(The Truth)(About Christianity,Jesus & Trinity)(130 pages)(DO NOT MISS IT!-Slide show

Hello brothers and sisters

Sorry I couldn't have enought time to keep up with all these replies. Please be patient with me.
Also, just as I read as I write. I understand that particular message can not be fit into one word or sentence, so I send a message in many words just as I try to read the core message in many words you guys are sending. I would not be able to keep up with answering every single criticism of a lone sentence or word plucked out of context of the paragraph or the full message I had placed it in.
Also, I don't reply to mocking, if a question is asked in a mocking tone, I will skip it to get to the more human ones to save time.

Now, i will start giving the asked replies in the following messages.

God bless

format_quote Originally Posted by brmm

Hi Amigo,
Everyone is reading this not only me, and I am also learning from you, so pls can u write to me the numbers of the verses from the Bible (From OT & NT) where I can read "I AM WHO AM" ?

BRMM

Brother you are asking me to start quoting verses. Here I have to make some clarifications before I quote anything.
1. I am Catholic not Protestant. This makes a huge difference in how we consider the Bible.
2. Most Protestants consider the Bible almost the same way Muslims consider the Koran. Whey they believe that the Bible is the world of God, they mean that every single word, and comma, and exclamation mark is from God.
3. Catholics believe that the Bible is the written Word of God, not words of God but Word of God. I hope you sense the difference. It is also important to notice that 'written' word I underlined. Written means that the (living) Word of God was written (translated into human language on papers) by imperfect human hands, imperfect human languages, in imperfect human contexts. All these have to be considered in order to understand what God means through the Bible. For more information you can check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church on Sacred Scripture.
4. As a Catholic, I don't consider Christianity a religion of 'the Book' (dead letters compiled together), but a religion of the Living Word of God.

Having said all these, you will not be surprised if I point out that the Church was up and running long before any NT book was written. This should also indicate that the Church is well capable of running where there is no NT or OT books. I guess by now, you realise that the knowledge of the name of God does not depend on books as far as I am concerned. For our Faith, it is the power of the Holy Spirit which grant people the knowledge of God and his name. It is on this power the the Church was running even before the NT, and can run where books are not or people are not capable of reading and writting. All that is required is the Holy Spirit, and human beings.

To save time, if you still need me to quote verses for you, let me know. The point is, if man can't pronounce his deepest/fondest insight in words, how can he pronounce the full name of God? Is God smaller than our knowledge? Hebrew used a four letter word as a 'name' of God, but even then they knew that it was so holy and sacred that because it was not just about pronounciation and saying it, only the high priest was allowed to say it. Recently, the Pope has advised the Catholic Church not to use that name anymore in regular writtings for the same reasons of its sacredness and mystery.

The real place to find the name of God is not in books but in the heart.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Also Amigo, you have not answered my question, I am afraid.

You said Jesus is God, not a god.

Now, when Jesus (God) dies, who ran the universe?

What is death to you?
Tell me your understanding of death, then I will know where to start in answering your questions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

What is death to you? Tell me your understanding of death, then I will know where to start in answering your questions.

umm... I really do not want to be dragged into plays of words.
This is my understanding of your belief:
1. you believe Jesus is God
2. Jesus died in crucifixion
3. God died

So what happened when God died? who ran the universe?
Tell me where if any of my understanding of your belief in incorrect.

By the way, this is the definition of "death" according to dictionary, so you may use it:

death

   [deth] Show IPA
–noun 1. the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. Compare brain death.

2. an instance of this: a death in the family; letters published after his death.

3. the state of being dead: to lie still in death.

EXPAND
—Idioms 12. at death's door, in serious danger of death; gravely ill: Two survivors of the crash are still at death's door.

13. be death on, Informal . a. to be excessively strict about: That publisher is death on sloppily typed manuscripts.

b. to be snobbish about or toward.

c. to be able to cope with easily and successfully: The third baseman is death on pop flies.



14. do to death, a. to kill, especially to murder.

b. to repeat too often, to the point of becoming monotonous and boring: That theme has been done to death.



EXPAND
Origin:
before 900; Middle English deeth, Old English dēath; cognate with German Tod, Gothic dauthus; akin to Old Norse deyja to die1 ; see -th

—Related forms pre·death, noun

—Can be confused:  dearth, death .

—Synonyms
1. decease, demise, passing, departure.


—Antonyms
1. birth, life.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Also, I don't reply to mocking, if a question is asked in a mocking tone, I will skip it to get to the more human ones to save time.

Amigo, I have not seen any mocking in this thread, and I consider the discussion so far is quite civilized. If there is any post that is mocking in nature, please report it, and I will remove it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

umm... I really do not want to be dragged into plays of words.
This is my understanding of your belief:
1. you believe Jesus is God
2. Jesus died in crucifixion
3. God died

So what happened when God died? who ran the universe?
Tell me where if any of my understanding of your belief in incorrect.

By the way, this is the definition of "death" according to dictionary, so you may use it:

death

   [deth] Show IPA
–noun 1. the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. Compare brain death.

2. an instance of this: a death in the family; letters published after his death.

3. the state of being dead: to lie still in death.

EXPAND
—Idioms 12. at death's door, in serious danger of death; gravely ill: Two survivors of the crash are still at death's door.

13. be death on, Informal . a. to be excessively strict about: That publisher is death on sloppily typed manuscripts.

b. to be snobbish about or toward.

c. to be able to cope with easily and successfully: The third baseman is death on pop flies.



14. do to death, a. to kill, especially to murder.

b. to repeat too often, to the point of becoming monotonous and boring: That theme has been done to death.



EXPAND
Origin:
before 900; Middle English deeth, Old English dēath; cognate with German Tod, Gothic dauthus; akin to Old Norse deyja to die1 ; see -th

—Related forms pre·death, noun

—Can be confused:  dearth, death .

—Synonyms
1. decease, demise, passing, departure.


—Antonyms
1. birth, life.

Hello brother Ramadhan

Thanks for the reply. I was expecting an answer in your own word, but we can also use this I guess. For now, let's keep the two words in the antonyms of death at hand: birth and life.

Before we continue, and other question.
What is the universe to you?


I have an other question: What is the universe to you?
Sorry, I should have asked you this question also earlier together with the one on death.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Before we continue, and other question. What is the universe to you? I have an other question: What is the universe to you? Sorry, I should have asked you this question also earlier together with the one on death.

Amigo, I don't understand why you keep asking me the definitions of those words, as I assume english is your native language (considering you are living in canada and all), and if I don't know you any better, I would thinkk you are trolling. But let me take you seriously.
This is the definitions of the universe:

World English Dictionary
universe (ˈjuːnɪˌvɜːs) — n 1. astronomy the aggregate of all existing matter, energy, and space 2. human beings collectively 3. a province or sphere of thought or activity 4. statistics another word for population [C16: from French univers, from Latin ūniversum the whole world, from ūniversus all together, from uni- + vertere to turn]



Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source
Word Origin & History

universe
1589, "the whole world, cosmos," from O.Fr. univers (12c.), from L. universum "the universe," noun use of neut. of adj. universus "all together," lit. "turned into one," from unus "one" (see one) + versus, pp. of vertere "to turn" (see versus). Properly a loan-translation of Gk. to holon "the universe," noun use of neut. of adj. holos "whole" (see safe (adj.))



Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source
Science Dictionary
universe (y 'nə-vûrs') Pronunciation Key
The totality of matter, energy, and space, including the Solar System, the galaxies, and the contents of the space between the galaxies. Current theories of cosmology suggest that the universe is constantly expanding.

So Amigo,

Can you now please answer my question once and for all:

What ran the universe when God died?

Amigo Amigo,

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

4. As a Catholic, I don't consider Christianity a religion of 'the Book' (dead letters compiled together), but a religion of the Living Word of God.

This is 180 degree the opposite in Islam. Our prophet Mohammed PBUH before he died, he said to the Muslim nation clearly in the meaning of: I will die so hold tightly the book of Allah and I ensure for you that you not get strayed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

To save time, if you still need me to quote verses for you, let me know.
The real place to find the name of God is not in books but in the heart.

Yes pls if u have time, otherwise I can read your answer and it very clear to me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Recently, the Pope has advised the Catholic Church not to use that name anymore in regular writtings for the same reasons of its sacredness and mystery.

You know, in Islam, if any one ( and I mean it by any one) came with an idea like this, and he said to the Muslim nation: don't say the sacred name of Allah. We will (((ALL))) consider him ((((directly))) as a dis-believer and not one of us.

I really wish to know your comments about few things like:
1. When the Pope said so, you ( in the Catholice world) received it just normaly and accepted it without any discussion?
2. Since you ( in the Catholice world) consider the Pope as a divine position or at least a very holy person, my question is: we all know that the Pope as a man is a chosen man by other people and some powerful entities in different countries, so HOW the people can choose a man who can give forgiveness to other men?
3. I don't know about u, but for me it sounds very strange that the Pope always a white skin man with blue eyes, what about the African, the Asian, the Spanish & the Arabian Catholics ?!


Last thing to say,
Dear Amigo "if u accept my advise":
You have, for sure, better English than mine. It means if u read the Holy Quran (as a neutral reader) u should get the written message.
You said, Muslims think the Bible is corrupt.
I think u know that Bible from Bibliotek which means in many European countries library, because it is a collection of chosen books by men not by God.Thats y the different Christian groups never agreed about the number of the books both for OT & NT.
What I wanna say here is that, before I have read the Bible, I thought I will never get any thing from it concerning worshiping ONE GOD & Jesus PBUH as a prophet and not GOD, but after I read even some chapters or parts of it, I found that you (The Christian) see only what you wish to see and in the way that you want, and thats why you consider King James translation as the best one, while I consider it now the worse translation for the Bible, because the translators did their best to introduce the idea of Jesus is a god or GOD for the readers.
When God says in your Bible: I AM THE FIRST, I AM THE LAST AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD,
and Jesus said: I worship God and I can do nothing, all my works by God.

“In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,…” Luke 10:21 Jeusus saying clearly: I am (((NOT))) the god of heaven and earth.
It is very strange to me how u understand this in a different way!

I think, u should be more direct to the point and be more clear.

live man - dead man = soul.
dead man = no ability to speak/no ability to pray
live man = ability to speak/ability to pray
Ability to speak - no ability to speak = soul.
Ability to pray - no ability to pray = soul.

Jesus live - Jesus dead (on the Cross as u believe & he was not able to speak/pray)= Jesus's soul.

It means: if Jesus was without a soul, he would not be able to speak/pray.
It means: Jesus's soul was the one who spoke to people and worshiped GOD.
It means : There is no divinity & humanity statuses for Jesus.
It means : There is Trinity.
It means : There is no Salvation.
It means : Jesus was a man, neither a god nor GOD, and Jesus never said so.
It means : There is ONE GOD and Jesus was his prophet.


Since you are a good reader, I guess u have heard about Brother Ahmed Deedat. He was the best who make debates with Christian.
I invite u to see his debate about Crucifixion in the link below (it is a good one, do not miss it):
youtube.com/watch?v=BbMzCkHOBhE

Everyone of us has a time to leave, but before your time comes, be sure to save your self from the eternal staying in Hell, by facing your Lord believing in your heart that He is truly the only one, but the problem is : who knows his time ?!
We, Muslims, believe that everyone of us when he die, two angels will come directly and ask us, the first question will be: WHO IS YOUR GOD? WE SHOULD "ALLAH".

Quran 20:14"Verily, I am Allah: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise."

Q04:48"Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin"

Have a nice day.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

I had hoped to get answers from the Koran so I can answer you in your own language.

I don't understand why you need references from the Qur'an to explain your own belief?
When I explain my belief, I don't go asking people to tell me about what the bible says.

You are grasping on strawman.

Can you please just tell me and explain:

When God died, what happened to and who ran the universe?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

And in order to do this I have to make sure we are still together.

We don't need to be on the same page, I only need to you to explain your answer. If I don't understand about your answer, I will ask you again.

I am waiting, Amigo.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings and peace be with you brmm,

Instead of searching for our differences and striving to find faults in other religions, I believe we should try and find ways to work together. We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers, despite all our differences.

Abraham, Moses and Jesus are central to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and I believe God brings us together in other ways too.

In 2009 I had the privilege to go to Jerusalem, and stand by the Wailing Wall, which is a sacred place to the Jews. But when you walk back fifty paces and look above the wall, you see the golden dome of ‘The Dome of the Rock Mosque, and the Al Aqsa sacred to Islam. Most of the Christian holy places are within the Muslim quarters of Jerusalem, this in turn is surrounded by the Jews.

It is said in Judaism and Christianity, that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son in the region of Mount Moriah. It is also said that God commanded Solomon to build the Temple Mount on Mount Moriah, this is a huge structure, a small part of it is what we know as the Wailing Wall, or Western Wall. On top of the Temple Mount, God commanded Solomon to build a Temple, that will house ‘The Ark of the Covenant’ better known for the Ten Commandments. Jesus prayed on the Temple Mount, and when he healed people he sent them to the Temple to give thanks.

The prophet pbuh ascended to heaven in the region of Mount Moriah, in Jerusalem, on the spot were Abraham was said to have given his son as a sacrifice. It is also were Solomon was commanded to build the Temple to house the Ark of the Covenant of God, known as the Ten Commandments. It is were Jesus worshiped, The Temple was destroyed and rebuilt, then destroyed again and Two Mosques were built on top of the Temple Mount, The Dome of the Rock is built on were Solomon’s Temple once stood. The Dome is said to be the place where the prophet pbuh, ascended up to heaven on his winged horse.

It seems that God has linked Judaism, Christianity and Islam together on this one sacred place.

But why has God brought all these three religions together in so many ways?

In the spirit of searching for One God

Eric

Hello Eric, Assalam Alaikom
You have a nice message and nice words. Actually Allah have ordered us to call for His way in the right way. If I, as a Muslim, believe that I have the truth with me, I mean the right belief, then how the others will know it if I did not speak up ? My duty is to speak, and their right is to accept or not.

Allah says in the Holy Quran,
16:125"Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way."

and Allah says:
18:29 "And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve",... "

Muslims say: Mohammed, Jesus & Moses PBUThem are brothers (since they were chosen prophets of God).
Christian say: Mohammed is a false prophet.
Jews say: Jesus & Mohammed are false prophets.
So, who is the fair side here ?
U know, if the Christian world, acknowledge Mohammed as a "prophet" then no one can be Christian. Because if Jesus was a prophet from God, then the people should follow and believe the prophet that came after him, which is Mohammed. And even if we need to go by Jesus was god, then Mohammed will be also the messenger and should be followed by the people. Both ways people <MUST> follow Mohammed.
To get rid of this huge problem, Christian say: Mohammed is a false prophet.

===========================
Muslims believe that prophet Ishmael was the oldest son for prophet Ibrahim from Hajar, and prophet Isaac was the youngest son from Sara, and the story of Ibrahim were he got the order to slaughter his son Ishmael not Isaac, happened exactly in Mecca, where we have the Kaaba mosque. We have it in the Holy Quran also.
===========================

About the story of prophet Solomon's Temple on Mount Moriah, I do not think I believe it, this is what the Jews say.
I am sure you have read in the Bible about the followers of Jesus, the Samaritans, who believed in him and took his message.
The good news is that we still have less than 1000 of them live together in a closed society in Israel (Palestine) in a city called Hebron.
The bad news (but not for us as Muslims) is that those people:
1) Pray like Muslims.
2) accept Mohammed as the last prophet. They are even have an old written document, they claim the prophet Mohammed gave it to them, that no Muslim should attack them because they are Jesus's believers.
3) They do not agree about the story of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem (Al Kods) and they believe that the Holy Mount, they call it Gerizim, was the place for that Temple and it is still there in their area and they are still doing their religious celebrations on it until today.(I will attach videos for this).
4) they accept only the first 5 parts of the Torah and they do not accept neither the Christian Cross nor the Jewish star.
5) They do not consider Jerusalem as a holy city, because it is not mentioned in the Torah, while Gerizim Mount have mentioned 13 times as they say.
6) The religious Jews in Israel do not like them and they are straggling to get their rights as citizens.

Video 1, see the prays of the Samaritans (second 8)
youtube.com/watch?v=Ui8JguEffCA&feature=related

Video 2, the Samaritans claim over the Holy mount, they call it Gerizim.
youtube.com/watch?v=7psUMVdcywU&feature=related


Judges 9:7 When Jotham was told about this, he climbed up on the ...
When Jotham was told about this, he climbed up on the top of Mount Gerizim and shouted
to them, "Listen to me, citizens of Shechem, so that God may listen to ...

Deuteronomy 27:12 When you have crossed the Jordan, these tribes ...
When you have crossed the Jordan, these tribes shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless
the people: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin. ...

Deuteronomy 11:29 When the LORD your God has brought you into the ...
When the LORD your God has brought you into the land you are entering to possess,
you are to proclaim on Mount Gerizim the blessings, and on Mount Ebal the ...

Joshua 8:33 All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their ...
... Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of
Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he ...

John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews ...
... So tell me, why is it that you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place of worship,
while we Samaritans claim it is here at Mount Gerizim, where our ...

I wish that was useful

BRMM

format_quote Originally Posted by brmm

It means : There is no divinity & humanity statuses for Jesus.
It means : There is Trinity.
It means : There is no Salvation.

Sorry, I should correct myself here. I can edit my threads until now
It means: There is NO trinity.

I am sorry, I should correct myself again.
I said:
===========================
Muslims believe that prophet Ishmael was the oldest son for prophet Ibrahim from Hajar, and prophet Isaac was the youngest son from Sara, and the story of Ibrahim were he got the order to slaughter his son Ishmael not Isaac, happened exactly in Mecca, where we have the Kaaba mosque. We have it in the Holy Quran also.
===========================
The place where Ibrahim was going to slaughter his son Ismael (PBUthem) is in Mecca but in the place where the Muslims do stoning during the Pilgrimage season every year.
We stone 3 places, and the story behind is that they are the places where the Satan have talked to Ibrahim, Hajar & Ismael to convenes them not to slaughter Ismael, but all of them stoned him.

The place of the Main mosque in Mecca is were Hajar prayed for Allah to give water for her baby, prophet Ismael, so Allah gave her Zamzam well, which gives water till our day to Millions of Muslims.


BRMM

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

I don't understand why you need references from the Qur'an to explain your own belief?
When I explain my belief, I don't go asking people to tell me about what the bible says.

You are grasping on strawman.

Can you please just tell me and explain:

When God died, what happened to and who ran the universe?



We don't need to be on the same page, I only need to you to explain your answer. If I don't understand about your answer, I will ask you again.

I am waiting, Amigo.

How can answer you on such an important question without making sure you understand the words and vocabularly I am using. I mentioned the Koran because you said, it got all the answers.
Well, I have already started answering you. Did you notice the questions I asked you about where people go when they die? wether they are still in the universe or not? etc?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

How can answer you on such an important question without making sure you understand the words and vocabularly I am using. I mentioned the Koran because you said, it got all the answers. Well, I have already started answering you. Did you notice the questions I asked you about where people go when they die? wether they are still in the universe or not? etc?

No, you have not answered me in the slightest yet.
In fact, I asked you one simple question, and you replied with four questions.

Please just answer me, or I will consider you a troll, and we don't like troll very much in here

So if I don't give you the answer you want or the way you want it I am a troll?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

So if I don't give you the answer you want or the way you want it I am a troll?

You have not even answered the question.

Please do not try so hard to become a troll.