I believe that there is no verifiable scientific proof that Allah (swt) exists. By this I mean that no one has ever seen, smelled or touched Him. Moses conversed with Him through the burning bush, but we don't have a tape recording of the conversation. No one has measured or defined His nature other than what He has revealed in the Quran. Belief in Allah (swt) is the most fundamental belief that we Muslims and other theists have. Why do you believe in His existence?
My belief in Allah (swt) centers around the requirement I see for a Creator. This perceived need of a Creator is derived from my scientific knowledge (PhD in genetics and molecular biology, mash'Allah) and through the use of my mind to know that the universe and all life (as my friend Eric noted) did not arise by chance, but rather was created by a Higher Power that I know as Allah (swt). It is my choice to believe in Allah (swt) as it is the choice of others to disbelieve.
I will use an analogy that I have stated elsewhere. If I were to walk upon a beach and came upon three bricks (_ _ _) that were stacked on top of each other perfectly aligned like:
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I would conclude that someone came before me and stacked them up in that matter. The fact that there were no footprints left in the sand would not be proof that I was wrong and that the bricks instead became stacked by the random crashing of the waves on the shoreline. Rather I would conclude that these waves erased the footprints of the person who stacked the bricks while leaving the bricks standing. How much more intricate is the design of life systems that are evidence of a Creator?
In fact per previous post, where I quoted the hadith, sometimes it rains on a terrible people just for the sake of animals not humans.
That doesn't have anything to do with God creating carnivores, who can only exist by inflicting pain and death on others.
“There is no creature moving on the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are all communities like you. We have not missed anything in the Book. Then, to their Lord all of them shall be gathered.” (Qurʾan 6:38)
That doesn't either.
“Allah will resurrect all the creation on the day of rising; animals, birds, cattle and everything. The justice of Allah will prevail even in favour of the hornless animal against the horned animal. Allah will then instruct, "Become dust". This is the very matter that is referred to in the words of Allah; “… the disbeliever will say [when they shall see animals being turned into soil], “O would that I had turned into dust - Qurʾan 78:40” (Musannaf Abd al Razzaq)
Nor does that. Its just another restatement of the threat against disbelievers, probably meant to push believers to convert their loved ones or to not question their own belief.
That doesn't have anything to do with God creating carnivores, who can only exist by inflicting pain and death on others.
Unfortunately you don't know enough about pain or animals. In fact ALL animals hunt in the exact same way, which causes endorphin release which acts as an instant sedative during the time of death.. this can also be simulated in the halal way of slaughter. So they feel nothing.
Many other creatures which aren't killed in this way say 'lobsters' have very poorly developed pain centers.
lastly, I think I mentioned a thousand times over that it doesn't aggrieve me if you worship a cockroach or the mighty dollar, it adds nothing and subtracts nothing from my life.
While we are talking about the Problem of Evil, we should mention the suffering of non-human animals too. How do you explain a loving, all powerful, all knowing God creating carnivores? These are animals that can only survive by inflicting pain and death on others. God couldn't have designed a system of life without that? He didn't want to?
I dont understand what a peaceful and loving God have to do with cycle of life? There are things that are done for a purpose and if we knew the purpose, then I suppose we wouldnt be living on this planet would we? I just dont see why everything negative is associated with God.
Unfortunately you don't know enough about pain or animals. In fact ALL animals hunt in the exact same way, which causes endorphin release which acts as an instant sedative during the time of death..
Not all attacks on prey result in the prey dying painlessly.
Not all attacks on prey result in the prey dying at all. Often the prey will escape, maimed or slowly dying of venom or other after effects.
If you are attacked by a lion or a shark, I doubt you will consider it a pleasant experience.
The Lion and Shark have no other means of survival.
Why did God set it up this way? How can a theist look at this and not see a cruel or indifferent God?
Not all attacks on prey result in the prey dying painlessly.
You know this because you're there at the moment of death measuring with your pain o meter?
This is the cycle of life, and it is life in this world. On them we ride, we use their hide, we use their meat and generally gave us dominion over them not for abuse but for use. In that they fulfill their purpose in this life. Each creation fulfills its purpose in the way it is assigned and designed and death is very much a part of this existence. It is the end of the life of this world but not an end to the soul.
If I died by a lion or a shark I'd be automatically a martyr. =)
Simple, by not trying to justify every single thing that we have no knowledge of.
He's claimed to be both all good and all powerful, and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable, and allows famine and natural disasters to kill good people very painfully. That is a contradiction on the face of it. You have no rational and coherent explanation for this contradiction. I do. This God is either limited in power, limited in benevolence, or doesn't exist.
and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable
Who said it is horrible and unimaginable? You? Yours isn't the compass by which we measure horrible or terrifying. It is actually quite beautiful and remarkable. I am subscribed to a site entitled ''Go ahead bug me'' and I am so in awe of the intricacies and amazing abilities of those tiny creatures and it is beyond the scope of this page to discuss their benefits to life to the eco system not to mention their abilities and life cycle.
Your entire way of thinking is quite amusing..
Also you insist on confusing the self-immolating god of christianity with what we know of his attributes. There's a balance in the world and only the transgressors tip the scale in the wrong direction. But there's always a balance of both in everything, in the seasons in our bodies, in nature. You can't have one without the other. You wouldn't even be able to contrast good or evil, night and day, winter and summer if you didn't always have the two opposing forces. Then what will your idea of good or bad be?
He's claimed to be both all good and all powerful, and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable, and allows famine and natural disasters to kill good people very painfully. That is a contradiction on the face of it. You have no rational and coherent explanation for this contradiction. I do. This God is either limited in power, limited in benevolence, or doesn't exist.
And of course the humans have no fault! Such pure creatures! Nothing that they would do would result in their demise.
I think before we blame God of errors, let us look at ourselves first. Are we doing what we are told to do? Are we fulfilling our covenant? Why do we expect help when we are not doing anything ourselves?
On the other hand, what you presented is a cycle of life, and it indeed seems cruel to those who don't believe in God.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
He's claimed to be both all good and all powerful, and yet he created some of the most horrible and terrifying things imaginable, and allows famine and natural disasters to kill good people very painfully. That is a contradiction on the face of it. You have no rational and coherent explanation for this contradiction. I do. This God is either limited in power, limited in benevolence, or doesn't exist.
so what your saying is why there is any death in the first place?
why things need to eat and drink to survive?
and why the environment changes to such extents that it does not favor the people that live in it.
well it literally is up to god.
but the people dont help themselves.
the funny thing is you could live in a cold damp place for most the year and people still complain when the suns shining.. its a crazy world.
famine is mismanagement at its greatest imo and thats nothing but an end product.
basically the bottom line is that people have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot... god does not change the world for people often.
god does not create evil, people are led to do it.
i mean people live in a place called tornado alley.. in wooden houses.
i dont want them to move, but maybe they should build earthquake resistant housing. (thats about as funny as im getting)
life is like driving a car really, i dont want to crash.
i dont like bad driving habits.
i indicate and i wear a seatbelt.
i think if people had a fear of god rather than a haphazardly way of hoping for allah swt to save them then things may be different.
...the fact that most people dont crash is proof of god in itself really.
the fact that people return and rebuild there homes in tornado alley.. is either arrogance or determination.
its literally the question of is the world as its meant to be.. or do people need to change.
the proof of god is literally the way the world still turns with all the horrible mess thats on it. we are not here for a long stay really. (everything dies apparently)
if it matters what you leave behind or not is something im not aware of.
i guess thats why you have animal activists, nature reserves, eco activists.
politicians, doctors, mechanics and people in all walks of life and dedicated to the things they care about.
...and driving instructors.
what they are able to achieve is anyones guess. i guess if god needs em then they get more lucky than others.
so what your saying is why there is any death in the first place?
why things need to eat and drink to survive?
and why the environment changes to such extents that it does not favor the people that live in it.
More than just that. Look at the links I provided i the previous post. And consider that we have animals on earth that eat each other alive from the inside out, crush them slowly, paralyze them and slowly eat their limbs, catch bugs in webs to be held there helplessly for a long period of time until they are eaten, etc. These animals are often acting on mere instinct, and even when they are not, they have no other means to eat and survive.
Not to mention disease and natural disaster that people had no way of avoiding. I agree it is a bit of a different case when people live in tornado valley in wooden houses, etc, but these things are not always that predictable. People die for no good reason as a result of nature pretty often. This doesn't even address what horrible things people do to each other.
well it literally is up to god.
Yes. If we claim that an all powerful God exists then that logically infers that this purported God wants it this way. And if we claim a creator designed all of these ghastly things then I have to conclude such a creator would have to be sadistic and cruel, not kind and loving. And yes, that is my judgment, and yes it is my place to judge any purported concept of God that others may put forth, just as they themselves judge their concepts of God, usually as good and just and worthy of worship, etc.
god does not create evil, people are led to do it.
If God created everything then God created evil.
...the fact that most people dont crash is proof of god in itself really.
How do you figure that? I don't see that at all.
the fact that people return and rebuild there homes in tornado alley.. is either arrogance or determination.
Probably both, and stupidity too.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-05-2013 at 09:11 AM.
More than just that. Look at the links I provided i the previous post. And consider that we have animals on earth that eat each other alive from the inside out, crush them slowly, paralyze them and slowly eat their limbs, catch bugs in webs to be held there helplessly for a long period of time until they are eaten, etc. These animals are often acting on mere instinct, and even when they are not, they have no other means to eat and survive.
You're trying to apply human thinking, and a human way of life, to something that is not human. The same way that you're trying to apply your thoughts within our limited human capacity, to an unlimited being. You could spend your whole life thinking like this, puzzling over these endless self-created conundrums until death comes.
Some animals are resources for us:
And the cattle, He has created them for you; in them there is warmth (warm clothing), and numerous benefits, and of them you eat. (16:5)
And of the cattle (He produces) some for carrying burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for he is an open foe to you. (6:142)
And indeed, for you in livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from that which is in their bellies, and for you in them are numerous benefits, and from them you eat. (23:21)
Similarly, some animals are resources for each other. They have a life cycle and way of life, and threats to them, that are different from our way of life and the threats we face.
We slaughter animals for meat as per the capacity God has granted us - they don't have such capabilities, so get their food by chasing and hunting. To say they shouldn't do that, is to deny their nature. It's to say an animal shouldn't act as an animal.
To expect that if there is a God then no one should even fall down and if they do a feather down pillow should magically appear to cushion their fall, and if it doesn't how cruel is that, is to be unrealistic. It's demanding a magic world where everything is perfect according to how your personal reasoning expects perfect to be.
You talk about suffering and how cruel it is. Yet if you go and see some people enduring what we'd perceive to be extreme suffering, and you ask them how they are, they praise God and give thanks to Him. That is truly humbling. While we sit here whinging why why why, how cruel and what kind of God is that, they thank God, and look to those below them.
Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger of Allah (peace and salutations of Allah be upon him) said:
“Look at those who are beneath you and do not look at those who are above you, lest you belittle the favors Allah conferred upon you.”
Sunan Ibn Majah (sahih) English reference : Vol. 1, Book 37, Hadith 4142
Arabic reference : Book 37, Hadith 4281
As humans, we have good times and bad times, like we have day and night, light and dark, hot and cold.
...Such days (of varying fortunes, good and not so good) We give to men and men by turns... (3:140, part)
Absence of affliction shouldn't be perceived as being a good thing. There are times of trials when mankind rallies together, people open their hearts and pockets and spirits, to a people previously fine but now affected by say, an earthquake. Those people in turn would have previously given to others suffering elsewhere.
For us to demand that God justifies to us every single thing that happens, and that we ought to be able to understand it and agree with it before He carries it out, is not correct. When you look down at earth from outer space, we are not even mere specks, not even as comparatively big as ants. And if we think we know best, this verse is worth pondering over:
... over every person endowed with knowledge is the All-Knowing. (12:76, part)
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
He also doesn't seem to have a concept of free will given his repeated:
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If God created everything then God created evil.
Really gets tiresome after a while..
If there was no free will then they'd find something else to be pissed about..
It is like when you assign a number to a particular procedure say scrubbing and there's always the buffoon that says why not four or why not six just because five isn't to his liking and for some completely random reason not a seasoned thought..
If you don't want to play the game don't just don't bug the heck out of everyone with you!
We slaughter animals for meat as per the capacity God has granted us - they don't have such capabilities, so get their food by chasing and hunting. To say they shouldn't do that, is to deny their nature. It's to say an animal shouldn't act as an animal.
I didn't say these animals shouldn't do these things. In fact I said that they have no choice but to do these things. I am not judging the mindset and morality of these animals. I am judging the mindset and morality of anybody who would wish such a situation to exist and actually create it into being. And I am judging the mindset and morality of anybody who would consider such a creator good and just and fit to worship.
To expect that if there is a God then no one should even fall down and if they do a feather down pillow should magically appear to cushion their fall, and if it doesn't how cruel is that, is to be unrealistic.
I would agree that would be unreasonable. But that isn't even remotely what I said.
If you are all knowing, and you give your creation free will, then you are doing so knowing that evil will result from this free will. You are therefore creating this evil.
When you sit for an exam if you study hard & are sincere in the pursuit of knowledge you'll pass, if you cheat you'll be punished and if you slack off you'll fail..
what's your point that the teacher is responsible for your behavior and the route you choose to fulfill your course?
More than just that. Look at the links I provided i the previous post. And consider that we have animals on earth that eat each other alive from the inside out, crush them slowly, paralyze them and slowly eat their limbs, catch bugs in webs to be held there helplessly for a long period of time until they are eaten, etc. These animals are often acting on mere instinct, and even when they are not, they have no other means to eat and survive.
Not to mention disease and natural disaster that people had no way of avoiding. I agree it is a bit of a different case when people live in tornado valley in wooden houses, etc, but these things are not always that predictable. People die for no good reason as a result of nature pretty often. This doesn't even address what horrible things people do to each other.
Yes. If we claim that an all powerful God exists then that logically infers that this purported God wants it this way. And if we claim a creator designed all of these ghastly things then I have to conclude such a creator would have to be sadistic and cruel, not kind and loving. And yes, that is my judgment, and yes it is my place to judge any purported concept of God that others may put forth, just as they themselves judge their concepts of God, usually as good and just and worthy of worship, etc.
If God created everything then God created evil.
How do you figure that? I don't see that at all.
Probably both, and stupidity too.
well at the risk of writing myself into a corner, those animals and insects have very specific roles in the world.
..not really a miracle of evolution to narrow them down to such specificity in the food chain.
thats what they were made for?
..but i guess theres is a smaller world than that of humans.
who are able to move freely and eat pretty much whatevers around.
they are different because they have reasoning and a lot more besides.
i mean for instance if i were talking to a person and i reasoned that i was in fact unreasonable towards him. i would have to ask myself why?
iv met people that do the verbal equivalent of slapping everyone in the face.. nothing can be done about it.. because lets face it, what do they have to gain by changing?
the disease state is one that can be encouraged or repressed. its like a recession that happens overnight..
it does not happen overnight.
the crux of the question is if there is any difference between humans and animals, because the behavior of one cannot be used to justify the behavior of the other.
i mean iv heard of a dog eat dog world but i guess thats why im not getting anywhere.
others are more hungry imo.
..and thats why things keep going forward.
insolence and competition.
and people do not die for no reason at all, people die because it is the natural order of things.. i have no idea how to keep other people alive except to not kill them!
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How do you figure that? I don't see that at all.
well iv been driving for only about 12 years now, as long as i dont think things are difficult they are not.
when i look at how complicated things really are, then i understand.
...but then again i passed on my fifth attempt and took more lessons than a reasonable person would have been able to afford.
so i have to think about it a little more.
the creator is not sadistic or cruel, people are.
i mean one mans hero is anothers villain.
its just a case of perception.
there is a god though and there is no compulsion in religion either.
people are not created good or evil.
..or maybe they are.
...well i went for a job interview once that lasted three years of voluntary work and then a few months paid work... fizzling out with me leaving and leaving behind a weeks wage also.
...someone i knew went in and was offered a job on the spot near enough.
something to think about really.
iv seen and heard a lot of things, none that i would take as god.. like yourself.
although i know that islam and the quran are true.
If you are all knowing, and you give your creation free will, then you are doing so knowing that evil will result from this free will. You are therefore creating this evil.
To respond to your post it depends on how you view creation. I think God allows us to do whatever we want. He's not controlling us, but may provide guidance to those that want help or ask for it. Yes he will know the outcome but it's not him that is actually doing the bad deed. It's the people that commit sins and they should be responsible.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
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gave us dominion over them not for abuse but for use. In that they fulfill their purpose in this life. Each creation fulfills its purpose in the way it is assigned and designed and death is very much a part of this existence. It is the end of the life of this world but not an end to the soul.
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