What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth? (OP)
Martinz, from a rational point of view, I agree with you that a virgin birth is not reasonable as people aren't parthenogenic - Greek origin (virgin + birth). I have actually thought about the birth of Jesus (as) due to my scientific background as a plant geneticist and breeder.
Theoretically, there are 2 cases where a mammalian mother could produce offspring without a male partner.
The first case is where a primary oocyte (diploid = 2n) does not undergo the reductionary cellular division (meiosis) to form eggs (haploid = 1N) which would then descend into the uterus and 'somehow' begin embryogenesis. In this case the offspring would be genetically identical to the mother, hence female. We know that humans originate from the mating of 2 different individuals with the combining of genetic material from both. This mating gives rise to individuals that are 'heterozygous' (Aa vs AA or aa) for a large number of genes.
The second case is where the unfertilized haploid (1n) egg would 'somehow' attach to the uterine wall and begin mitotic division, but undergo an initial cellular division failure after the first nuclear division had occurred. In this case, the cells would have 2 copies of the same set of chromosomes and the progeny would be what is called a doubled haploid. The progeny would be 'homozygous' (AA or aa) for every gene and, therefore, again female.
Now human parthenogensis has been induced in the lab to create human stem cells from unfertilized human eggs; however, we know that the mating of closely related people often results in children with genetic birth defects. This is because we are carriers of an undefined number of deleterious genes (a) that are masked by the presence of a functional gene (A) on the other chromosome. A human embryo resulting from a doubled haploid would most likely be lethal due to an excess of these deleterious genes in a homozygous (aa) state.
Since both of these cases would result in a female progeny if they occurred, Jesus could not have been formed by an explainable 'freak of nature' parthenogenesis. Therefore, there are 3 more alternatives.
The easiest to explain is that Mary had either consensual or forced intercourse with a man. In the first case, she would be a fornicator which is unacceptable to my understanding of Mary's high moral standing. In the second case, Mary would not to be blamed, but as in the first case it would make Jesus an illegitimate son which is the Jewish view of Jesus. I reject both of these because they are disrespectful of Mary and Jesus and because it is contrary to what Allah (swt) said in the Quran.
The second alternative is that Allah (swt) miraculously created sperm that fertilized one of Mary's eggs and the third alternative is that Allah (swt) miraculously created an embryo in Mary's uterus that subsequently went through normal embryogenesis resulting in Jesus' natural birth as a human. I believe in the last choice because it is consistent with the Quran, "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is." 3:59
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Actually, this is the best argument that I have heard given by a Muslim against the Trinity. But, it begins with an assumption that I don't make, namely that Allah is not present everywhere.
There is a difference in belief here. We believe that Allah (swt) is aware and knowledgeable about everything at all times even the inner most secrets of every person as indicated by 50:16 "And indeed We have created man, and We know what his own self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)." We believe that Allah (swt) exists outside of His creation, but He is fully aware of everything within the creation by His Knowledge. If one believes that God literally exists every at once then that must include His being present within despicable things that are so far beneath His Dignity and Majesty to even mention. His Existence is incomprehensible to us because it is outside the confines of space and time that we exist within.
Let me give you an example. How far across is the universe? I came across a site that says the radius of the universe is 14 billion light years from the center? Since the speed of light is almost 6 trillion miles/year, that means the universe is 14 billion X 2 (diameter is 2X radius) X 6 trillion miles. That comes to 1.6 followed by 23 zeros miles across the universe, a number that for all practical purposes to my mind is infinity. Which brings to mind a quote from Buzz Lightyear, "To infinity and beyond!" Honestly, what is only 1 cm beyond infinity or what is just outside the outer limits of the universe. Well, if you have read to this point your brain is probably flippin' out like mine is. My understanding is that Allah (swt) exists outside the confines of even this unimaginably great distance across the universe. With all of that said, I can't imagine Allah (swt) existing within the confines of a single human body. That blows my mind even more than the distance across the universe does. And Allah (swt) knows best His existence while we comprehend but very little.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
With all of that said, I can't imagine Allah (swt) existing within the confines of a single human body. That blows my mind even more than the distance across the universe does. And Allah (swt) knows best His existence while we comprehend but very little.
Agreed. I can't imagine it either. It blows my mind as well. And in some cases I also agree it would seem to be beneath him. But revelation tells me that it is nonetheless true. (Though I don't mean to imply any sort of pantheism or panthenism by these statements.) This is one of the things that the incarnation in particular makes known to us about God. Given God's utter greatness, and our utter baseness, the depth of his humiliation to come in the form of human being and live lives on par with us is a testimony to an even greater love that the Creator has for his creation and his desire to restor it to proper relationship with himself that he would stoop so low as the incarnation implies for him to do so. These are distinctions betweeon the attributes of God in our two faiths. It seems that in Islam, Allah's magnificients will not allow him to so humiliate himself. But this willingness to do so out of love is his greatest attribute to the Christian understanding, so much so that it is often enough for us when describe God to simply say, "God is love."
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 02-26-2011 at 09:45 PM.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
We believe that Allah (swt) exists outside of His creation
i would ask if you could explain to me what this means? as i understand it, allah seems to reside in heaven and is not heaven a creation of allah, or do muslims believe that allah did not create heaven? i know that muslims say that allah cannot enter into his creation but that is contradictory to him residing in the same sphere as adam when he created him and blew into his nostrils. or the fact that numerous angels encircle his throne. so i think that on this point, what muslims say and what islam teaches are two different things. let us not forget that time, space, matter, length, width, height are all also his creation and given everything that has been said so far, it would seem to me that allah does in fact enter into his creation contrary to what i am told by most muslims. now that is merely my opinion, i would very much like a more detailed explanation of this concept.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
thats easy sol, imagine a marble between two fingertips..
assuming god has fingertips lol.. angels are made of light so i think any anology that we may be able to imagine is not respective enough of the nature of god.. which is nothing comparable to anything we can compare it to.
as for heaven being a creation of god.. i cant understand what heaven even is, you might tell me its the garden but where the garden is, what sphere of reality is not understood.
its like the whole universe being a blade of grass and expecting to learn the nature of god whiles living on this blade of grass.
what that meant was for all intents and purposes you cant leave this universe(creation) no matter how hard you try other than one way... guess how?
and when you go there is no coming back.. untill god brings you back to life and judges you and then puts you where ever you need to be.
so when he says outside of creation.. it should be easy to understand.
as for the matter, gravity etc etc.. just further shows an enclosed system.. a created system with universal laws. hard to imagine clouds of electrons being the basis of life but it probably isnt.
lol the blowing into adam is probably more indicative of the nature of man but more and more so the nature of sol is apparent.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
thats easy sol, imagine a marble between two fingertips..
assuming god has fingertips lol.. angels are made of light so i think any anology that we may be able to imagine is not respective enough of the nature of god.. which is nothing comparable to anything we can compare it to.
as for heaven being a creation of god.. i cant understand what heaven even is, you might tell me its the garden but where the garden is, what sphere of reality is not understood.
its like the whole universe being a blade of grass and expecting to learn the nature of god whiles living on this blade of grass.
what that meant was for all intents and purposes you cant leave this universe(creation) no matter how hard you try other than one way... guess how?
and when you go there is no coming back.. untill god brings you back to life and judges you and then puts you where ever you need to be.
so when he says outside of creation.. it should be easy to understand.
as for the matter, gravity etc etc.. just further shows an enclosed system.. a created system with universal laws. hard to imagine clouds of electrons being the basis of life but it probably isnt.
lol the blowing into adam is probably more indicative of the nature of man but more and more so the nature of sol is apparent.
i don't know if it's just me but i do not understand what you are getting at with the above...it might be a language barrier or something of the sort but i simply don't understand. but i do appreciate you having taken the time to type out a response to my question and sorry that our inability to communicate properly with one another is keeping your post from fulfilling its use.
originally by MustataMC
I can see the distinction between the Son and the Father, but I fail to see the unity of the two. How can one pray to the other or one sit on the right hand of the other and yet both be One God?
Sure. If there is no unity between them, then the matter is settled. Jesus is just a teacher, a servant of God, and nothing more.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
How do you reconcile this view with Acts 3:13, "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servantJesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go."? This verse distinguishes between God and Jesus as His servant.
Point being that if one only sees the distinction between the Son and the Father, and not also the unity, then verses like Acts 3:13 which speak of Jesus as God's servant become the last word with regard to Jesus. However, because of other passages (e.g. John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." and John 14:9 "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." -- among many others) I do see that a unity does exist.
Therefore, we Christians must have a theology that holds in tension two seeming unresolvable ideas that the Father and the Son are distinct and at the same time the the Father and the Son are one. Thus, Jesus is a teacher, but not just a teacher. Jesus is a servant of God, but not just a servant of God. Jesus is, in fact, as best I understand the Bible, God every bit as much as the Father is God. However, I fear any further exploration of this subject will simply lead us back to the never ending discussion of the Trinity. Do you want to go there? Or do you want to keep the focus on the nature of Jesus' birth?
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 02-26-2011 at 10:53 PM.
Reason: to ask where Mustafa wanted this thread to go
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
i would ask if you could explain to me what this means? as i understand it, allah seems to reside in heaven
Perhaps, I have already spoken more than I know, but I believe that there are other planes of existence that are beyond our capacity to understand. My understanding is that Allah's (swt) existence is not something that we can comprehend. My body is 98% comprised of the elements oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and calcium. I have a hypothetical question for you: "What do you suppose is the elemental composition of Allah (swt)?" Do you not see the absurdity of such a question? Now another question: "Where do you suppose Heaven is and what is the best way to get there?" The point is that we speak about things for which we have so little knowledge, and Allah (swt) knows best.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
i don't know if it's just me but i do not understand what you are getting at with the above...it might be a language barrier or something of the sort but i simply don't understand. but i do appreciate you having taken the time to type out a response to my question and sorry that our inability to communicate properly with one another is keeping your post from fulfilling its use.
go watch the matrix lol
disrigard all the shooting, the underlying concept is the same.
1 a created universe.. (the material and subjugating world)
2 within a created universe.. (the actual universe)
people who can understand why point one and two exist..
when you can learn to disrigard both, you can finally start learning about the other.
that is the test apparently.. does god reside in 1 or 2? the answer is that god is external to both and yet nothing occurs in either without permission.
someone could convince you they had a hand in fate, but for every person who has lead others.. when something occurs that they cannot control.. then they are shown to themselves in error manifest.
i dont know if any of you have seen the film constantine but i remember that bit when the devil tries to take him and he cannot be moved, the devil turns around and shoves his hands into his chest and removes cancer.. saying he will live.
at this point you could probably understand that he was going to live anyway.
the quran is truely the path without any deviation in bringing belief to yourself.. not in any other than god.
the analogies i have made are of little consequence, but as sure as all physical laws of the universe are set.. the laws of god are also set.
im a film buff so forgive the analogies...i doubt you will get them anyway, im a daydreamer and those are only the tip of the iceberg
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Perhaps, I have already spoken more than I know, but I believe that there are other planes of existence that are beyond our capacity to understand. My understanding is that Allah's (swt) existence is not something that we can comprehend. My body is 98% comprised of the elements oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and calcium. I have a hypothetical question for you: "What do you suppose is the elemental composition of Allah (swt)?" Do you not see the absurdity of such a question? Now another question: "Where do you suppose Heaven is and what is the best way to get there?" The point is that we speak about things for which we have so little knowledge, and Allah (swt) knows best.
maybe we are broaching a topic that our finite minds cannot comprehend but let me try again. science tells us that among other things, space (the dimensions of length, width, height etc.) were created at the moment of the big bang. we theists believe that this was done by god. as such, before the big bang, these properties did not exist. now the muslim understanding is that god is in heaven (a creation of his), is surrounded by angels (creation of his), sits on a throne and as such indwells the spheres of length, width, height (a creation of his). these simple things establish that allah has indeed entered his creation. in entering the sphere of space and in allowing himself to be localized on a throne in heaven, he exhibits the dimensions of space (something he would not exhibit before he had created space) and as such he has indeed entered his creation. now my question to you is whether or not this is the case. i am merely asking what muslims mean by the statement, "allah does not enter into his creation" when from the above it is quite clear these he does. more than anything, i just want to know how islamic scholars have explained the matter and what exactly they mean by this.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
maybe we are broaching a topic that our finite minds cannot comprehend but let me try again. science tells us that among other things, space (the dimensions of length, width, height etc.) were created at the moment of the big bang. we theists believe that this was done by god. as such, before the big bang, these properties did not exist. now the muslim understanding is that god is in heaven (a creation of his), is surrounded by angels (creation of his), sits on a throne and as such indwells the spheres of length, width, height (a creation of his). these simple things establish that allah has indeed entered his creation. in entering the sphere of space and in allowing himself to be localized on a throne in heaven, he exhibits the dimensions of space (something he would not exhibit before he had created space) and as such he has indeed entered his creation. now my question to you is whether or not this is the case. i am merely asking what muslims mean by the statement, "allah does not enter into his creation" when from the above it is quite clear these he does. more than anything, i just want to know how islamic scholars have explained the matter and what exactly they mean by this.
you misrepresent the point to such an extent that your own sillyness shows, its a question of understanding rather than grammer... something most of your arguments are based on time and time again lol.
as trolling goes its a logical argument, unfortuately read my posts again and again... the answer is the same.
if you can get from where you are now to heaven and back... then it is in creation.
..so who was it created for?
lol
anyhoo, what you are actually asking is what was there before god made anything... before he made the throne and the angels and then all sorts of other odds and ends?
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
you misrepresent the point to such an extent that your own sillyness shows, its a question of understanding rather than grammer... something most of your arguments are based on time and time again lol.
as trolling goes its a logical argument, unfortuately read my posts again and again... the answer is the same.
if you can get from where you are now to heaven and back... then it is in creation.
..so who was it created for?
lol
anyhoo, what you are actually asking is what was there before god made anything... before he made the throne and the angels and then all sorts of other odds and ends?
the above shows nothing but your own ignorance. i have not nor have i ever asked what existed before god made anything. you would do well to read my posts again.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
This is one of the things that the incarnation in particular makes known to us about God.
The act of 'incarnation' (embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form) is something I fail to comprehend. According to your faith, when God 'became flesh' in Jesus' (as) body, did all of Him become incarnate or was it only only a piece of Him? Could the Word be along the same lines as what we believe regarding the Quran as being the Word of Allah (swt)?
These are distinctions between the attributes of God in our two faiths. It seems that in Islam, Allah's magnificients will not allow him to so humiliate himself. But this willingness to do so out of love is his greatest attribute to the Christian understanding, so much so that it is often enough for us when describe God to simply say, "God is love."
No, I can't imagine God needing to eat, drink and relieve Himself of bodily waste. Glory to Allah (swt) in the highest that He is above such baseness!
That illustrates again the difference in our understanding of God, I see Allah (swt) as magnificent, majestic, glorious and worthy of worship simply because of those attributes. From what I can tell about the Christian faith, God (Jesus) is worthy of worship because in spite of God's majesty, He chose to lower Himself to become flesh so that humans may be cleansed of their sins by suffering a humiliating death on the cross. Hence, their adoration is not so much because of who he is, but rather what he did on the cross.
Now the question remains, "If God became flesh during the embryology/birth of Jesus (as) was it all of Him or just a part?"
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
the above shows nothing but your own ignorance. i have not nor have i ever asked what existed before god made anything. you would do well to read my posts again.
im sorry about that,
the concept of length, width and height may be just as alien to god as time.
anyway, iv contributed too much drivel to this thread so im of to bed.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
maybe we are broaching a topic that our finite minds cannot comprehend but let me try again.
How specifically does your questions relate to the topic at hand?
BTW I have run out of words for other ways to say, "Allah (swt) exists beyond our capacity to comprehend." He has revealed to us some of His attributes to give us some understanding of Who it is that we worship. However, you keep trying to put God into a box by trying to wrap your mind around a comprehensible concept of His existence. I am sorry to tell you, but it ain't gonna happen at least during this lifetime, anyway.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Now the question remains, "If God became flesh during the embryology/birth of Jesus (as) was it all of Him or just a part?"
The very question presupposes something with regard to God that I do not presuppose, namely that God can be quantified. Now, I saw something in Sol Invictus' post that may (I repeat) help me to get a handle on where you are coming from with this question, but I do not know if he accurately represented either your own thinking or the overall understanding of Islam with regard to Allah. So, forgive me for going back to it before I try to better address your question, but I need to better understand your own thinking with regard to the nature Allah before I can help you to understand how your question doesn't even sound like a reasonable question to me, when I am sure it is quite reasonable to you.
format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
now the muslim understanding is that god is in heaven (a creation of his), is surrounded by angels (creation of his), sits on a throne and as such indwells the spheres of length, width, height (a creation of his). these simple things establish that allah has indeed entered his creation. in entering the sphere of space and in allowing himself to be localized on a throne in heaven, he exhibits the dimensions of space (something he would not exhibit before he had created space) and as such he has indeed entered his creation.
Does Sol Invictus represent either your or Islam accurately when he concludes that Allah exhibits the dimensions of space? You see, I see this behind your question as it asks about God as if he were a being bound by space (i.e. "all of him" or "just a part"). So, I want to be sure I understand any axiomatic understandings you have about God that we may or may not share before I try to address your question in order that I am responding to your actuial question and not something else.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
That illustrates again the difference in our understanding of God, I see Allah (swt) as magnificent, majestic, glorious and worthy of worship simply because of those attributes. From what I can tell about the Christian faith, God (Jesus) is worthy of worship because in spite of God's majesty, He chose to lower Himself to become flesh so that humans may be cleansed of their sins by suffering a humiliating death on the cross. Hence, their adoration is not so much because of who he is, but rather what he did on the cross.
No doubt some Christians may worship simply out of thanksgiving for his gift of salvation, but I agree that is a rather selfish reason to worship. I suspect that some Muslims worship simply in hope of being offered admittance to Jannah or not being thrown into the firey pit. Both groups of people seem to me to miss the point that God should be worshipped simply for who he is -- God. We may of course express thanks for his other gifts of light and life and love and, yes, also salvation. If Jesus was merely an instrument by which God effected grace in our lives, he would still be a pretty important figure (as Muhammad is for you in being a willing, submissive instrument of Allah), but we would not worship him. We worship him because we do indeed believe him to be God, the very God who made covenant with Abraham and with Moses and who now makes covenant with all who trust in the his work on the cross as providing a new way for us to be in fellowship with God.
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The very question presupposes something with regard to God that I do not presuppose, namely that God can be quantified.
The point of my rhetorical question is that God can't be fully or even partially embodied within Jesus' (as) body as it is an absurdity.
Does Sol Invictus represent either your or Islam accurately when he concludes that Allah exhibits the dimensions of space? You see, I see this behind your question as it asks about God as if he were a being bound by space (i.e. "all of him" or "just a part"). So, I want to be sure I understand any axiomatic understandings you have about God that we may or may not share before I try to address your question in order that I am responding to your actuial question and not something else.
Sol Invictus did not speak the truth with what he wrote and neither do you in repeating it. I see it as a vain attempt to misdirect the attention away from the questions that I asked regarding the incarnation of God within the body of Jesus (astaghfir'Allah) which are pertinent to this thread.
Rather than my writing without knowledge, I will quote from this site: sunnah . org/aqida/aqida1.htm
A man asked Imam Malik: "How did Allah make istiwa' on the throne?" Imam Malik inclined his head and was silent until the sweat of fever covered his brow, then he looked up and said: "Istiwa' (establishment over the Throne) is not unknown, the modality of it is inconceivable in the mind; but belief in it is obligatory, and inquiring about it is a heretical innovation. You are an innovator." And he gave orders for him to be taken out.
Imam Shafi`i in his small treatise entitled al-Fiqh al-akbar said: "Whoever says: al-Rahmanu `ala al-`arsh istawa, it is said to him: This verse is one of the ambiguous matter concerning which one is perplexed to give an answer, and the same is said regarding similar verses."
Imam Abu Mansur `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi in Usul al-Din says: "The correct position according to us is the interpretation of the Throne in this verse to mean the sovereignty, as if He meant that the sovereignty has not been established for any but Him. This interpretation is taken from the saying of the Arabs: "So-and-so's Throne has toppled" if he lost his power." He then cites three examples from poetry illustrating this. He says about the characteristics of Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a in his al-Farq bayn al-firaq (The differences between the sects): "Ahl al-Sunna are in consensus that Allah, the Flawless, the Exalted, is not bounded by location." He then reports the saying of Sayidina `Ali: "Allah created the Throne as an indication of His power, not for taking it as a place for Himself."
Imam Nawawi said in Sharh al-muhadhdhab: "It is said: We believe that the Merciful is established over the Throne, and we do not know the reality of the meaning of this nor what is meant by it, while we do believe that "There is nothing like Him whatsoever" and that He is exalted far above the most elevated of created things. That is the way of the Salaf or at least their vast majority, and it is the safest because one is not required to probe into such matters."
Shaykh `Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulusi's statement already quoted: "Whoever believes that Allah permeates the Heavens and the Earth, or that He is a body sitting on His Throne, is a disbeliever, even if he thinks he is a Muslim."
Even Sulayman ibn `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab, the Wahhabi founder's grandson, declared as unbeliever anyone who used the term "in person" in relation to Allah being in a place, whether one place or an infinite number: "Whoever believes or says: Allah is in person in every place, or in one place: he is a disbeliever. It is obligatory to declare that Allah is distinct from His creation, established over His throne without modality or likeness or examplarity. Allah was and there was no place, then He created place and He is exalted as He was before He created place."
Re: What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
We worship him (Jesus) because we do indeed believe him to be God, the very God who made covenant with Abraham and with Moses and who now makes covenant with all who trust in the his work on the cross as providing a new way for us to be in fellowship with God.
This clearly and unequivocally illustrates that the god you worship is different from Allah (swt) whom I worship.
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