I am reading a book, 'The Bible Came from Arabia', by Kamal Salibi. The back cover states (in blue with my emphasis in CAPS):
"I believe I have made a remarkable discovery, which should make possible a radical reinterpretation of the Old Testament"
Kamal Salibi, professor of history at the American University of Beirut, reveals startling linguistic evidence which controversially suggests that Judaism originated not in Palestine BUT IN WEST ARABIA (my emphasis).
Whilst looking at a gazetteer of Saudi place names, he noticed a remarkable concentration of Biblical place names in an area 600km long by 200km wide (the region of 'Asir). Ancient Hebrew, like Arabic, was written without vowels. Salibi believes that the scholars of the sixth century might have added the vowels WRONGLY when standardizing texts, and so he went back to the original unvowelled Old Testament to prove his theory - and it did.
The geography of Palestine has never corresponded in any way to the apparently specific stories in the Bible. Salibi's research authenticates the events as history for the first time - but with an ARABIAN SETTING.
This book has caused a predictable storm amongst academics and politicians. The issue is of such importance that everyone should read the evidence first-hand.
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
roughly translates to: Firras As-Sawah- Time for a secular humanistic philosophy? Isn't that exactly how you refer to yourself as well but in Arabic so that the members are fooled by your purpose here?
is that for me?!!!! I referred to myself as a secular humanistic philosopher?
I think that you misquoted me as I did not write that.
and those were the words I described myself with (in Arabic) no less no more ..
format_quote Originally Posted by لميس
a man who is a self professed 3ilmani
correction : In Arabic ,the word used for " secular" is 3almani not 3ilmani ...
format_quote Originally Posted by لميس
because a man who is a self professed 3ilmani and whose views you openly admire or at least bring into the scene as authoritative
that depends on what view he propose .... eg; I admire SOME of Bart Ehrmans' views regarding the bible but not his view in God ....
format_quote Originally Posted by لميس
[/SIZE].. so I am rather curious as to your intentions and what it is that you consider to be 3aql wa i3tidal in said context?[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
i3tidal (moderation) is lots of things ,not to be begot,to be tolerant,avoid the radical opinions, to know how to lead a civil discussion (some people here lack such manner badly).......
3aqel I meant by that ,not to follow anything"especially the interpretations" blindly ......
A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. Proverbs 14:15
I'm afraid you might next post ,accuse me of being christian cause I admired such biblical verse.....
I have only begun reading the book. An interesting point the author made is that ancient Hebrew was written with consonants (e.g. YHWH) only like Arabic. Hebrew was not used for common communication for almost 1,000 years and he says that the language was reconstructed by the Masoretes between 500-800 A.D. by adding vowels for vocalization. (We can only imagine the difficulties we would have today if the Quran was left without vowel marks.) The author claims that errors were made in reconstructing the language and that going back to the original texts revealed patterns in commonality between these texts and Arabian place names.
yes exactly ..that is his approach ...
but following that approach ,for eg; guess where he suggests the Egypt of the bible & Quran, to be?!!
It is a small town,located some where in Asir Province "a province of Saudi Arabia located in the southwest of the country" ....
and those were the words I described myself with (in Arabic) no less no more ..
indeed.
correction : In Arabic ,the word used for " secular" is 3almani not 3ilmani ...
semantics the same way you wrote firas when it is faras.. we're not arabizing English or vice versa.
that depends on what view he propose .... eg; I admire SOME of Bart Ehrmans' views regarding the bible but not his view in God ....
Admiration should be backed up with something other than a profession of the mere term 'refutation' do you not agree?
i3tidal (moderation) is lots of things ,not to be begot,to be tolerant,avoid the radical opinions, to know how to lead a civil discussion (some people here lack such manner badly).......
3aqel I meant by that ,not to follow anything"especially the interpretations" blindly ......
A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. Proverbs 14:15
Manners and shyness play no role where one seeks the truth or when desires to mislead (without evincing if I may add) thus rendering '3aql, wa3tidal' mere words with no substance..
I'm afraid you might next post ,accuse me of being christian cause I admired such biblical verse.....
Must be regional humor- I am not sure what's funny?.. unless creating a scenario in your head and presuming the reaction of the other person falls under the accolades you propose to possess?..
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I know it ... you must continue harshly,whatever argument till those who converse with you stop it, and then fancy yourself that you won (as if you are in battle not a civil discussion) ....
the only thing that made me start conversation with you, is your serious,rude accusation against me ....
you realize what you accused me with? "a hypocrite blasphemer"
how many people complained of your bad manners,your foul mouth?
they are many whether Muslims or non Muslims ...
you really one of the negatives of that good board, that should be seriously dealt with.....
discussion is over ....
but my discussion with my descent Bro Mustafa will continue for sure
I know it ... you must continue whatever argument till those who converse with you stop it, and then fancy yourself that you won (as if you are in battle not a civil discussion) ....
the only thing that made me start conversation with you, is your serious,rude accusation against me .... you really one of the negatives of that board that should be seriously dealt with.....
discussion is over ....
This is a base response expected from an adolescent and is obvious that when you can't defend your arguments with something substantive you prefer a temper tantrum. I am not having any arguments with you. I am bringing to light your philosophy and your self professed accolades so you can define them and so we'd have a better understanding of your purpose & agenda. There's no harm in that at all- it is called 'free speech' moderates/mo3tadils adore it.. but I am curious as how you'd like to deal with me 'seriously' oh 3aqlani and mo3tadil?
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Muslims believe that Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael to the area of the Kabba in Mecca and left them there. I had wondered how he could have traveled from the area of Palestine down to Mecca.
A trip like that takes less than a month,and no wonder in making that trip ,as many Arabs used to have it regularly in old times ....
but that is not the question ,the question is where did Abraham live ? and we should answer as much as possible ,in accordance with Islam ....
tips:
1- does the quran locate where Abraham lived?
2- we have a quran hint that,Abraham was a contemporary to Lot ,and his folk seems to be geographically near the folk of Abraham,so where Lot lived?
3- also the people of Madyan were near where the people of Lot lived,according to the Quran.
4-Abraham's father is called in the Quran "Athar" ,where was that name common in the past?
etc.....
the answers of those questions get us clue to the location
also the people of Madyan were near where the people of Lot lived,according to the Quran.
A lot more than the honourable prophet Lot AS happened in Madyan / Midian, my brother...
Mount Sinai isn't in the Sinai Peninsula either... seems the significance of Arabia in relevance to religious history is ... well judge for yourself - what you will find may leave you dazzled (I call it one of the biggest religous cons in history):
Let us retrace the Exodus journey of Prophet Musa alaihi salam and his Bani Israel tribes out of Egypt, the miracle of the Red Sea Crossing and their encampment at the foot of the Tur Sina - Jabal Musa.....more miracles and of course Musa As-Samiri's a.ka. Dajjal handiwork - the Golden Calf!
The Exodus totaled around 600,000 men, so if you were to take in all the women & children, the total number would easily swell to more than 2,000,000 people.....If anyone has been to the traditional Mt.Sinai in Egypt, you would have doubts of how 2,000,000 people would ever have made an encampment there.
The current traditional Mt. Sinai did not exist until 2000 years after the Exodus. The following series of pictures will prove once and for all that the Real Sinai is in North West Arabia at the Jabal Al-Lawz Moutain range...PLUS the SAUDIS have no intention of announcing this great find to the world.
Ofcourse, at this point, photographic proof is required:
Fake Sinai VS Real Sinai
This means the route of the Exodus would look like this:
Let's get a view from the ground, the Bani Israel fleeing from Pharaoh's army only to face a body of water.This is in Wadi Watir:
The Beach at the Red Sea Crossing Site:
A Column in Nuweiba - contained Phoenician engravings, was said to be built during the reign of
Prophet Sulaiman alaihi salam to commemorate a great miracle of Allah:
<Note: During the 6 Day War, Israeli soldiers chiseled off most of the engravings!>
Another column found nearby:
3D Models of the Red Sea at the "Crossing Site"; this is how the ocean floor looks like at Gulf of Aqaba...Subhanallah! There's an underwater land bridge:
Looking across the Red Sea from Saudi Arabia to the beach at Nuweiba; Imagine the fear and panic felt by the people,
getting trapped between the Sea and Pharoah's Army out to kill them all:
Further proof that Pharoah and his Army perished in this location...divers we're sent in; and this is what they found...
Chariot wheel:
Chariot of Thutmoses IV:
The Miracle about the Pharaoh in the Quran - a well preserved non-mummified Pharaoh exactly as mentioned in these verses:
10:90 (Asad) And We brought the children of Israel across the sea; and thereupon Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them with vehement insolence and tyranny, until [they were overwhelmed by the waters of the sea. And] when he was about to drown, [Pharaoh] exclaimed: [110] "I have come to believe that there is no deity save Him in whom the children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender themselves unto Him!"
10:91 (Asad) [But God said:] "Now? [111] -when ever before this thou hast been rebelling [against Us], and hast been among those who spread corruption?
10:92 (Asad) [Nay,] but today We shall save [preserve] only thy body, [112] so that thou may be a [warning] sign unto those who will come after thee: for, behold, a good many people are heedless of Our messages!
Side note, a dejavu event will take place when this same Dajjal would think he have cornered the Muslims at a Masjid in Damascus, only to have Isa Son Of Mary descend from the Heavens and give chase to him!
Verily transgressors will meet horrific ends, just like what happened to the Pharaoh - a God wannabe.
By now, photo' really won't be as convincing as some video's... the following is very exciting. If you like history, you'll love this:
A three part series which proves that Sinai is in Arabia, this one is really well documented:
And this one too:
And this one also:
Convinced? I'd like to hear your opinions
Scimi
Last edited by Scimitar; 05-29-2012 at 03:13 AM.
Reason: quote
The Exodus totaled around 600,000 men, so if you were to take in all the women & children, the total number would easily swell to more than 2,000,000 people.....If anyone has been to the traditional Mt.Sinai in Egypt, you would have doubts of how 2,000,000 people would ever have made an encampment there.
Scimi
you know Scimi, the writer (saleebi) is not arguing against the accuracy of the Bible (he believes in it as totally accurate) but he argues that its readers misunderstood it .....
he wants to erase the whole scene in Palestine etc... and go south near Yemen....
he really passed the limits ,and shocked the scholars (Muslims,Christians,Jews,atheists)....
his theory not only against Quran,Bible but archaeological evidences as well ...
I think better we discuss item by item ...
I started with the issue of Abraham , and hope we all focus on it ....
do you think Abraham's journey while having Ismael ,wasn't north west of Arabia to Mecca?
I've read some of his work, and Kamal Salibi has some valid points - but goes wrong in some places in my opinion. Here is where I got "fascinated" by him. Basically, the argument made by the book is that most of the events in the Old Testament (all the events before 586 BCE) did not take place in Palestine, but rather in Western Arabia, what we today now know as the Hijaz region.
This is interesting information from Sahih Bukhari:
Narrated Abu Hurairah :
The angel of death was sent to Moses and when he went to him, Moses slapped him severely, spoiling one of his eyes. The angel went back to his Lord, and said, "You sent me to a slave who does not want to die." Allah restored his eye and said, "Go back and tell him (i.e. Moses) to place his hand over the back of an ox, for he will be allowed to live for a number of years equal to the number of hairs coming under his hand." (So the angel came to him and told him the same). Then Moses asked, "O my Lord! What will be then?" He said, "Death will be then." He said, "(Let it be) now." He asked Allah that He bring him near the Sacred Land at a distance of a stone's throw. Allah's Apostle said, "Were I there I would show you the grave of Moses by the way near the red sand hill." (Bukhari)
Feel free to find out where this RED SAND HILL is located.....any input is highly appreciated.
We all know that Prophet Musa alaihi salam never made into the Holy Lands; he died when the Bani Israeel were roving bands roaming the land of MADYAN/MIDIAN in ARABIA.
Another interesting Hadith about the Isra' Journey:
Jibreel said: "Alight and pray here." The Holy Prophet did so then remounted. Jibreel said: "Do you know where you prayed?" He said no. Jibreel said: "You prayed in Madyan at the tree of Musa." The Burâq continued his lightning flight, then Jibreel said: "Alight and pray here." He did so then remounted, then Jibreel said: "Do you know where you prayed?" He said no. Jibreel said: "You prayed at the mountain of Sînâ' where Allah addressed Musa." Then he reached a land where the palaces of al-Shâm became visible to him. Jibreel said to him: "Alight and pray." He did so and remounted, then the Burâq continued his lightning flight and Jibreel said: "Do you know where you prayed?" He said no. Jibreel said: "You prayed in Bayt Laham, where `Isa ibn Maryam was born."... He continued travelling until he reached the city of the Hallowed House and he entered it by its Southern gate. He dismounted the Burâq and tied it at the gate of the mosque, using the ring by which the Holy Prophet tied it before him. "We entered the mosque from a gate through which the sun and the moon could be seen when they set. I prayed in the mosque for as long as Allah wished." – (Nasa'i, al-Bayhaqi)
This avenue of thought led me into some serious differences of opinion with Kamal Salibi. Strangely enough, I found some of the works of Christian explorers to hold more weight... but since we're on the topic of histroy, and we're talking old prophets. Here is something I think you should really take a look at, if you fascination for archaeological mystery - then this is something that is another dot, that needs connecting... a clue, if you like:
Question you really gotta ask yourself is, "Why is Musa AS story the most mentioned in the Quran?"
Scimi
EDIT: I almost forgot, you asked:
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar
do you think Abraham's journey while having Ismael ,wasn't north west of Arabia to Mecca?
I believe that Ibraheem AS indeed stopped in "The Valley of Bakkah" which is indeed, Makkah today. I also believe the whole account ala the hajj ritual in Islam. Why do you ask?
I finished reading and forwarded the article to a scholar who wrote me this back:
من بحثي رئيس الجمعية هو عيسى الشارقي وهو يخفي سريرته بالكلام العلمي المنمق حتى يخدع العامة، من يعرفه جيدا يقول عنه شيعي علماني
Here is some comments from Shia3 asking for their death
أتقوا الله يامن تقوموا بالدفاع عن تلك الفئة الضالة المضلة فهم ومنطلق الشرع كما اجتمعت فقهاء الشيعة منهم السيد الخوئي وكثير منهم على بطلان دعوتهم ودعوهم إلى الكف ولكن لم يكفوا عن ذلك ولا زلت أذكر إيمانهم بهذه الفكرة الضالة كما قال أحدهم أنني مؤمن بهذه الفكرة وصحتها بإيماني بوجودك أمامي فلا تحاول إقناعي بالرجوع عنها رغم الكثير منهم من رجعوا وتابوا بعد ما عرفوا بأنهم ضللوا وإليكم نموذج للرد عليهم .
هذا الإستفتاء عينة عنهم :
السؤال:
ظهرت في البحرين قبل 15 سنه تقريبا بدعة السفارة الكاذبه وقد ظهرت فتاوى فقهاء الشيعة بالإجماع على أن هذه الجماعة يجب مقاطعتهم ليرجعوا عن غيهم وضلالهم ولكنهم كانوا يعملون في الخفاء واليوم وبعد الإنفراج السياسي أخذا يعملون ويتحركون بقوه؟؟مايلفت للنظر أن هناك آراء من قبل بعض المدعين من طلبة العلوم الدينية يقول بأن هؤلاء لايقاطعون بل لابد من الحوار معهم وإذا لم يقتنعوا يبقى لهم رأيهم لأن الإسلام يحترم أراء الآخرين؟؟ وساعدهم على ذلك هو أن جماعة البدعة قد وضعوا فتاوى على موقعهم في الإنترنت لفتاوى أحتمل كذبها ونسبوها الى مكتب السيد القائد الخامنائي؟؟ ماراى سماحتكم في ذلك؟؟
الجواب:
كل من يقول بالسفارة يعد صاحب بدعه في الدين ودمه هدر .
من أجوبة سماحة السيد كاظم الحائري http://www.alhaeri.org/istifta/page3.html
المتتبع للخطاب الثقافي لهذه الجمعية, يلاحظ بأنها لا تقوم على ثوابت و أسس ثابتة أو صحيحة. فتارة هي إسلامية, بطريقة غير مصرّح بها, و تارة هي حداثية, و أحياناً أخرى لادينية أساساً. خطابها يكتنفه الغموض و الهشّاشة. احياناً تذكرني بالخطاب المسيحي المتشدد عندما يتحدث حول الإسلام و المسلمين و الشقاقات التي تحدث بين أفراد البيت المسلم.
خطابهم كله تشكيك وأوهام و مغالطات في الإسلام و معرفة الله و الكثير من الحقائق التي نؤمن بها.
There is more but just search if you want about their president.
Thus just as I suspected a secular shiite article hidden behind science and articulation. Al7mdullilah my first instincts and even at times basic understanding is usually correct. I'd take it with a grain of salt..
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Muhsin Khan
And among the bedouins round about you, some are hypocrites, and so are some among the people of Al-Madinah, they exaggerate and persist in hypocrisy, you (O Muhammad SAW) know them not, We know them. We shall punish them twice, and thereafter they shall be brought back to a great (horrible) torment. (9:101)
Pickthall
And when a party of them said: O folk of Yathrib! There is no stand (possible) for you, therefor turn back. And certain of them (even) sought permission of the Prophet, saying: Our homes lie open (to the enemy). And they lay not open. They but wished to flee. (33:13)
JazakAllah Khair sis for posting these verses. I knew that Madinah was mentioned; it was the mention of "Yathrib" that I thought wasn't. I simply forgot about verses like these. I need to start reading the Qur'an a lot more than what I'm doing now.
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
Thus just as I suspected a secular shiite article hidden behind science and articulation. Al7mdullilah my first instincts and even at times basic understanding is usually correct. I'd take it with a grain of salt..
Assalamu alaikum, which article are you referring to as I am a bit confused?
Assalamu alaikum, which article are you referring to as I am a bit confused?
wa3lykoum asalaam wr wb
in reference to the subject matter of the origins of the bible- I don't wish to link you to it as it would feel that I am perpetuating shiite ideology..
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I've read some of his work, and Kamal Salibi has some valid points - but goes wrong in some places in my opinion
Assalamu alaikum, Brother Scimi. I appreciate your input. I was intrigued by the possibilities presented by this book, but I have not come to a conclusion as to how much of it to believe. I will use the Quran and hadith as the 'gold standard' and reject what disagrees with it as you indicated you have as well. Your posts are most usually very interesting and bring a different perspective from most others. Jazak Allahu khayran.
wa3lykoum asalaam wr wb
in reference to the subject matter of the origins of the bible- I don't wish to link you to it as it would feel that I am perpetuating shiite ideology..
Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatu'Allahi wa barakatuh, sister. I understand now. Jazak Allahu khayran for the clarification.
I am removing the article due to its dubious nature, see subsequent post on the matter.
I don't want a whole article ,just quote where you claim,he wrote early Muslims were not calling Egypt (misr)..... otherwise, you have to apologize to the readers for your misleading(let alone rude) posts...
format_quote Originally Posted by لميس
in reference to the subject matter of the origins of the bible- I don't wish to link you to it as it would feel that I am perpetuating shiite ideology..
first :where is that difference between shia and sunna with regard to the subject matter of the origins of the bible?
second:you believe quoting shia (or even atheist), to the subject matter of the origins of the bible ..is a propaganda for shia .... are you serious ?!!!
the book under discussion " the bible came from Arabia" that Bro Mustafa brought was written by A christian ,does it mean he makes propaganda for Christianity?!!
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