus is God.

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by aadil77

No its doesn't - prove it, it says the Jews thought they killed him but they didn't:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And ...

The disciples continue to teach the life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and deity of Jesus so the disciples never stopped believing they had Seen Jesus alive form the dead in various group settings even to their martyrdom for this testimony.

Muhammad six centuries later says they were deceived by God, but God would not deceive them. So you are speaking of Satan. But the disciples were not deceived, since group hallucinations are impossible.

**جوري** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity.

How we respond to the message of Jesus indeed determines how we spend eternity.
Jesus said, to worship God and not idols--which is in fact what Christians do bow before idols and have multiple gods.. .. Jesus was also sent to the lost sheep of Israel (only)

<< Matthew 15:24 >>

parallel7 1 - How Do Mulsims Resolve the Eyewitness Testimony of the Disciples?

New International Version (©1984)
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." New Living Translation (©2007)
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
English Standard Version (©2001)
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Anything else is a contradiction.. any contradiction renders the word of God untrustworthy.. any lack of trust means the religion is false and not from God..
Now, I am not sure how a grown man or even a child can believe that God was a suckling pooping little boy from west Asia who self-immolated after spending a night in prayer to himself at Gethsemane .. perhaps there is something satisfying in that to the christian mind?.. I don't know.. it doesn't hold much water for anyone else..
and believe me I'd not waste my monumental efforts here.. how about you aim it at atheists? see how that fares with them?

**Woodrow** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity. Think in terms how a loving God would not leave us in the dark and blind without evidence, for all the evidence we have are in the primary sources, none of which contradict Jesus' death on the cross. So what have you got but the word of a man in a cave all by himself, alone, jealous, despising Christians and the Jews, so he makes up some lies without support or basis. Do you really want to live your life at that attitude and deceit?

I am already saved which can never be lost: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You can't work for your salvation. I died on the cross with Christ. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). No mere man alone could do this. Only Jesus because Jesus is God.

Until you accept the truth that Jesus(as) did not die, your salvation is very much at risk. Yes, you will enjoy a pleasant stay on earth as all good intentions are rewarded. May you learn the truth before it is too late and may your love for Jesus(as) guide you for learning what a great Prophet he is. But remember until you stop falsely worshiping Jesus(as) as a god, he will bear witness against you for worshiping another besides God(swt) Learn to love Jesus(as) the Prophet and give up your idolatry of a myth created by his enemies..

**aadil77** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity. Think in terms how a loving God would not leave us in the dark and blind without evidence, for all the evidence we have are in the primary sources, none of which contradict Jesus' death on the cross.

You have no evidence, just a book corrupted by greedy men, full of contradictions and mistakes

So what have you got but the word of a man in a cave all by himself, alone, jealous, despising Christians and the Jews, so he makes up some lies without support or basis. Do you really want to live your life at that attitude and deceit?

Jealous? LOL prophet Muhammad and prophet Jesus are brothers in faith, they're both going to heaven, they have nothing to be jealous of.

Do you really want to live your life worshipping a mangod? He couldn't even save himself from the cross so how will he save you?

I am already saved which can never be lost: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You can't work for your salvation. I died on the cross with Christ. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). No mere man alone could do this. Only Jesus because Jesus is God.

Wow, so humble of you. So now that you are saved you can do whatever you want like just the rest of all christians? You can fornicate, steal, rape, murder because you are already saved, yes? It makes so much sense, so much justice in christianity

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

am not sure how a grown man or even a child can believe that God was a suckling pooping little boy from west Asia who self-immolated after spending a night in prayer to himself at Gethsemane .. perhaps there is something satisfying in that to the christian mind?.. I don't know.. it doesn't hold much water for anyone else..
and believe me I'd not waste my monumental efforts here.. how about you aim it at atheists? see how that fares with them?

For Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind to atone for sins on the cross, He would need to be just like one of us.

**جوري** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

For Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind to atone for sins on the cross, He would need to be just like one of us.

Those are empty words .. like when the Hindus contend when Ganesh's head was cut off the only other head his body could be replaced with was that of an elephant. fairy tales aren't logical and if not logical then there is no reason to bet ones eternity on it.. go convince the Jews your love so much of that self-immolating mangod see if you don't elicit a hearty guffaw.. at least Muslims don't call a messenger of God the son of a harlot!

p.s just out of amusement.. why are sacrifices so important? is god hungry, is he some sort of harvest god that needs offerings from the blood of virgins?

all the best

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Until you accept the truth that Jesus(as) did not die, your salvation is very much at risk. Yes, you will enjoy a pleasant stay on earth as all good intentions are rewarded. May you learn the truth before it is too late and may your love for Jesus(as) guide you for learning what a great Prophet he is. But remember until you stop falsely worshiping Jesus(as) as a god, he will bear witness against you for worshiping another besides God(swt) Learn to love Jesus(as) the Prophet and give up your idolatry of a myth created by his enemies..

Since all the evidence we have in Scripture is that Jesus did die on the cross, then we know it is true. Nothing exists to contrary. No naturalistic explanation can explain it away. Our sins were put upon Jesus, for only God can take the sins of the world upon Himself.

May God give you a conscience to realize you are a sinner in need of salvation, that sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, and the only way to atone for sins is if God in our stead pays that price on the cross, shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins. Salvation is not by works of pillars of Isalm, but it is a free gift of God whosoeover is willing to receive it as Abel did, giving an offering of the lamb which typifies Jesus; whereas Abel, jealous like Muhammad, killed Abel because God did not want an offering of his works like the pillars of Islam. God is infinitely greater than us so no works from us could satisfy His heart to receive initial salvation. Let go of your idols of Islam, but receive the One True God who loved you so much He entered His creation to save you from yourself.

Unless you stop calling the disciples liars, that they were deceived by God, how could you ever come to Christ to be saved by grace through faith and escape Hell?

**Woodrow** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Christians never followed the Gospel of Thomas (not Thomas in the Bible), Gospel of Peter (that's not 1 and 2 Peter), nor the gospel of Barnabas (not the Barnabas in the Bible). Christians already had the cannon and the 66 books of the Bible determined before the end of the 1st century. The Gospel of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas differ from every book of the Bible. Remember, gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant just as the Qu'ran since it is too late to the ball game. Basically everything you said was wishful thinking and goes completely contrary to the evidence because you don't want to appreciate you are sinner in need of salvation, and only God can fulfill than through His only begotten Son by shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins and give eternal life. Only God can take upon the sins of the world, and a just punishment is needed for sin which Jesus in our place saves us from Hell whosoever is willing to believe on Him as He really is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Of course the Christians of today do not follow the gospels of Thomas, Peter or Barnabas. Christianity had already ceased to follow what Jesus(as) taught long before they were written. Christianity vanished from this earth the moment the disciples scattered. Possibly the closest remnant of Christianity are the Coptic of Egypt. They seem to follow the Gospel of Mark in what may actually be the original Aramaic. But sadly even they finally succumbed to pressure from Greece and Rome by adding the Epistles and books of Paul to their scriptures.

At least you have been given the chance to explore Islam and now have some idea of what it is, the decision to escape from hellfire is now your own personal choice. You have been shown the door to the true path, that is all we can do for you.

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by aadil77

You have no evidence, just a book corrupted by greedy men, full of contradictions and mistakes Jealous? LOL prophet Muhammad and prophet Jesus are brothers in faith, they're both going to heaven, they have nothing to be jealous of. Do you really want to live your life worshipping a mangod? He couldn't even save himself from the cross so how will he save you? Wow, so humble of you. So now that you are saved you can do whatever you want like just the rest of all christians? You can fornicate, steal, rape, murder because you are already saved, yes? It makes so much sense, so much justice in christianity

Since you can't show any greed in the disciples as they died for their testimony, contradictions or mistakes, what have you got?Why take after Satan accusing the saints day and night (Rev. 12.10)? Why would Jesus being jealous other than for your love? God is a jealous God. Muhammad is jealous in a different way because like Cain, God rejecting his offering of works. The Bible says, no man shall be saved by works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is a free gift of God to be freely accepted or rejected. I worship the Father through the Son by the Spirit since all 3 Persons of the Godhead are co-equal and co-inherent. No man on earth has ever been able to keep the perfect will of the Father except Jesus because Jesus is God the Son.

Do you really want to be so selfish as to remain separated from God by refusing what Jesus did for you on the cross? He died for you and you reject not only His atonement, but you make up six centuries later He didn't even go to the cross without any evidence to support your claim. God would never ask you to believe in something without evidence, but Satan would.

Jesus said He could have saved Himself from the cross, but He was unwilling to, since He knew His work would save man from his sins through His precious blood. Now that I am saved and have eternal life which can never be lost, if I decide to be a carnal Christian there are consequences. I would not only be raptured at the first rapture "befor the throne" (Rev. 7.9), but also I would not return with Christ to reign over the nations during the 1000 years (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20.4). 1000 years is a long time to lose this reward before entering the New City in the New Earth. If someone calls themselves a Christian yet murders, rapes and pillages, then clearly they were not born-again.

**noselfwilling** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

Those are empty words .. like when the Hindus contend when Ganesh's head was cut off the only other head his body could be replaced with was that of an elephant. fairy tales aren't logical and if not logical then there is no reason to bet ones eternity on it.. go convince the Jews your love so much of that self-immolating mangod see if you don't elicit a hearty guffaw.. at least Muslims don't call a messenger of God the son of a harlot!

p.s just out of amusement.. why are sacrifices so important? is god hungry, is he some sort of harvest god that needs offerings from the blood of virgins?

I agree there is no evidence for that claim by Hindus. It's just a fairy tale like the fairy tale Jesus did not die on the cross so you can exalt in self-works to think you can save yourself. That's illogical to believe that six centuries later without any evidence.

You claim to accept the Bible yet you don't understand the purpose of the sacrifices in ancient Israel under the old covenant that foretold of the Messiah who would become the once-for-all sacrifice so sacricies would end. It was a temporary measure back then under the law to atone for sins. No man could keep the law, thus revealing to us we need a Savior.

Your god is not loving. He is too selfish or unable to enter creation to atone for sins. Your god can't do what God of the Bible did.

Realize you are a sinner, sin leads to death and the second deaht which is Hell, so unless God takes upon Himself in a very visible way, then you will be full of doubt.

**جوري** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

I agree there is no evidence for that claim by Hindus. It's just a fairy tale like the fairy tale Jesus did not die on the cross so you can exalt in self-works to think you can save yourself. That's illogical to believe that six centuries later without any evidence.

You can't prove the dying mangod nonsense anymore than ganesh's head nonsense.. further did you not read bro. Yusuf's post? I recommend you some Bart eherman lectures-- you don't even know on what day he was allegedly crucified let alone that it happened!

You claim to accept the Bible yet you don't understand the purpose of the sacrifices in ancient Israel under the old covenant that foretold of the Messiah who would become the once-for-all sacrifice so sacricies would end. It was a temporary measure back then under the law to atone for sins. No man could keep the law, thus revealing to us we need a Savior.

I don't accept the bible who said I do? show me where I have made such a claim.
The above doesn't explain why god needs sacrifices.. I need a logical reason for it not some biblical nonsense. Your bible also has god fighting with angels or prophets or whomever and losing.. although it is certainly not as bad as self-immolating after a night of self-prayer.. If god couldn't save himself, why would he save you? silly rabbit tricks are for david copperfield!

Your god is not loving. He is too selfish or unable to enter creation to atone for sins. Your god can't do what God of the Bible did.

How is my god not loving? further how can your loving god create hell if he were as loving as you allege?

Realize you are a sinner, sin leads to death and the second deaht which is Hell, so unless God takes upon Himself in a very visible way, then you will be full of doubt.

You're too funny.. why don't you strike a tent and sell some snake oil I think it might buy you some credibility!

all the best

**Woodrow** · 02-06-2011

Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Unless you stop calling the disciples liars, that they were deceived by God, how could you ever come to Christ to be saved by grace through faith and escape Hell?

It took me 65 years to escape from the lies of Christianity and by the Blessings of Allaah(swt) discover Islam.

The day you wake up and discover you are living a man made religion that lowered Allaah(swt) to the level of humanity, you will see the misguidance brought about by Christianity. Not all christians need to be lost many Christians have awoken and found the truth of Islam even after 65 years of trying to bring Muslims to Christ(as). At least you are approaching the right path even though you have yet to discover Allaah(swt) is inviting you to give up your sinful teachings and return home to Islam and be given the gift of Allaah(swt)'s infinite mercy and forgiveness. You can not earn his forgiveness, no sacrifice can ever gain it for you. but Allaah(swt) gives it freely and with out conditions to those who repent of the evil blasphemy of worshiping a false god in His name.

**جوري** · 02-06-2011

I am not sure why we all fall into the trap of replying back to these fundies. They all come bearing the same agenda and none of them can articulate their message to save their dear life-- their very article of salvation is nothing but a convoluted conundrum. .. honestly it is such a waste of webspace which we should spend on more serious issues.. like the uprising in the middle east .. it is alot more relevant than these medieval bible-thumpers!