Many Christians are Converting to Islam

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari (Radi-Allahu 'anhu):

The Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) said, "None is more patient than
Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people):
They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and
provision."

Bukhari Vol. 9 : No. 475

burning light, i dont like to make you defensive by pushing you to justify concepts that don't make any sense, i normally prefer to give you info that you request so that you may reflect rather than argue with you so that you push back due to psychological isolation instead of taking info and mulling over it with your own god Given intellect.
still, there's a chance that you may look at it with a level head.

but in what way do you say that Christ Jesus (pbuh) is the son of Almighty God?
do you mean this in a literal sense or something else?
if it was not in a literal sense, then there are many references in the ot to the Prophets (pbut) being referred to as sons of God and normal people too.
and if you really believe that Jesus (pbuh) was "begotten" by God (ASTAGHFIRULLAH) then that would be indicating that Mary (may Allah bless her) would be called the.(astaghfirullah - i can't repeat that stuff) but you know what i mean?
and that would mean that Jesus (pbuh) is not eternal since one has to be present first to beget the other or even be referred to as the father.
taking all this into consideration - does the term "son of God" really mean anything of consequence?
and what is the reason for delegating it to Christ (pbuh)? since Adam was the "son of God" and Moses is recorded to have been told that he was a god in exodus 7:1
and also in the psalms: I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
if Jesus (pbuh) is in some way diverse from the others in being a son, do you think it must be in a literal sense? and what would that make Mary (ra)?
and would jesus' (pbuh) aunts and uncles be cousins of God? and his nephews and nieces God's grandchildren? or do you really mean that it doesn't really mean son?
and could Jesus (pbuh) be God and his own son at the same time? and his only BEGOTTEN son at that too - and then also the son of man.
without mentioning any names i noticed some are not happy with us referring to Jesus (pbuh) as the son of Mary (the most revered woman in Islam),
yet they don't see it as blasphemous to indicate that God had his nappies changed and was cooed and cuddled by ladies who saw His private organs?
do you know how blasphemous that sounds? i hate to even repeat it but i feel the need to make one reflect. May God forgive me.
think about it for a second from a neutral stance.
wow, my mind is spinning from the gymnastics.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9


thirdly i'll leave you with this:




Virgin Mary Appears in Chicago Water Stain

the image of the Virgin Mary has appeared in a water stain beneath a bridge in Chicago: ‘Mary’ image still drawing crowds.


The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough,
to make cakes to the queen of heaven,
and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD:
do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7:18-19


Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness:
(He hath made it) Straight (and Clear) in order that He may warn (the godless) of a terrible Punishment from Him,
and that He may give Glad Tidings to the Believers who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a goodly Reward,
Wherein they shall remain for ever:
Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son":
No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers.
It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!
Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this Message.
Quran 18:1-6

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

So, i understand this verse to say that the words in the Bible are harmful and annoying to Allah when the people say it, but he still bestows health and provision any way. Well, can truly say I thank God for my health, and I am not doing bad finanically either.

Nothing harms Allah for Allah is beyond being harmed by humans. It is you who believes that God was slaughtered by his own creations on a cross.

I know deep inside such absurd, blasphemic and unbiblical beliefs created by the corrupters of the true message of Jesus, do not make sense to you as you have already admitted but your pride will not allow you to admit it.

Why do you feel that you have to force yourself to believe that which is not backed up by the words and teachings of ANY Prophet, Jesus and God himself?

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

you request so that you may reflect rather than argue with you so that you push back due to psychological isolation rather than take info and mull over it.
still, there's a chance that you may look at it with a level head.

but in what way do you say that Christ Jesus (pbuh) is the son of Almighty God?
do you mean this in a literal sense or something else?
if it was not in a literal sense, then there are many references in the ot to the Prophets (pbut) being referred to as sons of God and normal people too.
and if you really believe that Jesus (pbuh) was "begotten" by God (ASTAGHFIRULLAH) then that would be indicating that Mary (may Allah bless her) would be called the.(astaghfirullah - i can't repeat that stuff) but you know what i mean?
and that would mean that Jesus (pbuh) is not eternal since one has to be present first to beget the other or even be referred to as the father.
taking all this into consideration - does the term "son of God" really mean anything of consequence?

Okay, friend I really don't know how to expalin this to you but I'll try. I do NOT believe that God seered Jesus; IOW, He didn't have intercourse with Mary. I am not exaclty sure how the Bible means it. I believe that God calls Jesus His "Beloved Son" I don't really understand how this is possible and I think the only reason this bothers Muslims is because it goes agianst the Quran, but if the Quran said Jesus is the son of God, they wouldn't have a problem with it either.

So this is all a terrible tragedy. Islam and Chrisitanity are of the same Abrahamic religion yet they are polarized beyond belief. We can't both be right and one cannot convince the other easily or at all. It has to be God that does it. I just can't believe that God's Scriptures were corrupted for so long, and I have trouble with a newer religion telling the older religion to take a hike.

Don't worry about offending my sensabilities. I am tired there is so much deception; I am burned out on it, I just want Jesus to come and clear the air. I 'll accept whatever He says. I can tell you that if he said He is not the son of God; than, I can easily repent on the spot according to Islam. I don't believe Jesus was ever God's partner or His associate; truly I don't believe this; however, according to Christianity, when Jesus comes back as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, it is too late to repent for the Muslim or adherent to Islam. So Islam has more to offer in the way of patience from Allah, but the God of the Christian doesn't tolerate not accepting the son. It states we either take Jesus now when we are alive or the devil takes us when we die.

What can I do if believe this? How can I help anyone believe what I do? I cannot especially Muslims. I am an unprofitable servant of God. All I do is annoy everyone on the forum, but God is in control, and I am here for a reason. If He didn't want it so, I wouldn't still be posting. You may think it is because Allah wants me in Islam, but I don't see that. I believe God has another plan. After all, I really do believe "He is the best of planners"

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Okay, friend I really don't know how to expalin this to you but I'll try. I do NOT believe that God seered Jesus; IOW, He didn't have intercourse with Mary. I am not exaclty sure how the Bible means it. I believe that God calls Jesus His "Beloved Son" I don't really understand how this is possible and I think the only reason this bothers Muslims is because it goes agianst the Quran, but if the Quran said Jesus is the son of God, they wouldn't have a problem with it either.

i really like your humility, it shows that there is hope,

what you would have to do if you had two pieces of gold both claiming to be 24 karat is put them to the acid test.
the acid test here would be to check which withstands the test of truth and which has had copper and brass mixed in it.
you said that if the Quran stated that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God, we would believe it. that could only make sense if we could prove that nobody had added to it and that there were no alterations, then we'd either believe it to be the uncorrupted word of God, or we'd have to reject the authenticity of the Quran as having been corrupted thereby having to judge the statements therein with reason and not blind faith.

with the bible, i'm sure you are aware that many alterations have taken place, and even times, names, people and places have been changed to suit a supremacy objective:

after speaking of Ishmael Hajar and the well, it speaks of the sacrifice and the name isaac appears here and also the name jehovah which did not even exist at the time, indicating that someone long after Moses decided to take this course:

And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Genesis 22:14

And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty,
but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.


Exodus 6:2-4

we can see here that the name Jehovah could only have been added to Genesis after the codename was given to Moses (pbuh).

then we have the last chapter of deuteronomy which was written long after Moses:

And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
4And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed:
I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.
.......And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,


i was speaking to a Jewish man once and asked him if the 5 books of the pentateuch had been revealed to Moses (pbuh) and he replied in the affirmative, i asked him if anyone had added to them and he said: no.
i then asked him to check his bible and explain those verses, he tried telling me it that some scholars said that part was by Joshua (indicating that it had been added to and was not revealed to Moses (pbuh).
however it is clear that it couldnt have been by Joshua as Joshua would have known where he buried him, the emphasis in the addition is "to this day".
showing it was a long time afterwards.
there are many others which you can see here:


In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel did Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah begin to reign.
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.
2 kings 8:25-26

And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers.
Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.
And the inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned.
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri
2 chronicles 21:19-2 chronicles 22:2

first we see the discrepancy in the age of the son, one saying 22 the other saying 42.
then we see that the father reigned from the age of 32 and died 8 years later, making him 40 when he dies.
and then they made his son Ahaziah the king and this man is 42 according to the same narrative.
now ask yourself, how are 22 and 42 the same thing,
or can the son be two years older than the father?
we believe that neither Almighty God, nor the Holy Spirit make these mistakes, and that these are done by the hands of men.



the purpose here is not to wrangle and push at each other, but it will then give you a basis on which to decide which to believe.
and also which makes sense.

you may have been told that these are scribal errors, but the fact that different bibles have whole sections added and subtracted, and many subtracting others as "apocraphy" ie fabrication shows that there is a lot more to it than that.
i was once having a friendly conversation with a christian man whom i know and he told me that it is the complete word of God without error,
i asked him which version was the one without the errors and he got a little bit flustered at me.

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard;
they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them,
nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.
From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
Quran 5:13-14

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

first we see the discrepancy in the age of the son, one saying 22 the other saying 42.
then we see that the father reigned from the age of 32 and died 8 years later, making him 40 when he dies.
and then they made his son Ahaziah the king and this man is 42 according to the same narrative.
now ask yourself, how are 22 and 42 the same thing,
or can the son be two years older than the father?
we believe that neither Almighty God, nor the Holy Spirit make these mistakes, and that these are done by the hands of men.

you know these types of problems exist in the several places in the Bible some of them have a logical explaination and others don't have any except to say that it is possible that it was a copyist error due to the scribe or a damage manuscript or smudge on it or maybe poor lighting and long hours.

Who knows, but I don't feel comfortable writing off the Bible altogether becuase of some translated and copied errors. People are human and they error. It is the spirit of the Bible that captivates me. All throughout the OT and NT it is all interlaced like a garment when it is finshed we can see what the garment is even if some of the stitches are crossed that garment will still serve its purpose.

I don't make an idle out of the Bible; it is just a Book that records history. It is going to have problems, but we don't see problems when it comes to the juglar of Scripture; for instance, there is NOT one Scripture that says Jesus did NOT come to die for our sin or that he never rose from the dead or that He is not the son of God or that He isn't the word of God incarnated. It is the Spirit that brings live to the Bible not the letter of the script.

There is nothing to contradict the heart of the gospel. Dates and ages of people and counts are possible to be in conflict for different reasons. But who would do such a thing just for the sake of corrupting God's word, and how can anyone profit by making these types of errors. I look at motive like a detective searches out a crime seen for the possible suspect. Muhammad said people corrupt scripture for gain, but what scripture and how did they gain from these errors you brought to my attention?

We can find what appears to be contradictions in the Quran too. If you are interested in seeing them go and google it or go to you tube and plug in Bible or Quran contradictions. You can find them in the Bible and in any religious book. It looks like Christianity and Islam need the return of Christ. Until then, there will never be reconcilation for these two greatest religions in the world today. But Muslims & Christians will be constantly converting and reverting until the appointed time of Jesus Christ return. When He comes, it will be with the shout of the arc angel and a loud noise and the sun will turn black and the moon to blood and every star from heaven will fall as the earth cracks in half and rocks off its axis. At that time Jesus will set the record straight the world will listen. I feel confident and have peace about this.

these two great religions are not as far apart as one might perceive, actually the are the closest together out of all religions on this planet,
the main and a critical point of difference is the concept of indivisible Godhood and the nature of Christ (pbuh),
and you are correct that the truth will become clear for all to see when Jesus (pbuh) appears, the Quran tells us this:

And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;
Quran 4:159

but the issue is that many will die and not have seen him, despite having the truth plainly visible before them.

these are the names and attribute the Quran tells us about him:
Jesus has been mentioned in the Quran by several names..........






* Kalimatullaah meaning "God's Word" (3:45)
* Qawl al-haqq, meaning "sure word", (19:34)
* Ruhun minhu meaning a "a Spirit from Him" (4:171)
* al-Masih meaning "The Messiah" mentioned eleven times.
* Nabi meaning "prophet" mentioned in 29:30
* Rasul meaning "messenger" (4:157; 5:75)
* ibn Maryam, Isa ibn Maryam meaning "son of Mary" or "Jesus son of Mary" mentioned thirty three times.
* Abd Allah, meaning "Servant of God"
* Min al-muqareeabin meaning "among those who are close to God", later explained by the fact of his "ascension" mentioned in the Qur'an 3:45
* Wadjih, meaning "worthy of esteem in this world and the next"
* Mubarak, meaning "blessed" as "a source of benefit for others, probably a bringer of baraka" (19:31).

and we are told by the Prophet pbuh that he will appear on earth, perform umra or the great pilgrimage to Makkah - or both.
where they walk with him in white with un-defiled garments.
will marry and have children
will live on this earth for 40 years
will die 19 years after marriage.
will rule by the Quran and sunnah,
and in his time - even before that, Allah will bestow such powers on people that if a believer is in the east, he will be able to see his brother in the west,
and if in the west, will be able to see his brother in the east. (actually i was talking to someone from a different country the other day on skype and we were able to see AND hear each other live).
and after the destruction of the "invincible" armies of gog and magog, that the wolves and the sheep will graze together and the child shall be able to play with snakes without being harmed, and that the earth will bring forth it's blessings.

we are told that he will slay the disbelievers with the breath of his lips, and that he will usher in the kingdom and rule of almighty God.


and on the day of judgement, this encounter will take place:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"
He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it.
Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).

To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.

the statement i added in bold indicates that Jesus pbuh is saying that no-one knows what is in God's heart, yet God knows what is in Jesus' heart.
and the one who's heart is read cannot be God.

think for yourself.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah

Nothing harms Allah for Allah is beyond being harmed by humans. It is you who believes that God was slaughtered by his own creations on a cross.

Nothing harms god. God didn't die by the hands of His own creation. When Jesus was on the cross he cried out to His father who is God so how can God who is not man die? He cannot. It was the word of God made flesh that was killed, but God's word can only be silence for a short time. God word was silent for the 3 day span of time. But according to the Scripture Jesus rose from the dead.

The virgin Mary appearing in Chicago is a joke. That is Satan and his demons puting on a show for whoever is will to believe and turn it a religion. It is not the first time people have been deceived by the very best of liars; in fact, he is the father of all lies.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah

I know deep inside such absurd, blasphemic and unbiblical beliefs created by the corrupters of the true message of Jesus, do not make sense to you as you have already admitted but your pride will not allow you to admit it.

It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with choice. You have to realize friend that as strong as you feel & believe you know, Christians also feel and believe the same; however this Christian doesn't want to trust his feelings. They have decieved me before; they make a nice servant but a poor leader. God's ways and thought are not ours ways and thoughts.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah

Why do you feel that you have to force yourself to believe that which is not backed up by the words and teachings of ANY Prophet, Jesus and God himself?

That is just it. It is backed up. If it weren't I won't be here as I stand.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

God word was silent for the 3 day span of time. But according to the Scripture Jesus rose from the dead.

burninglight, you gotta read the sign of jonah:

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

you gotta read the sign of jonah:

I did read the sign of Jonah. I am not sure what the point of this video was about was it designed to show that Jesus didn't die because Jonah didn't or that he wasn't three days and nights in the tomb? I wanted to hear what that guy was saying but they cut his mic. That wasn't nice or fair; then he shouted listen to me listen to me. Did you know that showed of video of Deedat dying? He didn't look at peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Nothing harms god. God didn't die by the hands of His own creation. When Jesus was on the cross he cried out to His father who is God so how can God who is not man die? He cannot. It was the word of God made flesh that was killed, but God's word can only be silence for a short time. God word was silent for the 3 day span of time. But according to the Scripture Jesus rose from the dead.

Either its God or its not. God is God, He is not anyones word nor does he manifest himself as anyone else. Why can you not simply accept that Jesus was a MAN and Messenger of God who conveyed the message of God instead of desperatley holding onto paganistic concepts of God manifesting himself into other things. LET GO. You dont have to hold onto such utter lies which are NOT backed up by the Bible. WHERE does God say that he manifests himself as other things? Show us?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

The virgin Mary appearing in Chicago is a joke. That is Satan and his demons puting on a show for whoever is will to believe and turn it a religion. It is not the first time people have been deceived by the very best of liars; in fact, he is the father of all lies.

Spot on, he has decieved those who follow the corrupters of the true message of Jesus to such an extent that they now worship him as God himself. What an utter deception for Satans main aim is to make mankind worship other than God. He has succeeded in doing this with modern day Christians like yourself. But it is NOT too late to let go of such false paganistic concepts. Do not let the devil lead you astray in such a way. You are here now for a reason and Gd has lead you so that you can find him. The path is now clear for you to accept God as he SHOULD be accepted and how he SHOULD be worshipped and that is that there is NO worthy of worship except him and he has NO partners and does NOT manifest himself as anyone else. Do you lower the name of God to such an extent to claim he does? He is above his creation and above being thought of as manifesting himself as lower beings.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with choice. You have to realize friend that as strong as you feel & believe you know, Christians also feel and believe the same; however this Christian doesn't want to trust his feelings. They have decieved me before; they make a nice servant but a poor leader. God's ways and thought are not ours ways and thoughts.
That is just it. It is backed up. If it weren't I won't be here as I stand.

It has everything to do with pride because i have asked you again and again to provie proof from the words and teachings of God and Jesus but you have NOT been able to provicfe a single verse yet you admitted that you cannot because there is NOT a single verse that proves your false claims. You can only provide the lies of random men whos origins are unknown. Do you call that proof? You cant be serious? Tell me your joking?

If we go PURELY by the teachings of God and Jesus then there is NO doubt that there is ONLY one God and he has NO Partners, children, sons or daughters. He is te ONLY one worthy of all worship and he certainly does NOT manifest himself into 3 beings, for he is above such paganistic concepts that are attributed to him by the courrupters of the true message of Jesus and every Prophet of God. The truth is clear and falsehood will always remain in darkness and that is why whenever you are asked for proof you cannot provided.

So fight the pride and arrogance in your heart and accept the truth. The truth is here for you to grab hold of if only your pride will allow you to let go of the lies you have come to beieve as the truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah

Either its God or its not. God is God, He is not anyones word nor does he manifest himself as anyone else. Why can you not simply accept that Jesus was a MAN and Messenger of God who conveyed the message of God instead of desperatley holding onto paganistic concepts of God manifesting himself into other things. LET GO. You dont have to hold onto such utter lies which are NOT backed up by the Bible. WHERE does God say that he manifests himself as other things? Show us?

Spot on, he has decieved those who follow the corrupters of the true message of Jesus to such an extent that they now worship him as God himself. What an utter deception for Satans main aim is to make mankind worship other than God. He has succeeded in doing this with modern day Christians like yourself. But it is NOT too late to let go of such false paganistic concepts. Do not let the devil lead you astray in such a way. You are here now for a reason and Gd has lead you so that you can find him. The path is now clear for you to accept God as he SHOULD be accepted and how he SHOULD be worshipped and that is that there is NO worthy of worship except him and he has NO partners and does NOT manifest himself as anyone else. Do you lower the name of God to such an extent to claim he does? He is above his creation and above being thought of as manifesting himself as lower beings.

It has everything to do with pride because i have asked you again and again to provie proof from the words and teachings of God and Jesus but you have NOT been able to provicfe a single verse yet you admitted that you cannot because there is NOT a single verse that proves your false claims. You can only provide the lies of random men whos origins are unknown. Do you call that proof? You cant be serious? Tell me your joking?

If we go PURELY by the teachings of God and Jesus then there is NO doubt that there is ONLY one God and he has NO Partners, children, sons or daughters. He is te ONLY one worthy of all worship and he certainly does NOT manifest himself into 3 beings, for he is above such paganistic concepts that are attributed to him by the courrupters of the true message of Jesus and every Prophet of God. The truth is clear and falsehood will always remain in darkness and that is why whenever you are asked for proof you cannot provided.

So fight the pride and arrogance in your heart and accept the truth. The truth is here for you to grab hold of if only your pride will allow you to let go of the lies you have come to beieve as the truth.

Lord I ask you to deliever me from pride . My heart is desparatelty wicked and deceitful only you can make me right with you. I really believe there is only you the one true God. I never promoted the word trinity. I have never seen that word mentioned my Lord and God, I have never said your were 3 different beings. What I said to the Muslims is I don't understand Trinity. I cannot explain a term that is not mentioned in the Bible. I just accept that you God said in an audible voice that Jesus is your beloved son and that you are well pleased with Him and that I should listen to Him.

I also know that you Jesus told us that we will die in our sin unless we believe that you are Him. Lord, I believe all you say; help my unbelief. I bind Satan in the name of Jesus let that every man be a liar but your word is true. Jesus you said that you are the truth, way and the life; you didn't say I show the way. You said you were the true vine and I am the branches. If I abide in you, I will bear much fruit.

Those that do not abide in you are branches that dry up and whither and are cast into the fire to be stepped on by foot. Thank you Lord for working in my life. Please help me to learn what is totally true about you and understand the deep true meanings of Islam. Help us discern Satan lies from God's truth. Let truth prevail on this forum. let all lies be exposed and only truth be seen. With out you I am lost and a dead man walking. don't let me be as those that go down the pit.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Lord I ask you to deliever me from pride . My heart is desparatelty wicked and deceitful only you can make me right with you. I really believe there is only you the one true God. I never promoted the word trinity. I have never seen that word mentioned my Lord and God, I have never said your were 3 different beings. What I said to the Muslims is I don't understand Trinity. I cannot explain a term that is not mentioned in the Bible. I just accept that you God said in an audible voice that Jesus is your beloved son and that you are well pleased with Him and that I should listen to Him.

I also know that you Jesus told us that we will die in our sin unless we believe that you are Him. Lord, I believe all you say; help my unbelief. I bind Satan in the name of Jesus let that every man be a liar but your word is true. Jesus you said that you are the truth, way and the life; you didn't say I show the way. You said you were the true vine and I am the branches. If I abide in you, I will bear much fruit.

Those that do not abide in you are branches that dry up and whither and are cast into the fire to be stepped on by foot. Thank you Lord for working in my life. Please help me to learn what is totally true about you and understand the deep true meanings of Islam. Help us discern Satan lies from God's truth. Let truth prevail on this forum. let all lies be exposed and only truth be seen. With out you I am lost and a dead man walking. don't let me be as those that go down the pit.

God tells those who believe such false lies abut him: THEN SHOW YOUR PROOF IF YOU ARE TRUE?

How dare any of us his creations blaspheme against his highness. How dare we lower his name. How dare we attribute him to his creations.

Of course God commanded the followers of Jesus to follow him. Just like he commanded the followers of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) to follow him. That is because they are the beloved Prophets of God who's jobs are to convey the truth to the people. Our job is to accept their message. To obey the commands of God through them. Many a time God said he was pleased with his Prophets, but NEVER has he commanded anyone to worship them for i challenge you to prove it by giving me a single verse! Therefore we must never must we attribute Gods creations to him.

Of course you dont understand the trinity because not even scholars do! Something that is not logical cannot possibly be understood.

The same people who created the trinity also created other paganistic concepts such as the blood atonement. NONE are consistant with the teachings of Jesus or God. NONE are you expected to beleive in since they are NOT taught. HOW can you accept and believe something that was not taught by God or Jesus? Do you accept the word of random men over the word of God and Jesus himself?

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

burninglight, you gotta read the sign of jonah:

It is an accepted fact in Christian commentaries on the book of Jonah in the Bible that Jonah was kept miraculously alive during the time that he was in the stomach of the fish in the sea. At no time throughout his ordeal did he die in the fish and so came ashore as much alive as he was when he was first thrown into the sea.
In his booklet Deedat takes some of the words in the text quoted above out of their context and makes the statement read "As Jonah was ... so shall the Son of man be" and concludes:

1. If Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to have been alive in the tomb as he himself had foretold(Deedat, What was the Sign of Jonah?, p.6).

Although Jesus had only said that the likeness between him and Jonah would be in the period of time they were each to undergo an internment - Jonah in a fish, Jesus in the heart of the earth - Deedat omits this qualifying reference and claims that Jesus must have been like Jonah in other ways as well, extending the likeness to include the living state of Jonah inside the fish. When Jesus' statement is read as a whole, however, it is quite clear that the likeness is confined to the time factor. As Jonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the fish, so Jesus would be a similar period in the heart of the earth. One cannot stretch this further, as Deedat does, to say that as Jonah was ALIVE in the fish, so Jesus would be alive in the tomb. Jesus did not say this and such an interpretation does not arise from his saying but is read into it. Furthermore, in speaking of his coming crucifixion, Jesus on another occasion used a similar saying which proves the point quite adequately:

1. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up".

John 3.14
Here the likeness is clearly in being "lifted up". As Moses LIFTED UP the serpent, so would the Son of man be LIFTED UP, the one for the healing of the Jews, the other for the healing of the nations. In this case the brass serpent Moses made never was alive and if Deedat's logic is applied to this verse we must presume that it means that Jesus must have been dead before he was lifted up, dead on the cross, and dead when taken down from it. Not only is this illogical, the contradiction between the states of Jonah and the brass serpent (the one was always alive through his ordeal, the other was always dead when used as a symbol on a pole) shows that Jesus was only drawing a likeness between himself and Jonah and the brass serpent respectively in the matters he expressly mentions - the THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS and the LIFTING UP on a pole. It does not matter whether Jonah was alive or not - this has nothing to do with the comparison Jesus was making.

By omitting the qualifying reference to the time period in Jonah's case, Deedat makes the saying of Jesus read "As Jonah was ... so shall the Son of man be" and it is from this unrestricted likeness that he seeks to extend the comparison to the state of the prophet in the fish. But if we follow the same method with the other verse quoted, we come to the exact opposite conclusion. In this case the statement would read: "As the serpent ... so shall the Son of man be" and the state of the serpent was always a dead one. This shows quite plainly that in each case Jesus was not intending to extend the likeness between himself and the prophet or object he mentions to the question of life or death but solely to the very comparisons he expressly sets forth. So we see that Deedat's first objection falls entirely to the ground. A contradictory conclusion automatically results from his line of reasoning and no objection or argument which negates itself can ever be considered with any degree of seriousness.

As far as the time factor I see it as he was in Friday, Sat and Sunday that is within a three day period. One can not judge the way Jews express time as if it was meant to be a prefect 72 hour day like we do today. Jesus was in there within a three and three night period. Deedat's arugment misses the point, and he is only trying to prove that Christ didn't die & rise to destroy Christianity, but Christianity would die like that!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Did you know that showed of video of Deedat dying? He didn't look at peace.

neither was the Prophet pbuh, he said, verily, death has it's pangs and was suffering from a very intense fever.
worst part is though that they were playing brother Deedat's glory days on video while he was showing discontent and indicating upwards,
it is not a time to show your greatness but rather as for your forgiveness
when Caliph 'Umar (ra) was dying, his daughter came and recited lamentations and poetry speaking of his achievements and crying,
he told her to stop praising him but that he could not control her tears.

burninglight, this is not about something that "doesn't make sense", it's about the impossible, God can't be His own father and His own son and eternal and the son of Adam whom he created all at the same time.

i know you are going to say "well God can do anything", and you are wrong in your basic understanding of God if you say this.
God can do everything that's possible, not what's impossible.

for instance, you will agree that everything falls under the dominion and power of God, and nothing is outside His control and Dominion.
so i'm sure you'll admit that one would be foolish to assume that God can throw someone out of His Dominion
just because the person uses the claim that God can do anything.
and yes, they can believe that if they want, but we Muslims use our brains and God given intellect to say that that's IMPOSSIBLE.
and after that, there's not much left to argue with a person who likes to believe otherwise.
one would have to be mentally unstable to rationalize such impossible claims.
one thing i like about your faith is that it's good exercise of the brain, even though there's no opening in the maze.

And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and Allah has power over all things.

verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day
are signs for those who possess understanding.

i dedicate this post to Ahmed deedat who explained the concept.
May Allah grant him forgiveness of faults and among the highest stations in paradise.