I'm not convinced that human evolution contradicts the Qu'ran...

What do you think? The Qu'ran pretty much states that Adam [aleyhis-salaam] was the first man... but it doesn't contradict with the idea that there may have been other "man like" hominids leading up to him... We know that Allah [swt] created man from clay, as He [swt] says in the Qu'ran... But Allah [swt] is using the term generally, if I understand it, and not specifically... I know in at least one verse of the Qu'ran, Allah [swt] states that all mankind is made from clay... that clearly doesn't mean we were literally formed out of clay in the wombs of our mothers... Dirt/Clay is simply a loose term to refer to carbon and minerals, i.e. necessary building blocks of life... and biological science attests to the fact that life first began on earth in something like marshlands... where there would have been clay and mud, [i.e., carbon and minerals required for life to begin] etc...

The question I have is, is it possible to understand Adam [a.s.] being the "first man" to be, the first man with a soul, who was accountable for his actions, and was close enough in form to be considered "human" -even if he was the last in a long line of evolutionary species? Because the Qu'ran doesn't have a "story of creation" like the book of Genesis in the Bible, where it is clearly stated that there was nothing, and then God made the first human being... The Qu'ran is somewhat vague on what was happening on earth before man... But we know there were things happening on earth before Adam [a.s.] got here, based on the verse in the Qu'ran where Allah states, "And when thy Lord said to the angels, 'I am going to place a ruler in the earth', they said: 'Wilt Thou place in it such as make mischief in it and shed blood? And we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness?' He said: 'Surely I know what you know not...'" [Qu'ran 2:30]. From this verse we see that earth was well formed long before Adam [a.s.], and the angels were quite familiar with it...

After all, we know it is possible for human beings to "evolve" based on the Hadith that states that Adam [a.s.] was so many cubits tall, and that people have been decreasing in size since the time of Adam... So... I guess what I'm asking is, what are your thoughts? Is it possible to interpret the creation of man as a subtle, evolutionary process guided by the Will of Allah, who is Al-Lateef [subtle/benign], and that Adam is merely the first "human being" as understood by God, in terms of what it means to make one human? [i.e., having a soul, a certain amount of intellect, accountability for ones actions, etc.]?

I mean, even the descriptions of Adam [a.s.] in the Qu'ran sound like something that represents the most base form of human intellect... not an intellect that is tainted by centuries upon centuries of philosophies, complicated ideas, etc.... But rather, he seems to me to be [Allahu 'Alim], the most basic human prototype imagineable... He is ordered to stay away from a specific tree... But Satan comes and says, "No, this tree is good, and it'll do such and such good thing for you..." And Adam, having no concept of "lying" immediately succumbed and ate from the tree, disobeying God... But, yet he learned a very basic lesson... Actions have consequences, and hardships [even ones brought on by our own mistakes] can work out to our developmental benefit [because Adam did learn from his mistake and took on the attributes of humility and repentance, which elevated his character, ultimately...]

I dunno, I'm just kinda thinking in typed word format... feel free to give me your feedback...

Salaam/Peace

Greetings and peace be with you MuslimCONVERT;

I know in at least one verse of the Qu'ran, Allah [swt] states that all mankind is made from clay... that clearly doesn't mean we were literally formed out of clay in the wombs of our mothers...

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Just a thought, if we had the knowledge; all of us would be able to trace our ancestry back to Adam.
Adam can trace his ancestry to clay; hence all mankind comes from the clay of Adam.
Ok I am Christian, maybe some more learned people might have other thoughts

In the spirit of searching

Eric

MuslimCONVERT said:

I guess what I'm asking is, what are your thoughts? Is it possible to interpret the creation of man as a subtle, evolutionary process guided by the Will of Allah, who is Al-Lateef [subtle/benign], and that Adam is merely the first "human being" as understood by God, in terms of what it means to make one human? [i.e., having a soul, a certain amount of intellect, accountability for ones actions, etc.]?

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Your statement that I highlighted in red directly contradicts the Theory of Evolution (ToE). For one thing evolutionists would most definitely strike the word 'creation' and substitute 'evolution from a common unicellular ancestor' and they would strike 'guided by the Will of Allah' to replace it with 'that was the result of natural selection for certain genetic mutations and biological differences through survival of the fittest'.

The debate between creation and evolution to me is not so much the physical means through which mankind came into being, but rather the involvement or lack thereof of Allah (swt) in intimately directing and controlling the most minute step in the coming into existence of human life. I am a plant geneticist and I have knowledge of molecular biology and the inheritance of traits. I see biological systems and the various species of life as living documents that prove to me the existence of Allah (swt) as evidenced by His creation. I do not concern myself with a question of whether Adam was literally fashioned by Allah (swt) from clay or whether Adam 'evolved' over eons of time through the direction and control of Allah (swt). I think of my development in my mothers womb first as an unfertilized egg that was then fertilized by a single one out of millions of competing sperm, and then from this fertilized egg into a multicellular blob that gradually developed a distinct form and shape. I also know that at the early stages of development I looked very similar to the embryo of a monkey, a rabbit, a chicken, or a turtle. These images seem to indicate a commonality in ancestry, but all of them have preexisting parents of the same species as a prerequisite. Once you have Adam and Eve or the seminal parents, the life process seems to be self-perpetuating, but the real question is how did those seminal, ancestral parents arise. This question can be answered in the same manner as, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haeckel_drawings.jpg



As I said earlier, I know about biological systems and no one will ever convince me that the species evolved 'naturally' from a common unicellular, prokaryotic ancestor without the intimate design, control and direction by Allah (swt).

so you are saying Adam had parents who were animal like? Did these "hominid like" parents, as you describe them, have souls? Did they commit zina as animals commit with each other? I am not sure Adam would be born to zaani "hominid like" parents.

If Adam's immediate parents were "homind like" and not entirely homo sapiens, then when did Adam become a homo sapien? When he was in womb of his "hominid like" mother's womb? Or later when he was undergoing puberty (yea ridiculous). Or hmm ?

Asalaamu Alaikum,

This is what Abdur Raheem said.

Perseveranze said:

Asalaamu Alaikum,

This is what Abdur Raheem said.

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He pretty much said what I would have except with a British accent.

MustafaMc said:

Your statement that I highlighted in red directly contradicts the Theory of Evolution (ToE).

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Actually that is for atheistic evolutionist. ToE is just is analysis of the mechanics of the process. As for Adam in jannah, that could be on earth, Quran is not specific. The same word to "go down" is used for Isrealites when they disobeyed Moses (pbuh). I tell you where it does, it says Adam was created without a father and mother, as Jesus was created without a father. How exactly we don't know. But Jesus (pbuh) even though without a father, but he still had to go through the normal process of birth through womb. Somebody suggested without a father may mean through horizontal mutation/gene transfer. But it is just guess, nobody knows the exact process.

In that case, both Adam and Jesus births would go against ToE, but that is just based on the belief that things happen as we know it. In Islam, we have the middle path, things happen in a pattern, but there are unknowns and unseen things in reality.

So I don't think ToE goes against Islam, unless somebody is very rigid beliefs for ToE.

FS123 said:

Actually that is for atheist evolutionist. ToE is just is analysis of the mechanics of the process.

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By definition evolution is atheistic because the existence of Allah (swt) cannot be scientifically proven. We as humans are unable to categorize and scientifically study Allah's (swt) nature. ToE is not an 'analysis of the mechanics', but rather it is a hypothesis that has been accepted by some as a scientifically sound theory. I rather think it is a bunch of speculative hogwash and much ado about absolutely nothing.

MustafaMc said:

By definition evolution is atheistic because the existence of Allah (swt) cannot be scientifically proven. We as humans are unable to categorize and scientifically study Allah's (swt) nature. ToE is not an 'analysis of the mechanics', but rather it is a hypothesis that has been accepted by some as a scientifically sound theory. I rather think it is a bunch of speculative hogwash and much ado about absolutely nothing.

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Then the whole science would be atheistic, but it is not like that. Science has its limitation, it can't tell how the stock market will move next month. It can only be used with repeatable patterns and material (or material that is accessible to us). I agree with you about ToE, it has lot of conjunctures which cannot be tested in a true scientific method. But overall I don't think it goes against Islam, a person just have to have balanced and objective view.

CosmicPathos said:

so you are saying Adam had parents who were animal like? Did these "hominid like" parents, as you describe them, have souls? Did they commit zina as animals commit with each other? I am not sure Adam would be born to zaani "hominid like" parents.

If Adam's immediate parents were "homind like" and not entirely homo sapiens, then when did Adam become a homo sapien? When he was in womb of his "hominid like" mother's womb? Or later when he was undergoing puberty (yea ridiculous). Or hmm ?

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No not saying anything... Just kind of thinking... Not presenting "my views" or saying that what I've written is true...

although some mutations are visible in other creatures, this can't be used to claim that we just came out of amoeba, not thinking, not willing and not seeing, and slowly just developed into humans with authority over land and sea.
the explanation given is that one mutation at a time, the process of natural selection kept the best traits and discarded the rest.
without a will.
this cannot explain how something as complex as the eye developed, as most of the components of the eye are useless without the other parts, and of no benefit to the existing parts
and for non thinking, non seeing matter which came out of a non thinking non seeing planet to suddenly decide it wants to see, when it doesn't even know what seeing is and is unable to think in order to decide to build the components via a long process doesn't seem sensible at all, as the organism would have rejected each component as a useless trait,
it would have to know what it's doing and trying to make if it isn't going to discard these components as unnecessary.
also the fact that there are 7bn homo sapiens on earth, for the process of evolution to make sense, it would require that there were hundreds of billions of creatures almost identical to humans roaming around, since it works through multiplication. and if one were to try to explainthe absence of these creatures via the theory of natural selection of the best traits, it wouldn't leave room for all the other creatures which are so different from humans that are present today.

the argument that Allah created us in stages may possibly have some reason to exist as it explains the Being Who wills the process, although i don't hold that point of view,

the argument can be made that Allah tells us in the Quran that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam, He created him from dust and said "BE", and he was.
the Quran also tells us clearly that Jesus (pbuh) was born of woman, (the process of fetal development is not given even though it occurred),
the dust being the origin of constituents which build the body.
Allah also tells us in the quran that He took out the offspring of Adam from Adam's loins and said "am i not your Rabb"

When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":
Quran 7:172
yet we know that we came to this earth through the process of birth with long stages between us, and Allah also tells us about this process in the Quran.

so it could be argued that the presence of man in paradise is different to how he came about on earth.
but i still find it hard to believe that we were once monkeys or something else (one mutation short) and that with one sudden mutation we became human and have continued as humans since,
and all the other humans from the mutation before disappeared while fish and snakes and birds and worms and elephants and apes remained.

Allah knows best

If you refer to evolution from the point of where we were humans onwards then fair enough. Because it only makes sense. But if you take it all the way to the apes, then stop!

If you look at skin colours for example, you will see that people have more or less adapted to their environment. Hotter regions in general have darker skinned people. People more or less adapted to their environment, because Adam 3layhu alsalaaam was only a certain colour.

Evolution in that sense, well u can call it adaptation is not contradicted by islamic belief.

God says in the Quran that He created Adam with His Hands. what i take that to mean is that God created Adam by himself and Adam didn't evolve from anything else nor was he produced like children are from their parents. additionally, i believe that it also says in the Quran that God made Adam from clay and then blew soul into him, but am unsure of the exact words. all this points to the fact that God made Adam directly from clay and Adam was not evolved from some other being.

I watched a show last night, "What Darwin Never Knew" about modern scientific evidence for evolution. They did present a lot of 'science' but they also presented so many half-truths to border on lying for them to present ToE as scientific knowledge that is widely accepted. The show most certainly would have appeared very convincing to one not educated in biological sciences. For one thing they proposed the evolution of legs from a fish that was trying to escape being eaten by another fish. The problem is that for this to be factual, the organism would have had to develop fully functional legs in the water for them to offer any advantage and another thing is that this 'walking fish' would have had to simultaneously develop the capability to breathe air through lungs and not by filtering oxygen from water through gills. Neither did they present the example of the Mudskipper fish that exists today as an apparent missing link in the evolution chain. If evolution works to develop new species, why does this 'missing link' still exist?

As Richard Dawkins himself would put it, the theory of evolution does not disprove God, but it does go a long way towards showing that we could have come to be without God. It doesn't refute theism, but it does go towards showing it to be unnecessary. It is compatible with theism (belief in God). If it is compatible with Islam in particular I don't know.