The original sin ????

**nour elhoda** · 07-08-2011

The original sin

One of essence of the christian dogmas is the believe in the idea of " the original sin & the tonement" . Adam disobeid God by eating from the forbidden tree. The sin of Adam ingerited by all of his children, all human being are born sinful. According to this idea, God's justice requires a price to be paid for every sin ; and the only thing that can wipe out sin is the shedding of blood .
As ST. Paul puts it :
" Without the shedding of blood there is no remission" ------( Hebrews 9:22)
But this blood must be perfect , sinless & incorrupt blood
" As the original sin being directed, was infinite proportion, it demanded infinite recompense"
So Jesus Christ , the Son of God who had come from heaven , shed his blood, suffered indescribable agony , and died to pay the penalty for the sins of men.
Because Jesus was infinite God , he alone could pay the infinite price of Sin.
According to this Dogma noone can be saved from the eternal Hell unless he\she accepts Jeus christ as his redeemer.

The dogma is divided into 3 parts:
1- The original sin
2- God's justice requires blood to be paid as a penality for sins
3- The belief that Jesus has paid the price for the sin by his death on the cross, & that salvation is only for those who believe in this vicarious sacrifice .
As for the words of ST. Paul :
" As by the disobedience of one ( Adam) , many were made sinners , so also by the obedience of one ( Christ) many shall be made just" Rom " 5:18,19

1) The idea of the ingerited sin:
It has no support in th ewords of Jesus or the prophets who came beofre him. All prophets came with the dogma that everyman is accountable for his\her own actions; the children will not be punished for the sin of their father.
The dogma of the original sin states that all chidler are born sinners, while Jesus himself regarded children as being innocent & pure , & not born in sin:

" suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God .
Verily , I say unto you whosoever , shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child , he shall not enter there in"
( Mark 10:14,15)

As for islam , it condemns this dogma of the oroginal sin .Sin is not ingerited , but it is something which each person acuires by himself by doing what he shouldnot do.
Man according to islam is born with the capability & inclination to do evil as well as to do good. When man grow up being able to distinguish between right & wrong , he is totally free to be a prey of temptation & make something wrong , or resist & live in harmoney with the will of God.

Rationally speaking, it would be the height of injustice to condemn the entire human race for a sin commited thousands of years ago by the first parents. Justice views sin as a wilful transgression of the law of God or the law of right & wrong, and the blame for it lies on the doer of the sin , and not on his children , every man has his own mind , has the free choice to be good or bad , so no one is to be blamed for other's faults.

wait for more ((:

**Amigo** · 07-17-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

It's a simple question. If God does not need us, then why did he create us. For purpose do we exist?

The classic answering in orthodox Christianity is "to glorify and praise God;" this is what all of creation does including stars, moons, planets, rocks, and trees. God has no need of this from us or any of his creation, but he nonetheless created us and all of creation for this purpose.

I was talking about his answers to the question, not the questions.
As for me, I am familiar with that classic answer. However, that answer is given by the believer not by God to be precise. It means more like "Thanksgiving" and it is more to the question "What should do we do with our lives?" The believer is not wrong as he speaks from the Creature's point of view, however, God would answer from the Creator's point of view, and his answer is different. Saying that God created us to praise Him can sound like God is an egomaniac, hungry for praise and glory. Seeing then God as a slave-driver would not be wrong, nor the plain refusal to believe in such 'a' God.

peace

**M.I.A.** · 07-17-2011

Originally Posted by Amigo

I am not understanding what you are trying to say. Could you please clarify further? Thanks.

peace

your a muslim,
if you are a good or bad muslim is something that is ever changing.. we walk through this place worried about how allah swt will judge us.
but along the way we meet people very different from ourselves (even at our lowest) be it for a moment, in passing or for a lifetime.

you wont know who they are but if they see something of you that they like, they might want to learn about who you are.

so that is the responsibility of a muslim, how you reciprocate and if you take advantage (for yourself) or try to help(for others).

you can relate that last sentence to the quran, about those that would trade knowledge for this life..paraphrased

..its an ego killer for sure and has put proper fear of allah swt into me, even though my interpretation may be completely wrong.

also help is not always monetary.

allah swt will judge each of us, so understand that its always a personal test.
depends on if you believe in an afterlife or not.

want this life or the next?

obtain knowledge,

want this life or the next?

obtain money,

want this life or the next?

...the list goes on.
and so i would assume, do the tests.

edit*
there is a story that made me believe that there is more than this life,
that of the prophet muhammed pbuh

his fondness for horses and his act to rectify this in the cause of god.
hope somebody narrates it better.

**Amigo** · 07-17-2011

Originally Posted by M.I.A.

your a muslim,
if you are a good or bad muslim is something that is ever changing.. we walk through this place worried about how allah swt will judge us.
but along the way we meet people very different from ourselves (even at our lowest) be it for a moment, in passing or for a lifetime.

you wont know who they are but if they see something of you that they like, they might want to learn about who you are.

so that is the responsibility of a muslim, how you reciprocate and if you take advantage (for yourself) or try to help(for others).

you can relate that last sentence to the quran, about those that would trade knowledge for this life..paraphrased

..its an ego killer for sure and has put proper fear of allah swt into me, even though my interpretation may be completely wrong.

also help is not always monetary.

allah swt will judge each of us, so understand that its always a personal test.
depends on if you believe in an afterlife or not.

want this life or the next?

obtain knowledge,

want this life or the next?

obtain money,

want this life or the next?

...the list goes on.
and so i would assume, do the tests.

Oh, I am not muslim, but I think I understand what you are trying to say, that we should not focus on this world but the next world/life.

**siam** · 07-18-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

... But that we also have free will to make the decision to submit or not submit to God's will in our lives. This submission is one of the ways in which we would glorify God at a higher level than those elements of creation that are subject merely to the laws of nature and have no free will to chose to do what God desires, but do so by their nature rather than their free choice.

No one can judge the degree of submission to God except God---therefore, perhaps the best way to understand this would be that God has created us with an inherent capacity to submit to him, those creations that do not possess free-will do so to their full capacity---those creations that have free-will choose their degree of submission (to an extent). However, in order for God to have created all creation with an inherent capacity for submission, their needs to be "goodness"--in creations without free-will this is observed in the harmony and balance of their creation. In human beings, this comes about through a desire for altruism (as opposed to egoism) represented by humility, charity, compassion...etc

If one thinks that the "laws of nature" are apart from the will of God, it would be foolish for it is God that created the "laws of nature". Thus when the earth rotates around the sun, it is not merely submitting to the "laws of nature"---it is also submitting to the will of God---in doing so, planet earth is following the inherent "nature" of its own creation. Since this inherent nature is to fully submit to God's will, in balance and harmony, one can comprehend its "goodness". For human beings to achieve balance and harmony, we must also find our inherent "goodness" which is submission to God's will. When we strengthen the inherent goodness in our natures through submission to God's will, we will be able to create balance and harmony which leads to peace and tranquility which is the hallmark of "Paradise." (using the term here as an abstract/concept---not any particular place)

On the other hand, human beings can follow a different path, ---one we are currently on---which leads to oppression, injustice, imbalance and discord.....the path of the ego. To follow this path we must go against our inherent "natures"---that is why following this path always leads to dissatisfaction and unfullfilment. The more we pursue egoism, the more lacking we feel and to fill the hole, we pursue egoism with more vigor.....we end up oppressing ourselves instead of liberating the "self". Thus, the path of submission to God's will is actually the path of liberation......we find God(Spirituality) when we liberate the "self" from oppressive egoism. That is how human beings throughout time and geography, irrespective of their religious label, have found God/Spirituality.

Submission to God's will is not simply some belief in an arbrary convoluted doctrine/dogma---it is an action. Submission is not passivity---it is activity.....look at the universe, it is filled with activity.....For us humans, the path of Submission requires participation and effort. We must do...not just think. God's will = Right belief that leads to right intentions that promote right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.

**siam** · 07-18-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

It's a simple question. If God does not need us, then why did he create us. For purpose do we exist?

The classic answering in orthodox Christianity is "to glorify and praise God;" this is what all of creation does including stars, moons, planets, rocks, and trees. God has no need of this from us or any of his creation, but he nonetheless created us and all of creation for this purpose.

I agree.

An interesting question nonetheless----If God has no needs or desires, why create? Perhaps it has to do with Gods attributes of Compassion and Mercy?---It is only speculation.......perhaps "creation" is a result of the vastness of his compassion and mercy.....?

Which is why "creation" is inherently good......ofcourse, this brings up the question----if creation is inherently good---from where does evil arise.....?

**FS123** · 07-18-2011

According to Quran, God is the creator, it is one of His attributes -- simple as that. Compassion and Mercy comes next on how he deals with His creation. Purpose for us is to worship with our own freewill, that why he put us above angels. Angels doesn't have freewill, but we have. Even we do less than angels but God puts us above angels because when do worship God, we do it by our own freewill. Dr Lang goes into detail about this http://www.islamicbulletin.com/free_...angels_ask.pdf

*****

The opening scene is heaven as God informs the angels that He is about
to place man on earth. Adam, the first man, has not yet appeared. From the
verses that follow, it is clear that at this point in the story Adam is free of
any wrongdoing. Nevertheless, God plans to place him (and his descen*
dants [6:165; 27:62; 35:39]) on earth in the role of vicegerent or vicar (khal*
ifah). There is no insinuation here that earthly life is to serve as a punish*
ment. The word khalifah means "a vicar," "a delegate," "a representative,"
"a person authorized to act for others." Therefore, it appears that man is
meant to represent and act on behalf of God in some sense.

The angels' reply is both fascinating and disturbing. In essence it asks,
"Why create and place on earth one who has it within his nature to corrupt
and commit terrible crimes? Why create this being, who will be the cause
and recipient of great suffering?" I t is obvious that the angels are referring
here to the very nature of mankind, since Adam, in the Qur'an, turns out
to be one of God's elect and not guilty of any major crime. The question
is made all the more significant when we consider who and from where it
comes.

When we think of angels, we imagine peaceful, pure, and holy creatures
in perfect and joyous submission to God.... This is what gives the
angels' question such force, for it asks: "Why create this patently corrupt and
flawed being when it is within Your power to create us?" Thus they say:
"While we celebrate your praises and glorify your holiness?" Their question
is given further amplification by the fact that it originates in heaven, for what
possible purpose could be served by placing man in an environment where
he could exercise freely his worst criminal inclinations? All of these consid*
erations culminate in the obvious objection: Why not place man with a suit*
able nature in heaven from the start? We are not even a single verse into the
story of man and we have already confronted our (the atheists') main com*
plaint. And, it is put in the mouths of the angels!

The verse ends not with an explanation, but a reminder of God's
superior knowledge, and hence, the implication that man's earthly life is
part of a grand design. Many western scholars have remarked that the
statement, "I know what you do not know," merely dismisses the angel's
question. However, as the sequence of passages will show, this is not the
case at all.

We move now to verse thirty-one, where we fmd that the Qur ' an con*
tinues to explore the angels' question.

And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He
placed them before the angels, and said, "Tell me their
names if you are right." (2:31)

Clearly, the angels' question is being addressed in this verse. Adam's
capacities for learning and acquiring knowledge, his ability to be taught, are
the focus of this initial response. The next verse demonstrates the angels'
inferiority in this respect. Special emphasis is placed on man's ability to
name, to represent by verbal symbols, "all things" that enter his conscious
mind: all his thoughts, fears, and hopes, in short, all that he c an perceive or
conceive. This allows man to communicate his experience and knowledge
on a relatively high level, as compared to the other creatures about him, and
gives all human learning a preeminent cumulative quality. In several places
in the Qur'an, this gift to mankind is singled out as one of the greatest boun*
ties bestowed on him by God.

They said: Glory to you: we have no knowledge except
what You taught us, in truth it is you who are the
Knowing, the Wise. (2:32)

In this verse, the angels plead their inability to perform such a task, for,
as they plainly state, it would demand a knowledge and wisdom beyond
their capacity. They maintain that its performance would, of course, be easy
for God, since His knowledge and wisdom is supreme, but that the same
could not be expected of them. In the next passage, we discover that Adam
possesses the level of intelligence necessary to accomplish the task and
hence, though his knowledge and wisdom are less than God's, it is yet
greater than the angels.

He said: "0 Adam! Tell them their names." When he had
told them their names, God said: "Did I not tell you that I
know what is unseen in the heavens and the earth and I
know what you reveal and conceal?" (2:33)

Here we have an emphatic statement that man's greater intellect figures
into an answer to the angels' question. We are informed that God takes all
into account, in particular, all aspects of the human personality: man's
potential for evil, which the angels' question "reveals," and his comple*
mentary and related capacity for moral and intellectual growth, which their
question "conceals." To drive home this point, the next verse has the angels
demonstrate their inferiority to Adam and shows that man's more complex
personality makes him a potentially superior being.

And behold, We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam"
and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was
proud: he was of the rejecters. (2:34)

We also fmd in this verse the birth of sin and temptation. The Qur'an
later informs us that Iblis (Satan) is of the j inn (18:50), a being created of a
smokeless fire (55:15) and who is insulted at the suggestion that he should
humble himself before a creature made of "putrid clay" (7:12; 17:61; 38:76).
Satan is portrayed as possessing a fiery, consuming, and destructive nature.
He allows his passions to explode out of control and initiates a pernicious
rampage. We are often told that money is at the root of all evil, but here the
lesson appears to be that pride and self-centeredness is at its core. Indeed,
many terrible wrongs are committed for no apparent material motive.

And we said: "0 Adam! Dwell you and your spouse in the
garden and eat freely there of what you wish, but come not
near this tree for you will be among the wrongdoers."
(2:35)

Thus the famous and fateful command. Yet, the tone of it seems curi*
ously restrained. There is no suggestion that the tree is in any way special;
it almost seems as if it were picked at random. Satan will later tempt Adam
with the promise of eternal life and "a kingdom that never decays"
(20:121), but this turns out to be a complete fabrication on his part. There
is not the slightest hint that God is somehow threatened at the prospect of
Adam and his spouse violating the command; instead, He voices concern
for them, because then "they will be among the wrongdoers."

This is probably an appropriate place to reflect on what we have
learned so far. We saw how God originally intended for man to have an
earthly life. We then observed a period of preparation during which man is
"taught" to use his intellectual gifts. Now, Adam and his spouse are pre*
sented a choice, of apparently no great consequence, except for the fact that
it is made to be a moral choice. I t thus seems that man has gradually
become -- or is about to become -- a moral being.

**Grace Seeker** · 07-18-2011

Siam, some good stuff. It seems that we think similarly on a lot of things, and I especially appreciate some of the new ways you bring to expressing it. Even when I said...

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

This submission is one of the ways in which we would glorify God at a higher level than those elements of creation that are subject merely to the laws of nature and have no free will to chose to do what God desires, but do so by their nature rather than their free choice.

...I don't think I was saying anything different than you've said above. God is the author of those laws of nature and so when trees do their part in turning sunlight & chlorophyll into sugar and soak up water from the ground to respirate into the air and in the process of doing both "breathe" in CO2 and "breath" out O2, it is all a part of submitting to God's design which glorifies him. So, I hope you didn't hear me imply that somehow creation doesn't submit to the will of God by referring to laws of nature. Laws of nature, be it gravity or weather patterns or methods of reproduction, are all a part of God's design.

I like the idea that God created us with an inherent capacity to submit to him. I too would argue that such a capacity is originally a part of our very creation. As a Christian I see this asserted particularly in the scriptural affirmation that we were created in the image of God, though I understand such a passage probably doesn't speak to you in the same way that it does to me. And then you get to the $64,000 question:

Originally Posted by siam

ofcourse, this brings up the question----if creation is inherently good---from where does evil arise.....?

How does Islam try to respond to this?

Capacity for submission is not the same thing as actual submission. Similarly I would argue that capacity for goodness is not the same thing as goodness. Could it be that empty capacity, like all other vaccums seeks to be filled with something? Of course that still doesn't answer why we would choose anti-God rather than God.

FS123, I also concur with you since when we worship God we do so out of our own freewill, not because we are simply wired that way, for this reason God puts us above angels. But then we have to ask, if Satan was once an angel (I think I remember that as something held in common by both Christianity and Islam) then how/why could he have rebelled against God's will?

**FS123** · 07-18-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

FS123, I also concur with you since when we worship God we do so out of our own freewill, not because we are simply wired that way, for this reason God puts us above angels. But then we have to ask, if Satan was once an angel (I think I remember that as something held in common by both Christianity and Islam) then how/why could he have rebelled against God's will?

Satan was not once angel in Islam. Read the passage I quoted it gives the whole background.

We also fmd in this verse the birth of sin and temptation. The Qur'an
later informs us that Iblis (Satan) is of the j inn (18:50), a being created of a
smokeless fire (55:15) and who is insulted at the suggestion that he should
humble himself before a creature made of "putrid clay" (7:12; 17:61; 38:76).
Satan is portrayed as possessing a fiery, consuming, and destructive nature.
He allows his passions to explode out of control and initiates a pernicious
rampage. We are often told that money is at the root of all evil, but here the
lesson appears to be that pride and self-centeredness is at its core. Indeed,
many terrible wrongs are committed for no apparent material motive.

**siam** · 07-18-2011

FS
Thankyou for the post---Dr Lang expresses well some things that have crossed my mind also.

**Pygoscelis** · 07-19-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Is it crazy to assert that what God has done is not act to condemn, but to save?

I find that crazy. The thing about Jesus the saviour is that to have a saviour you need to have something to be saved from, so hell is necesary, and us being declared deserving of hell is necesary and that is to condemn. It is condemnation along with an escape, but this is also the case when a mugger demands "your money or your life". All you have to do is give him your money and you are saved. Nevermind that he is the one threatening you in the first place.

**siam** · 07-19-2011

From where does evil arise?---the answer seems obvious---from human egoism......

But IMO, the question itself is perhaps a foolish one.
First though, what is evil?---for example, is death evil?, the death of a loved one can cause pain, is pain evil? Buddha and Lao Tzu might say that these are simply perceptions caused by our attachment to things....that changing these perceptions of loss can free us from such pain......so, I feel that perhaps "evil" may be an incorrect label to use for phenomenon of death and birth, for decay and growth, for destruction and renewal caused by the natural cycles. This then leaves us to attach this label to deliberate action by human beings to cause harm.

Epictetus says that bad deeds are a result of the perpetrators adopting unsound beliefs---in other words, wrong beliefs promote wrong intentions that lead to wrong actions that result in harm. This means that "evil" is not a thing or entity that "arises" as the question implies----it is a consequence of wrong belief. The root of wrong belief is egoic desire. (the story of Iblis in the Quran highlights this). The other problem with the question is that it asks "from where"....there can be no power other than God. To suppose that a natural inclination given by God's will can be overcome by a power (supposedly) superior is problematic. Therefore, it cannot be that human will can overcome the inherent goodness within all creation that inclines creation to submit to God's will.

Yet, humans cause harm....this is obvious....to say it is because of ego is an inadequate answer.....for it is God who created us.....and so the Angels ask---why create such a creature? ----Perhaps there is another way to look at this....? The Quran uses an interesting word---Kaffir---which has the meaning of "one who covers up....with dirt". That is, right belief---which is our natural inclination, must be covered up (with dirt) in order for human beings to commit harm/evil. Yet, this also means that this natural inclination to goodness is not eliminated, only covered up---and therefore exists in all of us. Repentence is the action of removing the dirt covering it up. That is why God provides sustenance to all of us both good and bad---because if we so choose, all of us, even the bad among us, have the capacity for repentence.

But what about the question the Angels asked?---Angels don't have free-will and so are able to do God's will perfectly. But humans have both intelligence and free-will. Could it be that though the Angels can execute God's commands perfectly---to the letter----they cannot go beyond? Perhaps the combination of free-will and intelligence means that we humans have the ability not just to do God's will, but perhaps have the capacity to use our imaginations to accomplish much more.....that is, not just the letter, but the spirit......? Could this potential in us be the reason we were created? such a perspective opens up interesting possibilities----that perhaps creating "Paradise" on earth is an achievable goal, with God's help, because we have the potential to do so if we so desired....? ...and that is perhaps why we have been created with desires----because without this wanting for better, we cannot accomplish the goal....

But desires can go both ways---egoic desires and altruistic desires----that is why RIGHT belief is so important. Right belief promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations----any belief that stops at rhetoric and dogma is insufficient.....

**Grace Seeker** · 07-19-2011

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I find that crazy. The thing about Jesus the saviour is that to have a saviour you need to have something to be saved from, so hell is necesary, and us being declared deserving of hell is necesary and that is to condemn. It is condemnation along with an escape, but this is also the case when a mugger demands "your money or your life". All you have to do is give him your money and you are saved. Nevermind that he is the one threatening you in the first place.

Pygoscelis, from the Christian view, one is not being cast into hell if one rejects Christ. We believe that already mankind has fallen into a hole so deep he cannot extricate himself. God not only acts to save, but himself enters the hole in order to both show and provide a way out. There is no mugger. They is only the result of our own missteps. And salvation is to escape that condition in which we already live. Now, admittedly some have been in the hole long enough like fleas trained not to jump they have learned to live with the situation and feel no need for anything beyond the present experience. Be that as it may. They are not condemned for not following Christ to a new realm. But it remains that if they do not follow Christ's lead they, not God, have determined that they shall not be saved to something else.

**Grace Seeker** · 07-19-2011

Originally Posted by FS123

Satan was not once angel in Islam. Read the passage I quoted it gives the whole background.

The passage you quoted doesn't quite give the "whole" background. I was previously also aware of this verse:

[7:11] We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Iblees (Satan); he was not with the prostrators.

Based on this it seemed to me that Satan was indeed one of the angeles.

Was he first an angel and then turned into a jinn or vice versa? Why does the Qur'an say he is an angel in one verse and a jinn in another?
(I should note, this is just a curiousity, not important at all to our overall discussion.)

**Predator** · 07-19-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

The passage you quoted doesn't quite give the "whole" background. I was previously also aware of this verse:

[7:11] We created you, then we shaped you, then we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Iblees (Satan); he was not with the prostrators.

Based on this it seemed to me that Satan was indeed one of the angeles.

Was he first an angel and then turned into a jinn or vice versa? Why does the Qur'an say he is an angel in one verse and a jinn in another?
(I should note, this is just a curiousity, not important at all to our overall discussion.)

Iblis was a jinn and not an angel . This has been addressed already here

Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an

**M.I.A.** · 07-19-2011

Originally Posted by siam

From where does evil arise?---the answer seems obvious---from human egoism......

But IMO, the question itself is perhaps a foolish one.
First though, what is evil?---for example, is death evil?, the death of a loved one can cause pain, is pain evil? Buddha and Lao Tzu might say that these are simply perceptions caused by our attachment to things....that changing these perceptions of loss can free us from such pain......so, I feel that perhaps "evil" may be an incorrect label to use for phenomenon of death and birth, for decay and growth, for destruction and renewal caused by the natural cycles. This then leaves us to attach this label to deliberate action by human beings to cause harm.

Epictetus says that bad deeds are a result of the perpetrators adopting unsound beliefs---in other words, wrong beliefs promote wrong intentions that lead to wrong actions that result in harm. This means that "evil" is not a thing or entity that "arises" as the question implies----it is a consequence of wrong belief. The root of wrong belief is egoic desire. (the story of Iblis in the Quran highlights this). The other problem with the question is that it asks "from where"....there can be no power other than God. To suppose that a natural inclination given by God's will can be overcome by a power (supposedly) superior is problematic. Therefore, it cannot be that human will can overcome the inherent goodness within all creation that inclines creation to submit to God's will.

Yet, humans cause harm....this is obvious....to say it is because of ego is an inadequate answer.....for it is God who created us.....and so the Angels ask---why create such a creature? ----Perhaps there is another way to look at this....? The Quran uses an interesting word---Kaffir---which has the meaning of "one who covers up....with dirt". That is, right belief---which is our natural inclination, must be covered up (with dirt) in order for human beings to commit harm/evil. Yet, this also means that this natural inclination to goodness is not eliminated, only covered up---and therefore exists in all of us. Repentence is the action of removing the dirt covering it up. That is why God provides sustenance to all of us both good and bad---because if we so choose, all of us, even the bad among us, have the capacity for repentence.

But what about the question the Angels asked?---Angels don't have free-will and so are able to do God's will perfectly. But humans have both intelligence and free-will. Could it be that though the Angels can execute God's commands perfectly---to the letter----they cannot go beyond? Perhaps the combination of free-will and intelligence means that we humans have the ability not just to do God's will, but perhaps have the capacity to use our imaginations to accomplish much more.....that is, not just the letter, but the spirit......? Could this potential in us be the reason we were created? such a perspective opens up interesting possibilities----that perhaps creating "Paradise" on earth is an achievable goal, with God's help, because we have the potential to do so if we so desired....? ...and that is perhaps why we have been created with desires----because without this wanting for better, we cannot accomplish the goal....

But desires can go both ways---egoic desires and altruistic desires----that is why RIGHT belief is so important. Right belief promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations----any belief that stops at rhetoric and dogma is insufficient.....

i dont think attachment is a bad thing, to care for a person and to empathize sincerely with a person is something that when used as a foundation for relationship is immense.
in life and death.

its like in the workplace i think we are all pretending, it becomes easy easy to act like a muslim, reducing frustration and being able to see people are nice underneath.

when i go home i forget im a muslim and things become more real..its a strange struggle

i dont know how else to explain it??

**siam** · 07-20-2011

"i dont think attachment is a bad thing"---I agree---that is why we have such desire....attachment that comes from compassion and mercy are necessary for human beings for we are social in nature. However, attachment/desire can also be for selfish/egoic purposes---this type of attachment/desire can become excessive.

ibn Siraj (1114 CE ?) said "scatter your good deeds all around. Not caring wether they fall on those near or far away. Just as the rain never cares where the clouds pour it out, wether on fertile ground or on rocks." --Ofcourse, since we all want others to reciprocrate---its not as easy as it sounds....

**siam** · 07-20-2011

"i dont think attachment is a bad thing"---I agree---that is why we have such desire....attachment that comes from compassion and mercy are necessary for human beings for we are social in nature. However, attachment/desire can also be for selfish/egoic purposes---this type of attachment/desire can become excessive.

ibn Siraj (1114 CE ?) said "scatter your good deeds all around. Not caring wether they fall on those near or far away. Just as the rain never cares where the clouds pour it out, wether on fertile ground or on rocks." --Ofcourse, since we all want others to reciprocrate---its not as easy as it sounds....

**siam** · 07-20-2011

God created us---he gave us an intellect---we can use our intelligence and reason to arrive at right belief---and if this alone was all that was required of us---Why did he give us bodies? We use our bodies as vehicles to interact with our environment---and "to do". Activity requires the use of our body. That is why Right belief must create a transformative force that moves it from the intellectual realm to that of right action.

**Grace Seeker** · 07-20-2011

Originally Posted by Airforce

Iblis was a jinn and not an angel . This has been addressed already here

Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an

Quite seriously I appreciate the link. I read it and can see what was being said. But I also want to make a personal comment: after reading that discussion, I don't ever want to hear again that anyone has objections to my long and involved posts that turn on context and nuances of a word in the original languages rather than English.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

**Amigo** · 07-20-2011

Originally Posted by siam

From where does evil arise?---the answer seems obvious---from human egoism...... But IMO, the question itself is perhaps a foolish one.

I agree with your answer. The question is not at all foolish. Irs answer makes enormous difference in how people and philosophies understand life and its meaning.
God is all good and the source of all goodness.
Evil is that which the creatures is the true source.
In fact the difference between good and evil is the difference between their sources. Good from God. Evil from the creatures.
This is not to mean that the creatures are bad, but that when they resist and/or act against divine will, they resist goodness itself, and by doing so, they originate evil in that very act.

I like this quote from St. Augustine when he was discussing original sin.

When, therefore, man lives according to man, not according to God, he is like the devil. Because not even an angel might live according to an angel, but only according to God, if he was to abide in the truth, and speak God's truth and not his own lie... When, then, a man lives according to the truth, he lives not according to himself, but according to God... When, therefore, man lives according to himself—that is, according to man, not according to God—assuredly he lives according to a lie; not that man himself is a lie, for God is his author and creator, who is certainly not the author and creator of a lie, but because man was made upright, that he might not live according to himself, but according to Him that made him—in other words, that he might do His will and not his own; and not to live as he was made to live, that is a lie.