The original sin ????

[siam]

I agree with your answer. The question is not at all foolish. Irs answer makes enormous difference in how people and philosophies understand life and its meaning.
God is all good and the source of all goodness.
Evil is that which the creatures is the true source.
In fact the difference between good and evil is the difference between their sources. Good from God. Evil from the creatures.
This is not to mean that the creatures are bad, but that when they resist and/or act against divine will, they resist goodness itself, and by doing so, they originate evil in that very act.

I like this quote from St. Augustine when he was discussing original sin.

I agree generally with what you say but disagree with Augustine---not just about the quote---but his whole philosophy of original sin.
Because our nature IS inherently good---man was meant to act according to his inherent nature---That is why desires are not "evil". ---it is excessive attachment to desires that creates consequences that can harm---and this is where "wrong belief" enters the scene. Desires can be channelled for the benefit of all of God's creations and this can bring about much good.

I also disagree with the sentiment that creatures/creation is the "source" of "evil". If God is ominicient, omnipotent...etc, then to attribute powers to a creature/creation is problematic. Our nature and the state of all creation is the will of God. ---so, why are we in a state in which we may be predisposed to good, but have the potential to harm? Because God is not only most compassionate, most merciful,---He is also Most Just. To oppress is an injustice. To create us with free-will---and then to take it away so that we are incapable of choice--is to oppress--because it is to take away liberties that he himself gave us in the first place!
So, why do I claim that God is most merciful, most compassionate? It is his compassion and mercy that created us (and all creation) that is why we are inherently good---and though free-will gives us the potential to harm---our inherent nature gives us the potential to repent and God who is most compassionate, most merciful forgives us.
But what of those who are so arrogantly stubborn, they refuse to ask God's forgiveness for the harm they have caused?---God who is most merciful, most compassionate gives us many tests, trials, opportunities and invitations to remember him and to ask his forgiveness. If we fail to do so in our time on earth---we must face the consequences at the time of Judgement. He promises Justice so that no soul shall be wronged.

 

[FS123]

my theological issues with original sin: It seems unfair to pass on the sin to children who have nothing to do with it.

Jewish point of view is similar to Islam too http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

 

[siam]

collective sin/guilt---interesting point FS.

Ego is a state of self-awareness. We cannot be unique individuals without being self-aware. We also need to be self-aware in order to do God's will---which is to have right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations. And God's creations includes not just "You" but "Me/I" as well. If a person is barely surviving, then it would be difficult for that person to take care of the needs of his neighbor. A person whose own needs are reasonably met---will have the opportunities to take care of those who need care....but in order to take care of our needs---we need to be self-aware.

But to be a self-aware, unique, individual, means that we are also individually accountable for our beliefs, intentions and actions. Therefore the excuse---I just followed others---cannot work at Judgement day....an individual is responsible for his actions, intentions and beliefs and will be accountable for his choices. And because we were created inherently good---the excuse--I did not know----also will not work. With the rare exception of those who may have mental incapacities---we are aware when we do wrong/harm.

Yet, in order to do God's will---we must not only be individuals--but also be capable of altruism/charity. So God, in his wisdom, created us social in nature.---aware of others. But awareness of the "other" is not enough---if it produces actions out of pity. God is the Creator of all creation---which means he created "Me/I" and "You". ---And if we are all creations of the One God--then "I" and "You" are equal---not superior or inferior. Therefore, "You" are as entitled to the bounties and blessings of God as "I" am. It is this sense of brotherhood that will bring us to the path of peace.

However, the potential for a sense of brotherhood---or our social nature does not mean that the rewards and punishments for our choices are collective---For Justice requires that we are independantly accountable for our individual choices. Even when a choice was made by a group---we are individually responsible because free-will is an individual gift from God. That is why neither bad deeds nor good deeds can be passed onto anothers shoulder. God is Most Just.

 

[M.I.A.]

collective sin/guilt---interesting point FS.

Ego is a state of self-awareness. We cannot be unique individuals without being self-aware. We also need to be self-aware in order to do God's will---which is to have right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations. And God's creations includes not just "You" but "Me/I" as well. If a person is barely surviving, then it would be difficult for that person to take care of the needs of his neighbor. A person whose own needs are reasonably met---will have the opportunities to take care of those who need care....but in order to take care of our needs---we need to be self-aware.

But to be a self-aware, unique, individual, means that we are also individually accountable for our beliefs, intentions and actions. Therefore the excuse---I just followed others---cannot work at Judgement day....an individual is responsible for his actions, intentions and beliefs and will be accountable for his choices. And because we were created inherently good---the excuse--I did not know----also will not work. With the rare exception of those who may have mental incapacities---we are aware when we do wrong/harm.

Yet, in order to do God's will---we must not only be individuals--but also be capable of altruism/charity. So God, in his wisdom, created us social in nature.---aware of others. But awareness of the "other" is not enough---if it produces actions out of pity. God is the Creator of all creation---which means he created "Me/I" and "You". ---And if we are all creations of the One God--then "I" and "You" are equal---not superior or inferior. Therefore, "You" are as entitled to the bounties and blessings of God as "I" am. It is this sense of brotherhood that will bring us to the path of peace.

However, the potential for a sense of brotherhood---or our social nature does not mean that the rewards and punishments for our choices are collective---For Justice requires that we are independantly accountable for our individual choices. Even when a choice was made by a group---we are individually responsible because free-will is an individual gift from God. That is why neither bad deeds nor good deeds can be passed onto anothers shoulder. God is Most Just.

we should treat each other equally
but it is our actions and intent that set us apart from each other, those that use the quran as there criterion of personal judgement should in theory have a better chance of receiving/understanding guidance and putting it into practice.

the application of knowledge and the purpose of its use is equally as important, you can have all the knowledge in the world but if you cant put it into practice then that is ultimately the proof of god we require.

the way you talk to people in manner, tone, sentence structure, body language, intent, emotion and reasoning all affects the outcome.
but ultimately if a person wants to disregard something, they will.

and sometimes we say the wrong thing also.

so the success of action is very much with god, the more aware you get the more apparent it gets.
and the more manipulation you use in your message the more fearful you get of what you are saying...or you should do.

 

[Amigo]

I agree generally with what you say but disagree with Augustine---not just about the quote---but his whole philosophy of original sin.
Because our nature IS inherently good---man was meant to act according to his inherent nature---That is why desires are not "evil". ---it is excessive attachment to desires that creates consequences that can harm---and this is where "wrong belief" enters the scene. Desires can be channelled for the benefit of all of God's creations and this can bring about much good.

I also disagree with the sentiment that creatures/creation is the "source" of "evil". If God is ominicient, omnipotent...etc, then to attribute powers to a creature/creation is problematic. Our nature and the state of all creation is the will of God. ---so, why are we in a state in which we may be predisposed to good, but have the potential to harm? Because God is not only most compassionate, most merciful,---He is also Most Just. To oppress is an injustice. To create us with free-will---and then to take it away so that we are incapable of choice--is to oppress--because it is to take away liberties that he himself gave us in the first place!
So, why do I claim that God is most merciful, most compassionate? It is his compassion and mercy that created us (and all creation) that is why we are inherently good---and though free-will gives us the potential to harm---our inherent nature gives us the potential to repent and God who is most compassionate, most merciful forgives us.
But what of those who are so arrogantly stubborn, they refuse to ask God's forgiveness for the harm they have caused?---God who is most merciful, most compassionate gives us many tests, trials, opportunities and invitations to remember him and to ask his forgiveness. If we fail to do so in our time on earth---we must face the consequences at the time of Judgement. He promises Justice so that no soul shall be wronged.

The point is that man can do nothing good without God.
Evil is an act/desire/intention/etc which lacks the participation/pleasure/blessing of God.
God is all good and only good and all goodness comes from Him and Him alone.
However, since Creatures have self-determination, and God does not impose his goodness on creatures, Creatures have to be open to the goodness of God in order for them to be good and produce goodness.
When a creature does things 'alone'/without God, these kinds of things which are done without God's pleasure/blessing are the things which are by nature evil. They lack the will of God in them and so they are acursed from the foundation and are evil by nature.
Just as darkness is by nature the lack of light so evil is by nature the lack of God's goodness.
Evil is not an essence in itself or a power or anything that is a 'thing' with some kind of integrity...
Evil is a disorder, and malfunction, an ANOMALY...these can only have as origins imperfections. A car is good when running in order, but let it run out of control...it will (nearly) personify evil and will harm anyone in its way. Although God permits this to happen, God is not the origninator, some creature's imperfections are.

This is not to say that God is not everywhere or that his will is not everywhere. God is there and his Holy Will.
God is in everything, only his status so to speak is relative to the thing itself:
If the thing is in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Blessing and blessing it.
If the thing is not in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Curse, and condemning it.


peace

 

[M.I.A.]

The point is that man can do nothing good without God.
Evil is an act/desire/intention/etc which lacks the participation/pleasure/blessing of God.
God is all good and only good and all goodness comes from Him and Him alone.
However, since Creatures have self-determination, and God does not impose his goodness on creatures, Creatures have to be open to the goodness of God in order for them to be good and produce goodness.
When a creature does things 'alone'/without God, these kinds of things which are done without God's pleasure/blessing are the things which are by nature evil. This is why evil can only originate from the creature with self-determination.
This is the nature of evil, that it lacks the will of God in it. Just as darkness is the lack of light and spells disaster because all kinds of hurts can happen in it.
Evil is not an essence in itself or a power or anything that is a 'thing' with some kind of integrity...
Evil is a disorder, and malfunction, an ANOMALY...these can only have as origins imperfections. A car is good when running in order, but let it run out of control...it will (nearly) personify evil and will harm anyone in its way. Although God permits this to happen, God is not the origninator, some creature's imperfections are.

This is not to say that God is not everywhere or that his will is not everywhere. God is there and his Holy Will.
God is in everything, only his status so to speak is relative to the thing itself:
If the thing is in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Blessing and blessing it.
If the thing is not in line with his holy Will, God is there as its Curse, and condemning it.


peace

no, just as you have said god is a constant
it would seem that scripture indicates evil is also a constant.

we can use the argument of predetermination in its broadest sense.

if gods will is ever manifest.. as we believe

and we also have free will.. as we believe

then evil should be in a state of constant loss, to think of anybody in constant loss i do not see evil.. only misdirection

true evil is of those that have understood and then used understanding at the cost of others.

unfortunately where do you draw the line?
when you cant win for fear of consequence, you become the state of constant personal loss.
but a plus side is that others will benefit.

 

[Amigo]

no, just as you have said god is a constant
it would seem that scripture indicates evil is also a constant.

we can use the argument of predetermination in its broadest sense.

if gods will is ever manifest.. as we believe

and we also have free will.. as we believe

then evil should be in a state of constant loss, to think of anybody in constant loss i do not see evil.. only misdirection

true evil is of those that have understood and then used understanding at the cost of others.

unfortunately where do you draw the line?
when you cant win for fear of consequence, you become the state of constant personal loss.
but a plus side is that others will benefit.

God knows how to derive good out of evil, so God always wins so to speak, and yes, this is a plus for good people. All things work for the good of those who love God.

 

[M.I.A.]

God knows how to derive good out of evil, so God always wins so to speak, and yes, this is a plus for good people. All things work for the good of those who love God.

its said to hate the action and not the person.

yeah i guess god has no need of winning, as he has no need of anything.
but people do, some of the victories achieved in his name can hardly be put into a good vs evil boundary.
you can look at the holocaust, any world war, Chechnya, Vietnam, palastine.

winning does not indicate goodness, if it does then look at those in error.

 

[siam]

If God is omnipotent, then nothing can happen unless he wills it.
If God is omnipresent, then there cannot be a state where God is not present.
If God is a Just, Compassionate, Merciful, Creator, then he would not have created us inherently evil.
Therefore, good/evil cannot be caused by the presence or absence of God, nor can they be against his will. And if all creation is inherently good---evil/harm cannot be because of an absence of good.

We have free-will because God wills it. Because of free-will, we have the liberty to choose. Because of this liberty, we have responsibility for our choices. Because of this responsibility, we will be held accountable. That is why there is Judgement.

Why is Judgement after death and not here on earth?
Because God is Just, Compassionate, and Merciful and gives us every opportunity to repent.
God can (and does) reward and punish on earth, but both of these are tests and trials for our growth because he is Just, Compassionate and Merciful. Because we were created inherently good---we do not need justification for good---but justify evil/harm by self-deception. Self-deception is a choice---one in which we are aware of both the self (self-aware) and the deception (justification) for the harm. Therefore, there is no excuse for the harm humans cause. To do Justice to those who misuse God's gift of free-will by choosing to harm---there is hell. And, as MIA mentioned, when we consider the various atrocities committed by man....Falluja, Abu Ghraib, Guantanomo.....etc we can see that hell is necessary........

 

[Grace Seeker]

my theological issues with original sin: It seems unfair to pass on the sin to children who have nothing to do with it.

Jewish point of view is similar to Islam too http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Again, it isn't the sin of Adam that is passed on to his children, it is the consequence of that sin. And personally I don't think that is fair either, but if you object take it up not with God, but with Adam.

Adam's sin changed him. It changed the world in which he lived. That which had been perfect, no longer was. We are all born into that imperfect world, and it does effect us. To say that we are born into a sinless state is to claim that somehow the bell once rung can be unrung. I've never known that to be true with anything else in life, how does one suppose that it could be true with regard to sin?

I'm not saying that we are born actually guilty of committing sin, but we are born stained by sin for are born into a world that is polluted by sin's presence and raised by parents who are themselves sinners. From the moment of our birth sin is a part of our lives and we cannot escape it, at least not own our own power and merits.

 

[Grace Seeker]

And if all creation is inherently good---evil/harm cannot be because of an absence of good.

</p>
How does one define either "evil" or "good"? Which one is the natural state, and which is the perversion or absence of the other?

I want to suggest that just as cold is the absence of heat and darkness the absence of light, so too evil is the absence of good. And God is good, therefore without God only evil would exist. When God is absent in a person's life, however apparently good they may appear from a human perspective, we are still really evil when measured by a divine standard such as God himself.

Thus, when we were created to live in fellowship with God and God was present in our lives it could be said even of humanity that we were good. But God didn't want automatons, he wanted people of free-will choosing to be in relationship with him. And so, if we were to be able to choose God, we had to be able for it to actually be a choice, and not something with a predetermined outcome. Therefore, God created us with the ability to choose God or to not choose God. In other words, we were free to choose either good or evil. This does not make the capacity for choice an evil itself, indeed I would actually argue it is a good. But the results of that free choice had to allow for the capacity for evil just as much as they allowed for the capacity of good.

Thus it is that a good God does not have to create evil, but simply to allow for it. For the moment that he allows for a part of his creation to live apart from him, then while all of that which God has created is good, that his good creation might choose to divorce itself from its creator is to cut itself off from that which is good, and hence enter into that which (by my definition) is evil.

 

[siam]

for this discussion---at least for my responses, "evil" is confined to the harm caused by humans (due to wrong belief/egoism)---and good would be defined as that which benefits all of God's creations......

There CANNOT be an "absence" of God if God is all present/eternally existent----in other words to say God is "absent"/not present means that one believes God is NOT always present. This would go against the "eternally existent" understanding of God as not only is God all present but also all active---that is, he does not rest/sleep/slack off/not exist for a while/is in this place but not that.....etc.....etc

 

[siam]

but we are born stained by sin for are born into a world that is polluted by sin's presence and raised by parents who are themselves sinners.

I disagree----God is compassionate and merciful---and "merciful" means forgiving......

 

[FS123]

Again, it isn't the sin of Adam that is passed on to his children, it is the consequence of that sin. And personally I don't think that is fair either, but if you object take it up not with God, but with Adam.

Adam's sin changed him. It changed the world in which he lived. That which had been perfect, no longer was. We are all born into that imperfect world, and it does effect us. To say that we are born into a sinless state is to claim that somehow the bell once rung can be unrung. I've never known that to be true with anything else in life, how does one suppose that it could be true with regard to sin?

I'm not saying that we are born actually guilty of committing sin, but we are born stained by sin for are born into a world that is polluted by sin's presence and raised by parents who are themselves sinners. From the moment of our birth sin is a part of our lives and we cannot escape it, at least not own our own power and merits.

Whether you call it a sin or consequence it doesn't matter because it is passed down to children who had nothing to do with it, which seems unfair. It is like when person commits a crime that person goes to jail, but then his children and their children have to live in jail for the crime they didn't commit. See where the problem is? Adam changed, that doesn't matter because in the end it is up to God, it is the system of God, so why pass it to children when they had nothing to with the changed state of Adam or whatever. Hence, the objection of Atheist, and many have become Atheist over this issue. In Islam this is not the issue, since man is supposed to spend time in this world from the beginning, it is not the consequences of Adam's sin. Each person is responsible for only their own self's.

 

[siam]

"Thus it is that a good God does not have to create evil, but simply to allow for it."
---but one might complain that if God is most powerful, most compassionate, most merciful--and therefore does not "create" evil----then why does he bother to "allow" it"?---free-will and Justice answers this question somewhat---but let us look more closely......

When we consider free-will---we understand that this free-will is "conditional" in that we will have to be accountable for our intentions and actions. Therefore, God's "allowance" is actually conditional----our choices will result in punishment(hell) or reward(Paradise). This warning has been given since the beginning.

When it comes to human nature---we can see that we have been created so that we develop various "tools" such as ego(self-awareness), desires, intelligence, and free-will. These tools are not harmful in themselves----but they can be used by humans to cause harm.

What is the difference between the harm caused by humans and that which occurs naturally (such as natural disasters?) The harm by humans is often deliberate and malicious---but nature is simply following its course/cycle of death and birth....

Can God harm?----Yes.....is he not the creator of hell?;D
It would be ridiculous to attribute "malicious intent" to God as God has no wants/desires. Maimonides said "the only divine plan is that which allows humankind to shape its own destiny"

God, the most compassionate, the most merciful, the most just, has empowered us to choose our destiny---we can either follow our inherent nature (good) which is predisposed to submit to God's will and thus fulfill the purpose for which we were created---to do God's will---which is to have right belief, that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations---or we can opt for wrong belief (self-delusion) that promotes wrong intentions that harms God's creations. Our free-will is conditional---and the condition is that we wil be held accountable for our choices.

Yet, hell is only one aspect---there is also Paradise. If God is most compassionate, most merciful, most just,--- then Paradise becomes necessary----for those who have suffered pain, injustice, oppression, torture....etc at the hands of other human beings----compensation becomes necessary for justice. (likewise for other injuries/suffering caused by the natural cycles). Therefore, blessings and trials on earth as well as hell and paradise are a necessary part of his grand design...........


......I am still forming my thoughts on this aspect/theory.....comments/criticism welcome.....

 

[Grace Seeker]

Whether you call it a sin or consequence it doesn't matter because it is passed down to children who had nothing to do with it, which seems unfair. It is like when person commits a crime that person goes to jail, but then his children and their children have to live in jail for the crime they didn't commit. See where the problem is? Adam changed, that doesn't matter because in the end it is up to God, it is the system of God, so why pass it to children when they had nothing to with the changed state of Adam or whatever. Hence, the objection of Atheist, and many have become Atheist over this issue. In Islam this is not the issue, since man is supposed to spend time in this world from the beginning, it is not the consequences of Adam's sin. Each person is responsible for only their own self's.

But what you describe about a child living in jail for a crime they didn't commit happens all the time. I agree it isn't fair, but that doesn't mean that it isn't reality.

And Islam can likewise claim that living in the world we do is what is supposed to happen, but that also doesn't change the fact that we live in this world, rather than paradise, as a consequence of Adam's choices, not our own.

The other interesting point that you made is that in the end it is up to God. So, given that the reality is that we all live in a world in which evil does exist, what you are saying is that God chooses to expose us to evil even though he knows that some of us will fail the test and fall into evil. He could have prevented that, but chose not to. If God is good and all that he does is to work good in our lives, then that leaves us to ask the question, what is good about leaving people to fall prey to evil? If the premise is in error, then God is not good nad he does not work for good in our lives. Such a view does not fit the understanding of God within Christianity, does it fit Islam?

 

[جوري]

, but that doesn't mean that it isn't reality.

what other meaning is there if we're to presume that God is just?

(No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.) thus emphasizing Allah's reckoning, decision and justice that will occur on the Day of Resurrection. The souls will only be recompensed for their deeds, good for good and evil for evil. No person shall carry the burden of another person, a fact that indicates Allah's perfect justice.




And every man's work have WE fasten to his neck; and on the Day of Resurrection WE shall bring out for him a book which he will find wide open. It will be said to him, ‘Read thy book. Sufficient is thy own soul as a reckoner against thee this day.’ He who follows the right way follows it only for the good of his own soul; and he who goes astray, goes astray only to his own loss. And no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another. And WE shall never punish until WE have sent a Messenger.

desist Grace Seeker from spreading the word of the devil, when Allah's word has been made manifest and clear!

best

 

[FS123]

And Islam can likewise claim that living in the world we do is what is supposed to happen, but that also doesn't change the fact that we live in this world, rather than paradise, as a consequence of Adam's choices, not our own.

No in Islam it is not because of the consequences of Adam's choices. I think you have not read the quoted passage: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134307770-original-sin-2.html#post1454579

Short answer, we are suppose to be here as khalifah. The word khalifah means "a vicar," "a delegate," "a representative," "a person authorized to act for others." Therefore, it appears that man is meant to represent and act on behalf of God in some sense.

The other interesting point that you made is that in the end it is up to God. So, given that the reality is that we all live in a world in which evil does exist, what you are saying is that God chooses to expose us to evil even though he knows that some of us will fail the test and fall into evil. He could have prevented that, but chose not to. If God is good and all that he does is to work good in our lives, then that leaves us to ask the question, what is good about leaving people to fall prey to evil? If the premise is in error, then God is not good nad he does not work for good in our lives. Such a view does not fit the understanding of God within Christianity, does it fit Islam?

That is also explained in that passage there. I recommend reading the book, most of the book is for Muslims and issues of facing Islamic community but there are chapters like ch 2 & 5 that would explain you Islamic perspective. Overall, that book is a good read if you want to have an understanding from Islamic point of view.

Short answer is we have freewill and God wants us to make moral choices and have moral growth with our own freewill. But freewill comes with consequences that some people will do bad, but it is up to them; hence, the guidance of God and His sending of prophets to guide humans and jinns. Read the quoted passage, it will save both of us sometime.

An analogy is with a teacher, he gives his students tests and wants its pupils to pass, but that doesn't mean everyone will pass, but it is up to the students. Even if some students who are not smart enough, a good teacher, always gives provisions for every hard working student to at least pass the class with side projects, etc... So any student who do tries will at least pass, but on the other hand, there are slackers who doesn't want to do the work and spend time playing around (even though they might be smarter than some other passing students); hence, they will fail by their own accord. Evil is part of the test, but it is temporary and it is up to us what choices we make.

 

[Predator]

desist Grace Seeker from spreading the word of the devil, when Allah's word has been made manifest and clear!

best

And I have made it manifest to him with his own book at http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134307770-original-sin.html#post1454060, but he just wants to