Many Christians are Converting to Islam

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

monotheistic means believe in one god. I hope you actually understand the term?

Hindus CLAIM they believe in one god. So, according to your criteria, hindus are monotheistic as well.

Yes, I know what monthesitc means. Hinduism conceives the whole world as a single family that deifies the one truth, and therefore it accepts all forms of beliefs and dismisses labels of distinct religions which would imply a division of identity.^{[They see the whole world as one big happy family. They claim to be all things and claim to accept all religions including Islam and Christianity. So this is not a good example of what you are trying to say. Christianity is mutually exclusive from all religions! The Bible mentions the prophets or God before the Quran did; so, IMO, the latter is closer to the time events it records whether they are copies or originals.}

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Here's the commandments thaat all christians are breaking by worshiping jesus (pbuh):

Thou shalt have none other gods before me
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

(Matthew 15:9):
“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Men make all doctrines of modern Christianity: the Trinity, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Original Sin and Atonement.

I am a Christian that believes in the one and only true God as Jesus mentions. The angles are higher than humans and they were commanded to worship Jesus. People worship Jesus in the Bible and Jesus didn't stop them. We don't see Jesus as God's partner or God the Father, but you think that we do associate Him as a partner. We believe He is the Word of God incarnate.

Can your word be your partner? No, it can't. My word cannot be my partner, but it is a very part of my nature, character and essence; I cannot be greater than my word; can I? Can you? But, I could be greater than my word if I had the power to make it a person. I would be greater than that person, but not greater than my word! THE WORD OF GOD IS EQUAL TO GOD. Do you believe what I wrote in caps? Can Allah be greater than his word?

I am a Christian. I do not bow down to statues or serve them. I never did and never will. That is idolatry. "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord" We hold to the same message the prophets spoke of.
I don't take the name of the Lord in vain. You are mixing and matching verses out of context otherwise know as mine quoting to say what you want. Taking the name of the Lord in vain means just that. I hear people cursing saying God this and that and Jesus this and that. I never heard any one say Allah this and that.

Jesus said, "They worship me in vain" You must read that in context. Lets look at it in context: Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? ⁴ For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’^[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’^{[b] 5} But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ ⁶ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. ⁷ You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ⁸ “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
⁹ They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules

These are the types of commands of men He is referring to. Jesus also said not all that say to me Lord, Lord will enter into heaven but they that do the will of God. That is not to say that calling Jesus Lord is the problem!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

So God has a son named Jesus. and jesus is your subordinate God.
I see that christians believe God has sons named Adam, Jacob, Solomon, Ephraim, Common people, and Jesus.

Yes God has many sons, but Jesus is the unique son of God born of a virgin who never lay with a man. Jesus is according to the Bible Lord of lords, but you have placed him to the level equal with all other prophets and esteem even Muhammad's word over Jesus whom the Bible claims is the Actual Word of God.

Remember the Quran claims that the Scriptures that came before Muhammad was born are not alterable as I have already pointed out to you. So just why are so many Christians converting to Islam? That question hasn't been answered in my heart thus far. I can only think that they never really knew Jesus Christ the way the Bible proclaims Him.
PBUY

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

So Women are looked at and treated as if they were property, and they are at the subjective mercy of their men based on whether they should be oppressed or not. They are even taught how they are to beat their women to avoid oppressing them. Hmm, how about teaching men not to beat them at all to avoid oppression?

I agree with you. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) never beat a woman but unfortunately some people allow their culture to overtake Islam and they tend to follow the teachings of their culture over the teachings of the prophets, peace be upon them all.

However, women in Islam are not to be looked at as if they are the property of men. This is not true. Nowhere in the Quran will you find a verse that says men are superior beings to women. I don't know if maybe you've read some hadith that say that but sometimes the wrong words are translated from Arabic in those. Trust me, before I converted I at some of those and asked some who actually spoke Arabic to get a better meaning of those hadith. We know that women in Islam are half of the deen. And spousal abuse is not something that happens only within the Muslim communities but everywhere. Surely you agree that we should be teaching all men to respect women and not to ever lay a hand on them. Please also understand that Muslims are human beings too and we are not in any way perfect and never will be.

Note to my Muslim brothers and sisters who might watch this, the video has music throughout but has Arabic subtitles.

In the video the woman tells us that she married a born-again Christian Iranian man and he tried to control her and keep her in the house and not let her go anywhere. But watching this I do not assume that all Christian men treat their wives in this way. Again, culture getting in the way. We also know that in American culture, it's now become the norm for men to be married and have an affair or two on the side or for Christian men to sleep with women they are not married to. Swinging, having an open marriage, is something else that is on the rise to tone down on divorce for many Christian families here. Again, this is another example of culture getting in the way and people not exactly following Christian teachings but the latest trends. Monogamy is dead they like to say.

"When she is a daughter, she opens a door of Jannah (heaven) for her father. When she is a wife, she completes half of the deen of her husband. When she is a mother, Jannah lies under her feet - If everyone knew the true status of a muslim women in Islaam, even the men would want to be women." [Akram Nadawi]

Yes, I have read the Bible from many different translations and I assure you that even after all of that I am no scholar of Christianity and I wouldn't dare claim to be so as I am a Muslim now. That wouldn't exactly be fair. But what I want you to understand is the definition of a Muslim.

A Muslim is one who gains peace by submitting his or her will to the One God. Not to Muhammad or Jesus peace be upon them both. They were both human beings.

But I have this question for you too. You mentioned those verses that say that Muhammad (pbuh) can't possibly be a messenger because he has the wrong lineage, but what do you have to say about this verse here in Matthew 15:24?

²⁴ He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Now I don't know about you but I am not an Israelite at all. But tell me, I want to know how you personally justify this passage here? I want to know what you think. Christians say that Jesus was sent for all of mankind but his alleged words from the current Bible that we have tell us differently. This is what he said. And if you read that verse further, Jesus (pbuh) allegedly says to the Caananite woman,

²⁵ The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. ²⁶ He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” OUCH!

Of course we see later on in the story that he went ahead and healed the woman's daughter after she grovelled. But initially he allegedly refused to even help her because she wasn't an Israelite.

The reason why I write allegedly in this is because we really have no way of confirming what Jesus (pbuh) ACTUALLY said in the Bible. We don't have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the ORIGINAL today. All we have now are remnants of it with new stories and other fabrications added in. If an entire story was fabricated and words were attributed to Jesus (pbuh) that we KNOW he didn't say, see the story I showed you earlier, then why are you to trust anything else? Someone lied and put words into his mouth. There are even letters attributed to Paul when we know Paul did not write them. They were forgeries. So when you quote the Bible to us and say that "Well in the Bible, Jesus says this." We don't take it because there is no way to confirm what Jesus(pbuh) actually said. And what is taught in the church even conflicts with some of his other statements in the Bible as well.

Did you read that article I showed you about the worlds oldest known Bible? In the article, it states that there are books in the old testament and new testament that we don't have in the current Bible today. And many of the key verses about the Resurrection of Jesus aren't even in the Bible which indicates that they were added in later. Something is not right my brother. You say that the word of God is equal to God but the Bible is not the word of God. Who gave any of these men the authority to change this? Who gave any of these men the authority to make up stories about God's prophet and present them as Gospel truth?

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-06/world/ancient.bible.online_1_codex-sinaiticus-constantine-tischendorf-new-testament?_s=PM:WORLD

The world's oldest known Christian Bible goes online Monday -- but the 1,600-year-old text doesn't match the one you'll find in churches today.


Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.


The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections -- some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.


And some familiar -- very important -- passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.


Juan Garces, the British Library project curator, said it should be no surprise that the ancient text is not quite the same as the modern one, since the Bible has developed and changed over the years.


That's scary. Now if that 1,600 year-old Bible that they found was the same as the Bible today then we might be much more inclined to listen to what you quote to us from the Bible. But if there are missing books, important passages missing and inserted sentences, any detective will tell you that's evidence tampering.

I'll have to come back later to see if I can help answer some of your other questions in shaa Allah (God willing). But understand that I am definitely no Muslim scholar as I haven't even been a Muslim for an entire year yet and May Allah make me intelligent as you have said to me earlier. Ameeeeen.

I am still learning about Islam too. There is still so much to learn. I'll see if I can also direct you to send some of your questions to real scholars and other Muslims who are immensely more knowledgeable than me and I pray that Allah swt increases my knowledge in His religion and helps guide us all to the truth. Ameen.

But please read the articles and be honest with yourself about what the others here are trying to tell you and I hope that some of the other brothers and sisters here can aid in answering the questions that I cannot for fear of speaking wrongly about Allah (swt) and his messengers.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

The burden is on me that I should show that you associate Allah with Muhammad. I didn't say that; I said you associate the name of Muhammad with Allah. That is easy to prove. You do it in the Shaadah.

yes, we associate all prophets (pbut) with God in exactly the same way, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon, John the babtist, and Jesus peace be upon them all and all others that i did not mention.
we don't associate ANY OF THEM with Godhood or any of His qualities, they were human, and they were chosen and received the duty of proclaiming the message from God to the people
the question is about accepting the latest ambassador and he confirms all others before him,

surely you wont tell the King who sent you the message that you don't like His message because you liked the previous ambassador.

Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

Quran 2:136

rejecting john the baptist is rejecting Jesus, rejecting Jesus is rejecting Moses,

"Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers saying, ‘We believe in some but reject others,’ and wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment." (4:150-151)

33. We know indeed the grief which their words cause you : it is not you that they deny, but it is the Signs of Allah that the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) deny.
34. Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you , but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt, till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words (Decisions) of Allah. Surely there has reached you the information (news) about the Messengers (before you).
Quran 6:33-34

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Remember the Quran claims that the Scriptures that came before Muhammad was born are not alterable as I have already pointed out to you.

No it doesn't. This is a favourite tactic of the Christian missionary and anti-Islam sites.

They indeed are losers who deny their meeting with Allah until, when the Hour cometh on them suddenly, they cry: Alas for us, that we neglected it! They bear upon their backs their burdens. Ah, evil is that which they bear!
What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand?
We know that you, [O Muhammad], are saddened by what they say. And indeed, they do not call you untruthful, but it is the verses of Allah that the wrongdoers reject.
Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you (O Muhammad), but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt, till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words (Decisions) of Allah. And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers.
And if their aversion is grievous unto thee, then, if you can, seek a way down into the earth or a ladder unto the sky that you may bring unto them a portent (to convince them all)! - If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance - So do not be among the foolish ones. (Translation of Qur'an 6:31-35)

One can see that there is nothing at all here that talks about promising to preserve the previous scriptures. The Arabic word kalimaat has multiple meanings depending on the context, and here, it can be translated to say words or decisions, but even when translated as word, it means words in the context of decisions, as in this verse:

And, verily, Our word has gone forth of old for Our servants, the Messengers. That they verily would be made triumphant. And that Our hosts, they verily would be the victors. (37:171-173)

This refers to His decision that victory in this life and the Hereafter is for His believing servants.The meaning is the same as:

Allah has decreed: "Verily! It is I and My Messengers who shall be the victorious.'' Verily, Allah is All-Powerful, Almighty. (58:21)

On the other hand Allah clearly tells us many times that the previous scriptures have been adulterated:

Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly? (2:75)

...They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. (5:13)

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (2:79)

So there is no statement at all where Allah promises to preserve the previous scriptures.

As for your assertion that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was told to ask those who read the scriptures if he was in doubt, and why would he have been told to ask this if the said scriptures were corrupted, those who read the scriptures tended to be the just and pious scholars of the people of the book, who knew the scriptures had been changed and knew what the original message had been, and it was expected and known that they would testify that the Message of the Qur'an was indeed the same as that of the scriptures of the former Prophets. The common people did not read the scriptures, but accepted whatever their average scholars told them.

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

I said you associate the name of Muhammad with Allah. That is easy to prove. You do it in the Shaadah.

Oh dear, you're clutching at straws here.

If we said Allah and Muhammad joined together as one word, then the names would be associated.

The translation of the shahaadah, is as follows:

I testify that there is no God but Allah, and I testify that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His servant and messenger.

We make two testifications, first that we accept Allah as the only God, the Only One worthy of worship, and secondly we then testify that we accept that Muhammad is the final messenger that God sent (as we accept all the other prophets, peace be upon them).

Whatever else you say about that is of your own volition.

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

So just why are so many Christians converting to Islam? That question hasn't been answered in my heart thus far. I can only think that they never really knew Jesus Christ the way the Bible proclaims Him.

Quite right. They don't know him the way the Bible proclaims him. They don't know him the way Paul (who never met him), Matthew, Mark,, Luke, John, and umpteen other anonymous human authors of the NT proclaim him. They have the privilege, honour and gift of getting to know him as God Himself proclaimed him, as he actually was, nothing more exaggerated than that, and nothing an iota less. That is one of the countless reasons why, which you are currently choosing to close your eyes, mind and heart to.

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

I agree with you. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) never beat a woman but unfortunately some people allow their culture to overtake Islam and they tend to follow the teachings of their culture over the teachings of the prophets, peace be upon them all.

Thank you for the agreement. My sister, I see Muslims treat their wives better than Christians and I have seen Christians treat their wives better than Muslims. I am not referring to individual cases of treatment. I am concerned about what is built into the religon. Christians are taught to love their wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her. We are to lay down of lives for our wives.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

A Muslim is one who gains peace by submitting his or her will to the One God. Not to Muhammad or Jesus peace be upon them both. They were both human beings.

In that case, I am a Muslim.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

I have this question for you too. You mentioned those verses that say that Muhammad (pbuh) can't possibly be a messenger because he has the wrong lineage, but what do you have to say about this verse here in Matthew 15:24?

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Now I don't know about you but I am not an Israelite at all. But tell me, I want to know how you personally justify this passage here? I want to know what you think. Christians say that Jesus was sent for all of mankind but his alleged words from the current Bible that we have tell us differently. This is what he said. And if you read that verse further, Jesus (pbuh) allegedly says to the Caananite woman,

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” OUCH!

I like the way you write and I enjoy your comments. Ouch is right! But, what was really going on there? I believe Jesus loved that woman no less than anyone. He was showing off the woman's great faith. Jesus was commending that women. Jesus said and did things just to elicit a response and take advantage of a teachable moment like school teachers are supposed to do. Jesus was and is the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth. Notice that the women wasn't rebuked for graveling at His feet as if to worship Him. Any time a person got down on their knees before the apostles, they were rebuke by the apostles. They would tell them "man get up we are men just like you and nothing more." Jesus never stop anyone that called Him "My Lord and my God" nor did He stop any from graveling in worship at His feet like the woman washing His feet with her tears and perfume.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

The reason why I write allegedly in this is because we really have no way of confirming what Jesus (pbuh) ACTUALLY said in the Bible. We don't have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the ORIGINAL today. All we have now are remnants of it with new stories and other fabrications added in

Okay, this is all you have to justify your decision against the Bible. To me this is where my faith kicks in. I believe like the Quran says God's word is not alterable whether before Muhammad's time or after. Can you show me where Muhammad said the the Bible is corrupted?

Scholars know the translation errors and fabrications which is known as negligible interpolations such as the woman caught in adultery or the the father, spirit and word they three are one. Written by an over zealous scribe. The word "begotten son" is a poor translation but beloved son is acurate because God said "This is my beloved son"

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

Nowhere in the Quran will you find a verse that says men are superior beings to women. I don't know if maybe you've read some hadith that say that but sometimes the wrong words are translated from Arabic in those.

What about the witness of a woman being half that of a man? What does that mean to you?

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

That's scary. Now if that 1,600 year-old Bible that they found was the same as the Bible today then we might be much more inclined to listen to what you quote to us from the Bible. But if there are missing books, important passages missing and inserted sentences, any detective will tell you that's evidence tampering.

Again, I shared many verses from the Quran that state that Allah will not let his word be corrupted or altered. Mistranslation & interpoaltions are not God's word, but we must trust the rest and that Allah is able to keep his word. Isn't that true?

According to what you are saying, Allah is contradicting himself or unable to do what he promised; that is when you compare Bible with the Quran. Who would want to corrupt the message to the extent you claim, and who was to gain from it and what? The apostles risk their lives and lost their lives to preach a tale? Where is the logic in that and why don't you believe what Allah said about the Scriptures that came before Muahmmad that are not alterable? Why would Allah ask Muhammad to refer to corrupted Scriptures?

The Jews have a copy of the OT and so do the Greek Christians. So their exists both the Jews have copies and the Greek have copies that can be compared. These are the same Scriptures Allah referred Muhammad too. The Quran is suppose to confirm these Spiritures but more importantly the older Scriptures should confirn the newer, but they don't explicitly do that and IMO, not even implicitly, but I believe their must be something spoken of about Muhmmad in the Bible, because he turned out to be so great and blesseth; however, I think a prophet is pushing it too far from what we can make of the Scriptures in the Bible. Gen 21:12 tells us Muhammad would be blesseth put not a prophet. There is no evidence that the Torah is corrupted, but only confirmed by Allah to be unalterable so go figure. I am amazed at how powerful Islam has grown and I am convinced it will out grow Christianity especially when Christians who were once like you convert. That is why I started this thread. This Christian still doesn't understand why Christian convert to Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

but the Quran says kill the infidel wherver you find them.

Another anti-islam and missionary tactic.

Islam does not advocate, support, or condone terrorism, illegitimate acts of violence, or the harm of innocent people. Islam promotes peace, and aims for a peaceful society. It does however, permit, and at times requires, Muslims to defend themselves, their family, property, religion, and community, from aggression and oppression. However, peace is the norm, not warfare, which is a last resort. Permission to fight an aggressive enemy is balanced by a strong mandate for making peace. Qur'anic verses underscore that peace should be inclined to whenever and as soon as possible in a situation of conflict.

Sometimes verses are quoted out of context - they refer to the polytheists who had broken treaties with the Prophet and were waging war against the Muslims, so Muslims were instructed to resume combat with them. It was regarding only that specific group, not other polytheists who did not take up arms against the Muslims, nor broke treaties. The Qur'an goes so far as to say that if an enemy asks for protection, this should be granted, then he should be delivered to a place of safety.

This is what those sites will not tell you, neither verses that come before or after, such as "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." (2:190) and, "And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know." (9:6)

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

What about the witness of a woman being half that of men? What does that mean to you?

that is mentioned in the bible itself

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1

On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

But never put a person to death on the testimony of only one witness. There must always be two or three witnesses.
Deut 17:6

But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
Matthew 18:16

when you put a requirement, you put a minimum, you either say two, or you say three, or you say at least two
two or three clearly implies that there is a difference


it is a fact that even women admit, and can be observed, that women are more emotionally swayed than men,
it is not a bad thing, as these emotions are a naturally required trait for their role as mother,
a mother's instinct is often stronger when the child is in danger etc.
i also come across many different women and it is true that they are generally more sensitive than men.
secondly, women being the physically weaker sex are often dependent on the approval of the stronger sex,
this is also a natural trait and not to be seen as wrong, but there are certain roles for each person.
my dad would mercilessly beat the hell out of us if anyone complained about us,
and my mum would try to protect us and tell my dad the other person was lying - even when she knew it was true
then she'd go mad at the complainant lol.


regarding the alteration of the scripture, the blessed Prophet Jeremiah (pbuh) made it clear that they were tampering with it:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
Jeremiah 8:8

Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown),
and declare: "This is from God. "
So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.
Quran 2.79

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

that is mentioned in the bible itself

The verses you gave doesn't say the witness of a woman is worth half that of a man. It mentiones nothing of gender

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

it is a fact that even women admit, and can be observed, that women are more emotionally swayed than men,
it is not a bad thing, as these emotions are a naturally required trait for their role as mother,
a mother's instinct is often stronger when the child is in danger etc.
i also come across many different women and it is true that they are generally more sensitive than men.
secondly, women being the physically weaker sex are often dependent on the approval of the stronger sex,
this is also a natural trait and not to be seen as wrong, but there are certain roles for each person.
my dad would mercilessly beat the hell out of us if anyone complained about us,
and my mum would try to protect us and tell my dad the other person was lying - even when she knew it was true
then she'd go mad at the complainant lol.

So for this reason women are discriminated against as being worth half of a man when it comes to their testimony. I have seen women emotionally stronger than men most of my life. In fact, men have more nervous breakdowns then women. I can understand if you say the physical strength of a women is half that of a man, but emotionally they can handle more that man from my experiences. They are as tough as they need to be. if fact, women are even harder then men. If a woman tells me she saw a certain man rob a bank, I would not belief her less than if a man told me, but you would? That is just plan ridiculous.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

regarding the alteration of the scripture, the blessed Prophet Jeremiah (pbuh) made it clear that they were tampering with it:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
Jeremiah 8:8

Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown),
and declare: "This is from God. "
So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for the gain they make thereby.
Quran 2.79

Muhammad is critcizing the people not the Script. and in Jeremiah those who deal falsely with the pen have been exposed and punished. It didn't make it's way into the Bible; otherwise, you won't have verses like that reporting the false prophets and pens. Besides, Allah said his word is unchangaeble and unaltered. He had Muhammad refer to the Scriptures. Why would Allah tell him to go to something he knew was corrupted?

All lying pens have been exposed or you would never know they were there. You have to read in context. Today we have people falsifying the meaning of Scripture and corrupting passages like the Jehovah Witnesses have their Watchtower version of the Bible. They say that the word wasn't God, but changed and added an article to say the word was "a god" that is wrong; it is the word "was God." We know what falsifications have been made they are exposed.

So you believe Allah cannot do what he said He said the Scriptures are not alterable and the Bible says they are established forever in heaven. People try to make changes but they are always exposed and punished by God. Even today there are thousand of cults such as Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and World Mission Society Church of God, Christian Scientist and so on, but they deceive people but God's word still stands for those who read it and see it truthfully with the help of the comforter the spirit of truth who is in us forever. The spirit of truth is not a man or a book; He is the Spirit that proceeds from God to us that belong to God and are in His grip! Don't tell me man's power to corrupt is stronger than God's power to preserve. I just ain't buying it

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Muhammad is critcizing the people not the Script.

Greetings Burninglight

that thread is filled with points ,question one dunno where to begin with .....
anyway I disgaree with many of your input ... let's begin with that

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Muhammad is critcizing the people not the Script.

I don't think that is accurate ,Actually The Quran criticises both ..

check

Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

and

Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

and

Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items


if you disagree with any of the previous ,just quote me , and post it there in the other thread , plz...

Regards

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

I am looking for the truth

Then open your eyes, for when it is shown to you, the blinders are coming down. You asked a question, and we have given you quite a few out of the many reasons why Christians revert to Islam, but you insist that they are all taking blind leaps of faith. You appear to be in denial, which is a convenient and comfortable position to be in. In Islam, we are encouraged to ponder, consider, and reflect, and it is precisely when people did that, that they saw the truth, and came to God's original and true message.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Besides, Allah said his word is unchangaeble and unaltered. He had Muhammad refer to the Scriptures. Why would Allah tell him to go to something he knew was corrupted?

I see now what is happening here.

I posted explaining the above and clarifying this before my respected brother Abz200's post, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1493314
but that has conveniently been ignored, as have other things as Br Ramadhan has said.

That is not the sign of a seeker of truth. We have had many seekers of truth here, many of whom have embraced Islam. Even those who did not, did not adopt your approach. Rather, they asked, I have read xyz about Islam, is this true, or can somebody explain it, and then we clarified their misconceptions for them. Then they could see where Islam was coming from, and learned from it. They didn't insist on ignoring what was said and didn't insist on repeating things that weren't true, things that were their own erroneous misconceptions, despite them having being corrected and clarified.

But you are doing precisely that. I will not spend any further time. I have written reasonably informative and comprehensive posts, as have all my brothers and sisters here. The most important thing, is for God's message to be conveyed to you, which I believe it has, many times over, and in different ways. God is my witness, that you received that message, and chose not to accept it at this time, though I pray that you will consider what has been said, and will accept the truth. If you don't open your eyes, your mind and your heart to it, then you yourself are blocking yourself from seeing and accepting it, and you will bear the consequences of that.

I leave you with a selection from some of the verses pertaining to Jesus (peace be upon him) from the Qur'an:

Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take to Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He says to it only: Be! and it is. [Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path." But different parties began to dispute with one another, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day. (19:34-37)

And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me. Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a straight path." But the denominations from among them differed [and separated], so woe to those who have wronged from the punishment of a painful Day. (43:63-65)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorns His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him. (4:171-172)

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (5:17)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they do not desist from so saying, a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Say, "Do you worship besides Allah that which holds for you no [power of] harm or benefit? Allah it is Who is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower." (5:72-76)

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary! Did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah"? He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me: "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things. If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise." (5: 116-118)

Praise be to Allah, Who has revealed the Scripture to His slave, and has allowed therein no crookedness:
[He has made it] straight, to warn of severe punishment from Him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward, In which they will remain forever
And to warn those who say, "Allah has taken a son."
They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie. (18:1-5)

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)

And say: Praise be to Allah, Who has not taken a son, and Who has no partner in the Sovereignty, nor has He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. (17:111)

Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Honour and Power, from what they attribute unto Him!
And peace be upon the messengers.
And praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds! (37:180-182)

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary! Did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah"? He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

The Quran says try to see if there be any discrepancy. I am seeing them without looking. So as long as I am seeking to be a Muslim, I am seeking truth, but if I try it with questions am not a truth seeker and you have me firgured. Even the Bible tells us to "try the spirits" and not to believe them all.

I am skill having questions about what is true about Islam. If you feel that way, I should stop posting for a while, but I still wonder why so many of my Christian brothers from my faith convert to Islam. If I show reserve about Islam, you have me figured as not a truth seeker. Let me ask you a question. Why would Allah ask Jesus "Did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'

No where in the Bible does it state that Mary is deity nor did any Biblical Christian say she is God. If Allah had said "Did you say to the people take me and the Holy Spirit besides me as God," this would show some understanding of the trinity. It really bothers me that Allah or Muhammad didn't show a true understanding of what we Christians believe about the tri unity of God.

It seems that Muhammad thought the trinity consisted of the Faher, Mother and the Son. My God would know the difference and woujld have shown what was our true belief, but why didn't the god of the Quran? This along with several other things you say were answered weren't really answers that click with me in my spirit. So for that you have judged me.

I think I will just stop my post for a while and take a breather to see if I can see different. If anyone wants to PM me that is fine, but I am done for now
PBUY and may we all be truth seekers, but keeping in mind when we seek truth, the Devil is always ready to distort our preception

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

No where in the Bible does it state that Mary is deity nor did any Biblical Christian say she is God. If Allah had said "Did you say to the people take me and the Holy Spirit besides me as God," this would show some understanding of the trinity. It really bothers me that Allah or Muhammad didn't show a true understanding of what we Christians believe about the tri unity of God.

It seems that Muhammad thought the trinity consisted of the Faher, Mother and the Son. My God would know the difference and woujld have shown what was our true belief, but why didn't the god of the Quran? This along with several other things you say were answered weren't really answers that click with me in my spirit.

catholics don't pray to images of Mary (as) and call her "mother of God"?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?aq=0&oq=prayer+to+ma&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=prayer+to+mary

The Pope prays to Mary and encourages all Catholics to do the same. In his Sunday mass in Denver in Aug.1993 John Paul II entrusted the youth and the entire world under Mary’s protection and guidance.

Can we pray to Mary or other saints as we do to God? Can some person who is at the other end of the universe hear our prayers? Isn't this something that is exclusively reserved to God? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri “We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).

Rites dedicated to Santa Muerte are similar to Catholic rites, including processions and prayers with the aim of gaining a favor.
Many believers in Santa Muerte are Catholics, who invoke the name of God, Christ and the Virgin in their petitions to Santa Muerte.
Altars contain an image of Santa Muerte, generally surrounded by any or all of the following: cigarettes, flowers, fruit, incense, alcoholic beverages, coins, candies and candles




50. And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
51. O ye messengers! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
Quran 23:50-51

Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him.
His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.
See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!"
Quran 5:75


Who's claiming to worship Mary? Those who reject the Prophets and claim to follow them.
The Quran is not mistaken in saying that The blessed Maryam (upon her be peace) is worshipped besides God,
and it didn't say she was part of the trinity either,
please read the whole of it through for yourself rather than just go to the hate sites,
peace,
Abz

I dunno why all of u guys trying with this guy, he's not going to see the truth. All we can do is give all the information we can and he can either take it or leave it. U can't force someone to see.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

I am skill having questions about what is true about Islam. If you feel that way, I should stop posting for a while, but I still wonder why so many of my Christian brothers from my faith convert to Islam. If I show reserve about Islam, you have me figured as not a truth seeker. Let me ask you a question. Why would Allah ask Jesus "Did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'

A truth seeker would've done his research.

Here's a full refutation - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur.../marytrin.html

i have a feeling he is seeking and is just arguing his misconceptions, and that something has caused him to wonder but the hate sites are really bugging him,
one person is recorded to have said about 'Umar bin Khattab (ra) when told that he may become a Muslim one day:
"the donkey of Al khattab ('umar's father) will become a Muslim before he does",
but by the grace of Allah, just a single moment of reflection changed him, and he became the Caliph, the leader of the believers, and one who's name is mentioned with respect every day.
just a reminder to never give up hope of Allah's guidance,
i really believe he's seeking, and is just a little confused =)
the denial really kicks in near the end before the heart is broken open, it's a common occurrence.