We all argue that something cannot come from nothing when an atheist tries to prove his point you say god created us. But I am just curious how did nothing become into something which became god? I am not here to argue against anyones responses but just would like to hear people's opinions.
yes cosmic pathos if that is the most rational way to live your live islam then please live it. Whatever makes one happy during this short span on this earth is what you should do. I am contempt with the fact that I mean nothing to humanity in general as you are contempt with the belief that there is something waiting for you in the afterlife. No problem if it helps your quality of life then it is the correct thing to do. But my only complaint is us human beings as a whole define and segregrate ourselves based on religion and not based on who we are as human beings. I believe this should change and is very wrong.
yes hulk for artificially made machine. Again Hulk I am not saying that there is not a possibility of God as I am an agnostic and I claim that I absolutely have no idea to what or who is the creator. I believe it is jumping the gun to call "Allah" the god. Why can't we just say there is likely a god but I do not know what he looks like or who he is?
I was talking about a Creator because the thread was about the existence of a Creator. Artificially made machines are made by men, yes. But we mustn't overlook that the materials involved in manufacturing are itself a design and a work of art.
Who is God? God is the Creator of the Universe.
What God looks like? No muslim will be able to answer this! We believe that God is beyond anything we can imagine as anything we can imagine would be in the realm of creation and God is not a creation.
I was talking about a Creator because the thread was about the existence of a Creator. Artificially made machines are made by men, yes. But we mustn't overlook that the materials involved in manufacturing are itself a design and a work of art.
Who is God? God is the Creator of the Universe.
What God looks like? No muslim will be able to answer this! We believe that God is beyond anything we can imagine as anything we can imagine would be in the realm of creation and God is not a creation.
Hulk I agree with every thing you say. Only difference between us is you call him allah I say I don't know
Do you agree?
Hulk I agree with every thing you say. Only difference between us is you call him allah I say I don't know
That's good joboman I think we have at least achieved a better understanding of each other's perspective.
I, like many other muslims who were either born into muslim families or converted to Islam have my own reasons as to why I believe Islam is the true path.
For you to say you don't know is quite fair as at some point we have to admit that we don't know, it's certainly better than pretending to know. Maybe right now from your perspective you believe that it is absolutely impossible to know which "religion" is true or whether any of the religions are true at all. You believe that it is impossible to know for sure and that is why you rather call yourself an agnostic than something else.
Consider this. If you believe that the Universe has a Creator. Think about how we as human beings have the ability to deduce that there is a Creator, we were only able to do so by using our Intellect correct? For me, it is this reason that if we want to find the truth we should use our intellect and reason as guides.
I certainly don't believe in "blind" faith and neither do a lot of other muslims. The problem with blind faith is that it is blind! If I tell you that from now onwards that for the rest of your life you must pray five times a day at specific time slots, avoid consumption of alcohol, stop eating food that aren't halal, fast for a month during ramadan, cover up (if you're a woman) etc.
It sure sounds like a lot of things to do out of blind faith isn't it? Yet, there are plenty of people who convert to Islam. Is it not worth wondering why these people are willing to add these little "hassles" in their life? Well, I believe that for most of them it is because they truly believe that they have found the truth. Truth that they cannot deny.
It's like saying "I don't care how much hassle this religion is going to add to my life, this is the truth and I must follow it!"
Of course, I use the word "hassle" because that's what it looks like to a lot of people, but the truth is its nothing like that to the one who believes. To the one who believes, it is the commitment to worldly life that is a hassle.
Much like Superman finds it a hassle to be Clark Kent! Whenever he hears someone needing to be saved, he will try and come up with an excuse so that he can go out and be Superman. You can actually find threads in the forums where muslims talk about finding time to pray out of their busy schedules.
I'm not trying to convince you that Islam is the truth, what I'm trying to do is just to share my own personal perspective with you. If another muslim responses he might give you his own perspective and that is fine as well.
And if I may add to what I said about "blind faith", on some level there is some form of "blind faith" involved. For example, if you ask me why can't a muslim eat pork. I can give you many reasons as to why we shouldn't eat pork but the ultimate reason is that it is because I believe that God has forbidden it. So even if there are absolutely no "scientific" reasons to avoid pork I would still avoid it because I believe it is forbidden.
As muslims, we recognise that there are things we know and things we don't know. Think about how a parent often forbids a child from doing something, the child may not understand it from his/her perspective but the parent knows better, and the child trusts the parent. This is what I meant with the example above.
you say I contradicted myself. Can you please show me one post where I did?
Yes of course, I made the claim so now time to present the evidence.
In your first post you said,
format_quote Originally Posted by joboman24
We all argue that something cannot come from nothing when an atheist tries to prove his point you say god created us. But I am just curious how did nothing become into something which became god? I am not here to argue against anyones responses but just would like to hear people's opinions.
Read the red bit in particular OK.
We present our opinions and you argue against us.
And since this is the Comparative section, that's an even bigger contradiction. Maybe I am too judgmental but that looks to me like you are being dishonest.
If I may say something about bro joboman, the good thing about him is that he really isn't a troll and neither is he here to cause any trouble. You see, unlike most trolls he doesn't come in here pretending to be some expert on Islam and then simply mindlessly use typical islamophobe arguments on the forum. Rather, the questions he ask are more on God in general which I feel is a good approach because even though basically all religions believe in a God. Our concepts of God may not necessarily be the same. The simplest example I can give would be Christianity's concept and Islam's concept.
You will find that there are a lot of atheists that reject the idea of God because they have the wrong concept of God. A lot of the times it is mistaken as "an invisible man in the sky", this of course has nothing to do with Islam's concept of God. We as muslims recognise that God is beyond the created world. We believe that there is existence beyond what our five senses can experience, and we have intellect that we use to deduce that there are things that are beyond our five senses.
Take Bacteria for example, absolutely invisible unless we use a microscope. Does that mean that bacteria doesn't exist before the invention of the microscope? Of course not.
Take Bacteria for example, absolutely invisible unless we use a microscope. Does that mean that bacteria doesn't exist before the invention of the microscope? Of course not.
Nailed it, MashaAllaah.
“Indeed the patient will be given their reward without account.” :love: { Qur’aan, Chapter 39, Verse 10 }
Well if we leave it as a hypothesis or even a possible precedent we dont need to ask why such a thing should follow through - in the same way you cannot deductively prove the existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotentent, incorporeal, omniscient...etc. Creator
We can reject the hypothesis as long as we can show the hypothesis leads to a contradiction however.
You haven't shown that the religious hypothesis shows contradiction especially since it isn't a hypothesis at all, it is the natural inclination of man and from childhood's hour. nor have you offered a reasonable demonstrable explanation to the world you find yourself in using the so-called scientific method. You're in fact starting with a double negative. No starting point that doesn't loan itself to some absurd fairy tale and no concession to the obvious. So by what authority do you write?
best,
Last edited by جوري; 05-27-2012 at 05:42 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
hafiza you do have to realize while 85% of the population believes in a "god" that it is the cause of it being passed on from generation to generation from 1000+years ago and people in most cultures either didn't have the right to believing in no god otherwise they would be disowned by their family or the lack of education about other things in life such as philosophy. As you can clearly see the last decade the trend is going harder than it ever has in history towards agonistisicm/atheism.
where do you come up with this nonsense? Disbelief has existed side by side religion since the first cognizant noetic man came to the scene. Won't you please do some homework before you write. I hate when people take up web space to release mental farts as if epiphanies!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
where do you come up with this nonsense? Disbelief has existed side by side religion since the first cognizant noetic man came to the scene. Won't you please do some homework before you write. I hate when people take up web space to release mental farts as if epiphanies!
Yes sure disbelief has always existed to a point. There always have to be disbelievers not 100% can be believers. But there were a lot less disbelievers in the past compared to now due to people not being able to read or write and understanding different concepts of logic and reasoning. Nonbelievers of any religion in the past was also the source of banishment and executions from their respective culture. But these days you are allowed to believe in what you want to or not want to believe in and not face major repercussions.
Yes sure disbelief has always existed to a point. There always have to be disbelievers not 100% can be believers. But there were a lot less disbelievers in the past compared to now due to people not being able to read or write and understanding different concepts of logic and reasoning. Nonbelievers of any religion in the past was also the source of banishment and executions from their respective culture. But these days you are allowed to believe in what you want to or not want to believe in and not face major repercussions.
Not only is that utterly false and conjectural but you've absolutely no way of proving it! It is another atheist/agnostic mental fart as is usually let out with hopes the stench would become so impossible that no one would hang around to challenge it. Why do you feel the need to write things as if an authority on a matter which you can't even compose a retrospective study on. Is it a thing of self importance or you simply fancy that you can outwit theists on the account you believe the hype that your brand of life style choice is that of a 'free thinker'?
Furthermore, I'd go so far to say that the people of old were far more pioneering than the folks of now a days at least they thought, they invented, they reflected. Physics was intuitive to them they left us magnificent literature and erected wonders of architecture with what that entails of mathematics and they didn't rely on some neat gadgetry to do so. They weren't sitting in front of the TV and other forms of media just receiving input all day and putting nothing out. A medieval bard could recite a thousand page poem in one setting and now a days you can't get a person to do a simple mathematical problem without resorting to a computer or calculator.
People who wanted to be atheist could always be atheist. Unless they wanted to be atheists simply to gain attention and cause a stir and it doesn't really cost anyone anything to disbelieve, there is nothing to do, no rituals to perform nada. and would go so far to say they were the most vocal voice.
Generations after generations of disbelievers is all there was in fact it was the believers who were usually tortured and ridiculed or crucified look at the story of any messenger sent to a people, the whole term 'Don't kill the messenger' was coined out of that phenomenon.
I guess in your mind or in Hollywood you can create the reality you want and expect us not to challenge it.
It doesn't cost much to be an atheist, no thought process is involved. You do nothing and live for materialism and pray to the bottom line so pray do tell of the logic and reason you speak of?
If god is time then it is very easily understood that god created nothing from something. Considering a person holds the old theory words have the ultimate power. Reality is nothing but a part of time as is consciousness and matter because all of these are put in place by time. So on a theoretical standpoint god as could the universe exist. But you have to be a crazy fringe scientist to think of life in such a matter. So many parts of god we toss aside without realizing their worth such as the power of voice and thought. http://www.homesteadweaver.com/andrewgustin/igity.htm
we will agree to disagree then. Coming up with I am delusional such and such has no backing to it. At least prove a point please.
You're the one making the claim for logic and reason I believe the onus is on you to substantiate rather than the coward' way out? All the religious stories are redolent with ridicule from atheists toward the believers for which they incured a certain wrath. But what of the atheist manifesto does it paint a different picture of logic and reason and fear of profession of godlessness?
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Yes sure disbelief has always existed to a point. There always have to be disbelievers not 100% can be believers. But there were a lot less disbelievers in the past compared to now due to people not being able to read or write and understanding different concepts of logic and reasoning.
First of all, man has always had the age old art of narrative safeguarded throughout history. Infact, this art was taken so seriously that by the end of the last millenia, it had been re-titled the Science of Hadeeth in the Arabian peninsula, because the Arabs had maintained the art and improved on its authenticity when the rest of the world was relying on paper that burns and ink that fades... You should maybe try actually learning a bit of real history instead of making claims from opinion. How you can guage whether there were more believers in the past than today is beyond me to understand.
What yardstick did you measure their faith by? Where the people of the past more pious than those at present? How can you know such things? Also, what if I consider myself to be a believer but in Gods eyes, I'm not? What then>??? You have no idea what about the nature of the brash claim you have made and how futile it is to pursue that avenue of thought. Like I said, opinion does not make for fact, or eve hypothesis... produce the circumstantial evidnece to help substantiate your claim and we can go from there - but at this point - seriously? You're out of your depth bro.
format_quote Originally Posted by joboman24
Nonbelievers of any religion in the past was also the source of banishment and executions from their respective culture. But these days you are allowed to believe in what you want to or not want to believe in and not face major repercussions.
Secondly, Islam - there is no compulsion in religion. You either worship Allah, or you don't. It's a personal choice. Simple. There was no banishment. Only if the social order was compromised - would certain individuals be "banished" or "exiled". Mostly, people were left free to worship as they pleased - but idol worship was not tolerated. I mean - after all, who can tolerate stupidity?
and I have seen art depicting the expulsion from Eden dating that far back. Imagine that.
Atheists for the most part are very short sighted. Not only is there no life beyond the materialism they see, there don't seem to be any other civilizations beyond their western one and thus their whole modus operandi is borne only from the christian dark ages and christian intolerance...
and why would they have a culture beyond that when they're so conditioned to think they're superior and more civilized?
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