Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?
First to clarify the definition of 2 important words: Atone - to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.)
From a Christian perspective, does Allah forgive (cancel, erase) a Christian of his sin or is his debt of sins atoned (paid, compensated) for by Jesus' Blood? One may see it as nit-picking but if a debt is forgiven then it is cancelled as a free gift without any payment from anyone. I see an atonement as a payment to offset or substitute for that debt even if the one to whom the debt is owed makes arrangement for its payment. If the debt is to Allah, then I don't see how He can pay or sacrifice Himself for something that is owed to Him. It makes more sense that out of His mercy and with a figurative sweep of His hand, then the sin debt vanishes.
A human repents by feeling regret, asking for forgiveness and intending to not repeat the sin, but how does he make amends? In Islam we make amends or atonement for our sins by offering additional charity, fasts or prayers, but are those deeds required for forgiveness? We have the concept of offsetting sins with good deeds akin to a balancing scale of justice, but this is seen as 'earning' one's salvation. Isn't Allah able to forgive sin with only repentance or is an atonement or payment for sin debt also required?
I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?
I just read the first part. It sounds a lot like me except for the fact that I was raised as a Christian and always took it for granted that Christianity was the way. I never really questioned it until I was a teenager. Then I became an atheist for a few years in my 20's. Then I was a deist until recently. I believed that there was a God but was not sure who He was. Now I am back to Christianity but am struggling with some concepts of it. Now I am studying Islam and have to admit that a lot of it makes sense to me...
So why does Jesus (peace be upon him) always say that he was the "Son of Man" in the New Testament and not the "Son of God?"
I believe that Jesus referred to himself as the 'Son of Man' to emphasize and to make indisputable his humanity. Perhaps he even knew that people would try to deify him after he was gone. In the Quran Jesus is mentioned over 20 times and nearly ever instance is followed by the title 'Son of Mary', again I believe to make it evidently clear that he is not the 'Son of God'.
And where does the Holy Spirit fit into all of this anyway? Those are two things I admit that I am struggling with right now.
We Muslims believe that the Holy Ghost in the NT is the angel Gabriel. In the Quran he is referred to as Ruh (spirit) Qudus (holy).
I just read the first part. It sounds a lot like me except for the fact that I was raised as a Christian and always took it for granted that Christianity was the way. I never really questioned it until I was a teenager. Then I became an atheist for a few years in my 20's. Then I was a deist until recently. I believed that there was a God but was not sure who He was. Now I am back to Christianity but am struggling with some concepts of it. Now I am studying Islam and have to admit that a lot of it makes sense to me...
Welcome with us, Pre-Brother
If you have any question, pls ask us: it is your right to ask us and our duty, as Muslims, to answer you.
I wish that you have read the material I have posted before in the link:
4shared.com/document/OBA20Hqu/The_Truth.html
It is a nice slide show PDF file with active links, free from viruses 100%
I just read the first part. It sounds a lot like me except for the fact that I was raised as a Christian and always took it for granted that Christianity was the way. I never really questioned it until I was a teenager. Then I became an atheist for a few years in my 20's. Then I was a deist until recently. I believed that there was a God but was not sure who He was. Now I am back to Christianity but am struggling with some concepts of it. Now I am studying Islam and have to admit that a lot of it makes sense to me...
Pls have the time to see this material about Crucifixion.
Brother Ahmad Deedat was one of the best who debate Christian.
Well I'm at work right now and they don't allow streaming video here (fasicts!), so I will have to check out those links when I get home tonight.
I do want to say that I appreciate the openness and honesty that I have found here so far. I was a bit wary about stepping in here as an unbeliever, but I feel more comfortable here than I do in some of the churches where I live.
Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?
First to clarify the definition of 2 important words: Atone - to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.)
From a Christian perspective, does Allah forgive (cancel, erase) a Christian of his sin or is his debt of sins atoned (paid, compensated) for by Jesus' Blood? One may see it as nit-picking but if a debt is forgiven then it is cancelled as a free gift without any payment from anyone. I see an atonement as a payment to offset or substitute for that debt even if the one to whom the debt is owed makes arrangement for its payment. If the debt is to Allah, then I don't see how He can pay or sacrifice Himself for something that is owed to Him. It makes more sense that out of His mercy and with a figurative sweep of His hand, then the sin debt vanishes.
A human repents by feeling regret, asking for forgiveness and intending to not repeat the sin, but how does he make amends? In Islam we make amends or atonement for our sins by offering additional charity, fasts or prayers, but are those deeds required for forgiveness? We have the concept of offsetting sins with good deeds akin to a balancing scale of justice, but this is seen as 'earning' one's salvation. Isn't Allah able to forgive sin with only repentance or is an atonement or payment for sin debt also required?
I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?
asalamu alaikum
the subject matter actually stems from a more ideological (or I should say doctrinal) issue with regards to the performance of actions being a necessitating factor of faith itself.
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
In Islam there is nothing whatsoever that I can ever do to benefit Allah (swt) in the smallest way such that I deserve to be rewarded for it and if I am granted Paradise it will be due solely to the mercy and compassion of my Lord.[/COLOR]
Try not to think of it in terms of who our compensation is for the benefit of Allah, but for the benefit of ourselves.
If Allah established the rules for compensation, in reality those rules were set in place for the benefits of our own soul.
This is why it is most proper to say that our committal of sins opens ourselves up to the punishment o Allah and our abandonment of evil and the adoption of good opens ourselves up for the Mercy of Allah. This is so as to not absolutely condemn a person for doing evil because Allah may forgive him and likewise to congratulate a person for being righteous because it is only through the Mercy of Allah that enters one in jannah.
As for the christians, their doctrine has what we in Islam know as irjaa.
asalamu alaikum
ابو نعيمة علي البريكي
Islam's Think Tank: Deciphering Antagonist Jargon, Heretical Doctrines, Extracting the Principles of Shariah, Information in all the Islamic Sciences
This is why it is most proper to say that our committal of sins opens ourselves up to the punishment o Allah and our abandonment of evil and the adoption of good opens ourselves up for the Mercy of Allah. This is so as to not absolutely condemn a person for doing evil because Allah may forgive him and likewise to congratulate a person for being righteous because it is only through the Mercy of Allah that enters one in jannah.
I agree. We aren't able to judge intentions and we don't know one's condition upon his death.
As for the christians, their doctrine has what we in Islam know as irjaa.
I came here to learn more about Islamic way of thinking and so far I am learning certainly. One thing that is clear is numereous pre-conceived ideas the Muslim world have on Christianity, it is amazing. It does not help when they can be easly linked to something real, but they are still preconceived and it makes it harder to explain the real thing.
The last posts reminded me of a priest on youtube who has inspired how the understanding of my faith in a such a way that I am able to make a clear distinction between other Faiths as well as atheists. In the clips that I would like to recommend, he covers all these questions one by one in ordered way, and he is not talking to non-Christians (not trying to convert non-christians), which makes it easy case study for non-Christians. You can put his name in the youtube search box and add one of these words: Creation, Fall, The Cross and Resurrection, how Jesus is Messaiah, Israel Church Law, Judgement, Hell.
His name is Fr. Barron. He also have many clips called 'faith seeks understanding'. They cover more under Q/A form from who/what God is to the last judgment.
For those who have asked me questions, please check out those videos, you will then have an idea of where I am coming from and it will be easy to dialogue. Othewise, it is looking like some scenes from 'The Gods Must Be Crazy' movie.
I am a former Christian and I have an understanding of Protestant Christian theology. My questions are not based on preconceived ideas, but are the result of a recent conversation I had with a Christian and his wife. A conversation takes 2 people discussing the same issue - something that you seem not to want to participate in. This forum is 'Comparative Religion' and I am most clearly comparing Christianity with Islam.
My intention is to demonstrate the Truth of Islam and that the foundation of Christianity is based on a fallacious myth that sin MUST be punished. I have done this with the use of merely 2 words - 'forgiveness' and 'atonement'. Foregiveness is wiping clean the record of offense or debt without any payment being made; whereas, atonement is an offsetting sacrifice or payment or good action to substitute for punishment for the offense. There is a subtle difference between these 2 words and concepts, but the importance of these differences are magnificently huge. If God can forgive a debt (of sin) just as the sinner has forgiven debts (of offense) against him, then where is the need for Jesus' supposed ultimate redeeming sacrifice on the cross? The Lord's Prayer, nor any of Jesus' parables, makes no mention of the need for a redeeming sacrifice, the only one acceptable of which is his own life.
For those who have asked me questions, please check out those videos, you will then have an idea of where I am coming from and it will be easy to dialogue. Othewise, it is looking like some scenes from 'The Gods Must Be Crazy' movie.
Salam Amigo,
I think you fail to realise that the majority of people who are responding to you, myself included are ex Christians.
Your underhand and to your mind subtle references and hints to our ignorance makes you a person, who should wish and pray to be a tenth of a human being of that man who stared in the above mentioned movie.
I spend part of my military stint in the Kalahari so I speak from experience.
Your name suggests Hispanic origin plus as you say catholic, I happen to be living in Spain when Franco died and the number one best seller within days of his demise, became the Bible in Spanish, which up to then was strictly prohibited and what followed soon after the Bible's public release, the well known Exodus.
So return to your roots and call your brethren back to rule of Paul and let us be for you have more of a chance of turning into an aquatic mammal, before getting one of us to even accept your words, never mind concidering them.
Quoting from the Bible, Matthew 18:23-27 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. This passage is most evidently clear an illustration (directly attributed to Jesus) of straight away forgiveness with no payment by anyone whatsover. I am also reminded of the parable of the Prodigal Son as an illustration of forgiveness.
As a former Christian, I once saw that the sacrifice that God (as Jesus) made to come to earth and die a horrible death on the cross so that I may have remission of sin and gain eternal life was a wondrous illustration of God's love for humanity. I now see the attribute of Allah (swt) to forgive sin as an illustration of His majesty, mercy and compassion as so often repeated in Islam - Bismillah ar-Rahmani ar-Rheem (In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate). Supreme glory and praise to Allah alone, the Lord of the universe and all that exists, and the Master of the Day of Judgment!
I think you fail to realise that the majority of people who are responding to you, myself included are ex Christians.
Your underhand and to your mind subtle references and hints to our ignorance makes you a person, who should wish and pray to be a tenth of a human being of that man who stared in the above mentioned movie.
I spend part of my military stint in the Kalahari so I speak from experience.
Your name suggests Hispanic origin plus as you say catholic, I happen to be living in Spain when Franco died and the number one best seller within days of his demise, became the Bible in Spanish, which up to then was strictly prohibited and what followed soon after the Bible's public release, the well known Exodus.
So return to your roots and call your brethren back to rule of Paul and let us be for you have more of a chance of turning into an aquatic mammal, before getting one of us to even accept your words, never mind concidering them.
I am a former Christian and I have an understanding of Protestant Christian theology. My questions are not based on preconceived ideas, but are the result of a recent conversation I had with a Christian and his wife. A conversation takes 2 people discussing the same issue - something that you seem not to want to participate in. This forum is 'Comparative Religion' and I am most clearly comparing Christianity with Islam.
My intention is to demonstrate the Truth of Islam and that the foundation of Christianity is based on a fallacious myth that sin MUST be punished. I have done this with the use of merely 2 words - 'forgiveness' and 'atonement'. Foregiveness is wiping clean the record of offense or debt without any payment being made; whereas, atonement is an offsetting sacrifice or payment or good action to substitute for punishment for the offense. There is a subtle difference between these 2 words and concepts, but the importance of these differences are magnificently huge. If God can forgive a debt (of sin) just as the sinner has forgiven debts (of offense) against him, then where is the need for Jesus' supposed ultimate redeeming sacrifice on the cross? The Lord's Prayer, nor any of Jesus' parables, makes no mention of the need for a redeeming sacrifice, the only one acceptable of which is his own life.
People are always defining their own Christianity, It has been done from the beginning. If someone define his own Christinity and set on to disprouve it, well, it's like designing a game and playing it yourself.
In reality, when laws are not respected, injuries and death happen.
Restoration/Mercy consists of healing the wounds or raising from the dead. It is never about cancellation of the desrespect that happened at the beginning.
Forgiveness of sin is about healing and restoring, men who are wounded by their own sins when they disrespected the good laws of the Lord. It is not about imaginary
cancellations.
Justice of God is about good laws that keep in life and healing and restoring. It is not about punishment. God does not need anything or to be paid for anything.
Jesus suffered and died because this is the condition of man, the world of man. Man suffers and dies. The worst die as criminals under punishment.
The greatest wound to heal, is death and death related to crimes.
The point of the Cross is that the Power of God's Mercy can reach the greatests wounds and can heal them. It can reach the most miserable human beings wherever he may be, alive or dead.
The Power of God does not opperate in imagination, but in reality.
You mean you "all" are ?
Any way I for one don't think so, that you are Christian.
Even through the PC the fumes of sulpher, come !
Behind me art thou ! ! !
People are always defining their own Christianity, It has been done from the beginning. If someone define his own Christinity and set on to disprouve it, well, it's like designing a game and playing it yourself.
The best that I can tell you are making up what you write as you go. Your words are illogical and they are not backed up by any scripture. As far as I am concerned your words are merely hearsay.
I find the type of answers such as that from Amigo fairly typical of Christianity----it seems to be a "Chrsitian thing" to so inundate a person with nonsensical terms that one hopefuly forgets the question in their attempts to figure out the answer-----which is an impossibility because the answer itself makes no sense anyway....and persisting on getting an answer that does make sense ends up with the typical "its a mystery" bit.......
irjaa is a creedal doctrine that was innovated into some groups among the Muslims who altered the view of faith and disbelief from the traditional orthodox doctrine.
to be extremely brief and to the point, two statements should be enough
Abu Na’im who narrates from Sufyān Ath-Thawrī that he said,
The Murji’ah differed from us in three matters: We say that Īmān is sayings and actions and they say that Īmān is sayings without actions. We say that it increases and decreases and they say that it does not increase and that it does not decrease. We say that we are Mu.minūn (only with) approval (i.e. by saying Inshā-Allāh) and they say that we are (guaranteed) Mu.minūn in the eyes of Allāh
Hilyat Al-.Awliyā.., Vol. 7/29
The Murji’ah are of four types:
1: Those who say that eemaan is merely knowledge (ma’rifah), even if this is not accompanied by testification (tasdeeq) .
This is the statement of the Jahmiyyah.
This is the most evil and the ugliest of statements. It is in fact disbelief (kufr) in Allah Azza wa Jall, because the mushrikoon from the early times, and Pharaoh (Firawn), and Haamaan and Qaaroon and (even) Iblees all acknowledged (the existence) of Allaah, Azza wa Jall, in their hearts. However because they did not state this on their tongues, nor testify to this in their hearts, nor act upon it with their limbs, then this knowledge did not benefit them.
2: Those who say that emaan is testification in the heart only.
This is the statement of the Ashaa’irah (the Ash’arees).
This is also a false statement since the disbelievers (kuffaar) testify in their hearts, they know that the Quraan is True and that the Messenger (sal Allaahu alaiyhi wa sallam) is True, and the Jews and Christians know that.
Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) as they recognise their sons; but verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it – [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam which are written in the Tawraat and the Injeel]. (Surah Al Baqarah: 146)
And they testify to it in their hearts.
Allaah Ta'aala says regarding the Mushrikoon: We know indeed the grief which their words cause you (O Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam); it is not you that they deny but it is the Ayaat of Allaah that the Dhaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) deny. (Surah Al An’aam: 33)
So these people did not state upon their tongues nor did they act with their limbs, yet they did testify in their hearts – so they did not become people of eemaan (mu’minoon).
3: The statement of those who are the direct opposite of the Ashaa’irah - and they are the Karaamiyah. Those who say that eemaan is statement on the tongue even if the person does not truly believe in his heart.
Without doubt, this is a false statement since the hypocrites (munaafiqoon) – those who are in the lowest depths of the Fire – say “We bear witness that laa ilaaha ill Allaah and that Muhammad rasool ullaah’ with their tongues and they act (accordingly) with their limbs, but they do not truly believe in that nor do they testify to it in their hearts.
This is just as Allaah Ta'aala says: When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) they say: ‘We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allaah’. And Allaah knows that you are indeed His Messenger and Allaah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed. They have made their oaths a screen (for their hypocrisy). In this way they hinder (men) from the Path of Allaah. Verily, evil is what they used to do. (Surah Al Munaafiqoon: 1-2)
And He says, Subhaanahu wa ta’aala: They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. (Surah Al Fath: 11)
4: The statement of the murji’ah al fuqahaa, and they are the lightest of the groups in terms of irjaa’ - those who say that eemaan is belief (i’tiqaad) in the heart and statement upon the tongue, but action does not enter into it.
This is the statement of the Murji’ah al-Fuqahaa and this is a statement which is also incorrect since there is no emaan without action.”
asalamu alaikum
ابو نعيمة علي البريكي
Islam's Think Tank: Deciphering Antagonist Jargon, Heretical Doctrines, Extracting the Principles of Shariah, Information in all the Islamic Sciences
People are always defining their own Christianity, It has been done from the beginning. If someone define his own Christinity and set on to disprouve it, well, it's like designing a game and playing it yourself.
well, what exactly do you think Christianity is? There is no criterion that exist in Christianity whereby orthodoxy and heresy can be clearly defined. That mechanism is simply non existent in christiandome.
The point of the Cross is that the Power of God's Mercy can reach the greatests wounds and can heal them. It can reach the most miserable human beings wherever he may be, alive or dead.
The Power of God does not opperate in imagination, but in reality.
God needed to allow for His enemies to capture His chosen one, Jesus alaihi salam, so as to convince man that Mercy can reach the greatest if wounds. So you seriously believe that that is reality and not the epitome of imagination?
ابو نعيمة علي البريكي
Islam's Think Tank: Deciphering Antagonist Jargon, Heretical Doctrines, Extracting the Principles of Shariah, Information in all the Islamic Sciences
I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?
One might compare the concept of God in Islam versus the concept of God in Christianity and decide for himself which concept befits God the best.
Here is a hadith about God's great might, power, wisdom and His forgiveness.......
-----------------------------
Sa'id ibn 'Abdu'l-'Aziz from Rabi'a ibn Yazid from Abu Idris al-Khawlani from Abu Dharr Jundub ibn Junada reported from the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in what is related from what Allah the Blessed and Almighty said,
"O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice to Myself and I have made it unlawful between you, so do not wrong one another.
O My slaves! All of you are misguided except those that I guide, so seek My guidance and I will guide you.
O My slaves! All of you are hungry except those that I feed so ask me for food and I will feed you.
O My slaves! All of you are naked except those that I clothe so ask me for clothing and I will clothe you.
O My slaves! You make mistakes by night and by day and I forgive all wrong actions so ask for My forgiveness and I will forgive you.
O My slaves! You will never attain to My harm so as to be able to harm Me and you will never attain to My benefit so as to be able benefit Me.
O My slaves! If the first and last of you, all the jinn and all the men among you, possessed the heart of the most God-fearing man among you, that would not increase My kingdom in any way.
O My slaves! If the first and last of you, all the jinn and all the men among you, possessed the heart of the most evil man among you, that would not decrease My kingdom in any way. O My slaves!
If the first and last of you, all the jinn and all the men among you, were to stand in a single place and ask of Me, I could give to every man what he asks without that decreasing what I have any more than a needle when it enters the sea.
O My slaves! It is your actions for which I call you to account and then repay you in full.
So anyone who finds good should praise Allah and anyone who finds something else should blame none but himself."
Sa'id said, "When Abu Idris related this hadith, he knelt."
Muslim related it and we related it from Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, may Allah have mercy on him, who said, "The people of Syria do not have any hadith nobler than this hadith."
---------------------------------
Such is our God in Islam.
Compare Him to the God in Christianity who "died" for our sins...... and who demands a sacrificial payment from us in order to show forgiveness.
Which God is greater?
The answer is obvious.
Last edited by Flame of Hope; 05-27-2011 at 06:06 AM.
It is pointless to watch other people's houses crumbling when our own house is in need of repair and attention.
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makes you a person, who should wish and pray to be a tenth of a human being of that man who stared in the above mentioned movie. 
died and the number one best seller within days of his demise, became the Bible in Spanish, which up to then was strictly prohibited and what followed soon after the Bible's public release, the well known Exodus. 
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