for christians : a question about salvation.

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

This, to me, probably sums up the faith/deeds issue the best:

Paul is not opposed to "good works" or "charitable actions"; he sees them as necessary consequences (although not the foundation) of authentic Christian living (see Gal 5–6; Rom 12–15).
Conversely, James is not opposed to faith; he presupposes it, and then stresses that authentic faith must be put into action (James 2:14-26).


How do you, as a Muslim, feels about those statements? Can you relate to them or even agree with them?

Glo, I can agree with those statements, but for a Muslim I have some prescribed "good works" such as salah, sawm, zakat and hajj that are required, not optional, for me to fulfill. Of course, without faith those works are in vain, but for that matter who without faith would fulfill these duties? Hence, the Quran has many promises of Gardens of Paradise for those who believe and do good deeds as both are required. Beyond what is required there are optional good deeds. There is a hadith that shows that Allah's (swt) math regarding deeds is exceedingly generous, merciful and gracious:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet narrating about his Lord said, "Allah ordered that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed how. If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (intend 1 deed > do 0 deed = 1 reward or 1>0=1); and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him with Him from ten to seven hundred times to many more times (1>1=10 to 700): and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed with Him (-1>0=1), and if he intended to do a bad deed and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (-1>-1=-1)." (My allegorical math in parenthesis)

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Because one statement abrogates another does not mean they contradict each other. It often times means the newer one completes the first as it does in this case.

i have some trouble agreeing to the above. while one may call this completion (and i suppose that given one's perspective, this is perfectly alright), i doubt that it can be said that the statements are not contradictory. that is, they cannot be held at the same time hence why the abrogation. so while i don't necessarily disagree with the term that you have chosen to use, i do think that to deny that the two statements are in opposition to one another is to commit an error.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

The Jesus story and sacrifice is made incoherent by the concept of the trinity.

The claim that Jeus is God's only begotten son and stood up for Man and convinced God through his sacrifice that man should be forgiven for his sins, is a claim that I have issues with, but it is at least coherent.

But if Jesus IS God, then the claim is that God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind (about man's salvation), and not only do I take issue with the claim, but it is completely incoherent.

Pygo, I agree with you that to say "God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind" is incoherent. That's why it is not what is actually taught by Christianity. Those Christians who speak thusly are themselves confused with regard to the great doctrines of the Church regarding salvation. Since you are a reader, I bid you to read two helpful books on this subject:

The Atonement Debate: Papers from the London symposium on the theology of the atonement, contributions by Steve Chalke, Chris Wright, I. Howard Marshal, and Joel Green (Derek Tidball, Daivdi Hilborn, and Justin Thacker, general editors).

Salvation and the Cross, by David A Brondos

Over the course of time, Christians have actually expressed our understanding of the mechanism of salvation in a variety of different ways. What you wrote above comes most closely to being expressed by those who would hold to the Penal Substitution theory generally creditted to Anselm. And while that is the dominant view today, especially among Protestants, for a 1000 years before Anselm other views were dominant and many of those are still expressed today. The thing a non-Christian needs to understand when reading these view, is that they are not (or at least should not be seen) as in competition with one another. One is not right, thereby declaring all others wrong. They at best help to inform our thinking and understanding of what it is that scripture is saying. But scripture, not these writings of theologians, is the source of truth. The job of the theologian is to help clarify that which might remain unclear in the reader's mind after reading the scripture. If he doesn't do that, then find a theologian that does. So, if the penal substitution theory doesn't make clear what it is that you read in scripture as to how God works, then put Anselm and Luther down and instead pick up a real classic like Gregory Nyssa or a modern writer like N.T. Wright.

format_quote Originally Posted by Danah

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

Does a follower of Islam have to be perfect in his/her behavior in order to be received into paradise by Allah? My understanding is that no one is perfect, so if there is going to be anyone admitted to heaven, God has to somehow make room for people who have sinned.

The Christian view is to ask where is your heart directed? If it is toward God, then you are going to seek to live in accordance with his will. If you sin and realize that you have sinned, you will first confess it, second repent of it, and third cease doing it. Sometimes this is not enough. Not because the process is flawed, but because we are so flawed that we don't even realize that some of the things we are doing are in fact sins and that we need to stop doing them (or start doing other things). Christians believe that one of the functions of the Holy Spirit (and also of God's Word) is to teach us the truth and ultimately convict us with regard to sin and righteousness. Then, once again, the individual would turn from his/her sins and seek to live a life of righteousness in conformity to God's will.

No one who claims to be a Christian, and truly is one, will knowingly seek to live outside of God's will. Thus, there cannot be a person who is a mature Christian who fits your above description of still sinning and continuing to hurt people. Of course, not all Christians are mature in their faith, and so there are indeed instance of people who claim to be a Christian who don't act that way. Again, the question is not whether they are perfect or not, but whether they are seeking to grow to become the person God wills for them to be. If they are, however imperfect they may be at the moment, God accepts their faith as being sufficient for salvation. If they aren't seeking to grow to become the person God has called him/her to be, then the reality is that their faith is dead, for living faith always produces works (good works, works of repentance, works of growth in faith and growing conformity to God's will) in the life of those who truly have trusted in Jesus.

And btw, though you didn't ask, those who appear holy and righteous, but whose heart is not directed toward God. They are headed in the wrong direction, just as surely as if they were the worst of sinners, because given enough time, this is what one would see worked out in their lives. If the person isn't willing to make God #1, and serves something else before God, then there is no room for that person in God's kingdom.

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

When we turn our lives over to Jesus, we are become a new creation, the old is left behind. That includes our old sins as well. New sins may indeed be punished. Some, such as Catholics, teach a time of purgatory for the purging of those sins. Others would teach that there would be a reduction of the number of jewels in one's crown. But ultimately, Christians believe that God offers us grace that is greater than our sin. Without it, there is no possibility for anyone to gain entrance to heaven, for we don't believe that anyone could ever be good enough for God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Danah

In your view its the faith that lead a person to act righteously, so work and faith are working together well. While I really wonder how some people think that they can do whatever they like yet are assured that they have a free ticket to heaven just because they have faith in Jesus.

and yeah share some views with me please, I am curios to know.

I know a few, thankfully a very few, who hold to such views. To my way of understanding, which I hope you found in concert with what PouringRain wrote, the only way they can arrive at the conclusions which they do is to have read the scriptures amiss.

Sister Danah, would you agree that it is better to have faith without works than it is to have works without faith. The reason why is those who believed in Allah (swt) without ascribing partners to Him would eventually be taken out of the Hellfire. However, those who die while being unbelievers or while committing shirk will not be forgiven nor taken out of the Hellfire.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Sister Danah, would you agree that it is better to have faith without works than it is to have works without faith. The reason why is those who believed in Allah (swt) without ascribing partners to Him would eventually be taken out of the Hellfire. However, those who die while being unbelievers or while committing shirk will not be forgiven nor taken out of the Hellfire.

Belief should be based on evidence; not mere credulity. What evidence do you have that there is Hellfire with eternal torment?

format_quote Originally Posted by Danah

<font color="DarkGreen">Right, no one is perfect, but in Islam there is a very crystal clear relationship between work and faith. faith is nothing without work and work is nothing without faith either. and this is not just scholar interpretation like Christianity, but its mentioned in the Quran.

That's OK. You don't have to go and find each reference. I believe you that it is there. It is also not just interpretation in the Bible either. James very clearly writes what I said above: "living faith always produces works." Only his words were: "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). And to your very question about can a person just say they believe and be saved regardless of how they live, again I'll not interpret, but just let James answer: "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" (James 2:14). This is, I hope you realize, a rhetorical question, to which the answer is indisputedly NO!

format_quote Originally Posted by Danah

It seems to be so for anyone. But still, for someone to believe in Allah and his existence yet deny worshiping him, is considered as an act of Kufr, for example, the one who believe in Allah yet deny the obligation of prayer when prayer is one of the main pillars of Islam....that will be an obvious act of Kuffr.

Such person is ridiculing the majesty of Allah and just follow his own desires, this is just remind me of a group of people calling themselves deists.

Though you are using the language of the Qur'an, the thoughts you express here are every bit as much Christian in nature as they are Islamic:

James 1

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

see also

And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
(Micah 6:8)

Even Paul, who many use (and often misuse) to justify their antinomian views and declare that faith is the only thing that is important, actually says otherwise. Take a look at what is generally recognized as his greatest theological treatise, the letter to the Romans. He spends the majority of this letter making a case for the Christian faith, but when he concludes that, he then says that if one has such a faith, that there are implications as to what that means in the way one lives:

Romans 12

1 Therefore [that is, given all that he has taught about the Christian faith in the first 11 chapters], I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

He goes on like this with specific actions that are to be evidenced in the lives of anyone who has accepted this faith that he speaks of. I'm not denying that there some Christians who cherry pick their favorite verses which speak of the being saved by grace, through faith. Those verses are true, and indeed are among my favorite. But notice what the Bible actually teaches is that salvation is by grace, and through faith, not by faith -- there is a difference, and despite running multiple searches in several different translations, I could find no place where the Bible says that one is "saved by faith". And regardless, the Christian is not to be satisfied with merely the event of being saved. To experience God's saving grace and then stop there is to fail to follow the biblical injunctions to put that faith into practice, and additionally is to ignore the whole of the Christian scriptures which also teaches us to "work out our salvation" (Philippians 2:12).

Salvation has an immediate and an eternal meaning. Immediately, it means that your soul does not perish today. Eternally, it means that your soul does not perish on the Judgement Day, the Apocalypse.

Here is a quote from Jesus (pbuh) that I believe will help you understand salvation very quickly and simply:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he (Jesus) replied. “How do you read it?” He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Thankfully, the Gospel of Mark also records that Jesus (pbuh) holds you must believe "the Lord your God is one." Meaning, that there is only one God.

It is important to keep in mind the concept of the Judgement Day when you consider these things. From what I understand, both Islam and Christianity hold belief in the Last Day. Salvation ultimately refers to your standing on the last day, and living through it.

Salaam Alaikum,

format_quote Originally Posted by SalamChristian

Salvation has an immediate and an eternal meaning. Immediately, it means that your soul does not perish today. Eternally, it means that your soul does not perish on the Judgement Day, the Apocalypse.

</p>
Might salvation mean more than just being saved from hell? Might it not also mean being saved for God and for God's purposes?

The death that we die, is it not more than just the death of the soul? Is it not even more the separation that sinful creatures experience from being denied fellowship with the Holy One who is their creator? It isn't the cessation of breath, but the cessation of living in a right relationship with God that typifies one's spiritual death. God saves us from that by reconciling us to himself.


It is important to understand that we don't save ourselves by any particular act, but that God's work on the cross is that which actually accomplishes our salvation. We then live into it first by faith and trusting in God's work and promises, and then by living in submission to his will in our lives, we give evidence of that right relationship by conforming our behavior, even our very thoughts, to be in accord with what God would have us think and do rather than continuing on to simply do as we please, which really is evidence that we aren't living in that reconciled relationship after all and have rejected his saving grace.</p>