Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1”

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

If God were to judge me fairly and justly, then I would not achieve salvation for the things I have done in my life.
If I ever achieve salvation, it will not be through my own efforts, rather it will be because God is not only just, but is forgiving and merciful.

Peaceful greetings. All except one of the surahs of the Quran begin with Bismi'Allah irRahmani irRaheem, In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful (Saheeh International). The mercy of God is orders of magnitude greater than any mercy we know as humans. If I remember correctly a person was forgiven and granted entrance into Paradise by giving water to a dog, but the flip side is another was sent to Hell for starving a cat. Like you said, if I achieve salvation it will not be because I earned it through any effort of my own, but rather by the grace and mercy of my Lord.

If God can forgive me, then I pray that he can forgive all people. Even if I killed someone, God could then raise that person to a better and eternal life, God can put right all my wrong doings.

This reminds me of Prophet Moses who had killed an Egyptian for mistreating a man. There is hope for redemption from any crime. I am also reminded of the hadith about an adulterer came to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) admitting her sin that resulted in her being stoned to death. In Islam, punishment in this life for a crime or sin is a cleansing act and we have the concept of offsetting a sin with a good deed. However, ultimately God is our judge and He alone knows the intentions in our hearts.

I have family and friends of many religions and no religion, I pray that they might all have eternal salvation, even if they do not become a Catholic as I am, and somehow this helps me find an inner peace. In the spirit of praying for mercy and forgiveness for all people

I understand and appreciate this hope, but it is not consistent with my faith. I pray for guidance to the truth for those who are not Muslims. Ultimately, God is the Master of Judgement Day and I believe there will be those who enter Paradise that we would have judged as going to Hell and vice versa as well. I believe we are best to not judge one another, but at the same time I do believe we have a responsibility to share what we believe to be the truth with others who believe differently.

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

I have enjoyed our discussion about God and our beliefs over the years, Mustafa. May we both be the richer, more knowledgeable and understanding of each other for it.

And I have enjoyed our discussions as well. I have learned both from what you, Eric H and Grace Seeker have written and, odd as it may seem, from my composing of responses to you. I am presently listening to a lecture series, 'The Atributes of God in Islam' by Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and Dr. Umar Abd-Allah http://sandala.org/store/cds/the-att...-god-in-islam/ These two scholars are doing an excellent job with the task at hand and I highly recommend these lectures for anyone who wants to learn more about the Islamic understanding of the One God.

And pray that we meet again in paradise.

I hope in the mercy of my Lord to forgive me and others who He has graciously allowed to be a part of my life. A dear sister on this forum has held out hope to me for mercy to be shown to my parents and others in my family who have passed without the Islamic faith. To soothe my heart I place my trust in God and hope His mercy will be extended to others as well. I am remided of Jesus' response in the Quran 5:118 "If You do punish them, they are Your servant: If You do forgive them, You are the Exalted in power, the Wise."

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings and peace be with you Kyle; welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy your stay.



A man can be a son, husband and father, water can also be steam and ice, but I think all these three in one analogies miss the point.

John 10.30
The Father and I are one."

Jesus very clearly knows he is not the Father, yet he says the Father and I are one, and I believe the oneness of God refers to purpose, relationship, truth, love and unity. The opposite to being as one is disunity, in theory Christianity should be as ‘one’ because there is One God, one Jesus and the one church that Jesus founded. But we know that Christianity is divided into thousands of denominations, so we are not as one with each other.



It does not make sense to me when we say that God has no beginning, but I just have to accept it as true, and I have spent countless sleepless nights trying to fathom out infinity. When things do not make sense to me, there seems to be two options, there is an absence of truth in the statement; or the statement is true; but I do not understand.

In the spirit of praying to one God,

Eric

Eric,
I understand that the Trinity is complex, and as a Catholic we would call it the "Mystery of Faith." To me, if one believes in the Trinity they probably don't understand it fully, but they understand an essence of it. They just believe in one God who has manifested himself in flesh, and the Holy Spirit (which Muslims believe in too, the Ruh)

They ask thee concerning the Spirit.
Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord:
Of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you."
If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration:
Then wouldst thou find none to plead thy affair in that matter against Us.

surah17: 85-86 Al Isra' (The Night Journey)
Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, 1989.)

Verily it is We who give life and death;
And to Us is the Final Goal.

surah 50:43 Qaf
(Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, Amana Corporation, 1989.)

The Qur'an uses two terms "Ruh-Allah" and "Ar-Ruh-Al-Qudus" for the Spirit of God. Such is the case in the following references: "We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs [of Allah's sovereignty], and we supported him with the Holy Spirit [ar-Ruh-al Qudus]," (Surah 2, Al-Baqarah, The Cow: 87)."When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit [al-Ruh al-Qudus], so that the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel . . . and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead, by My permission" (Surah 5 Al-Ma'idah, The Table Spread: 110).
"Go, O my sons, and ascertain concerning Joseph and his brother, and despair not the Spirit of Allah [Ruh-Allah]" (Surah 12, Joseph: 87).

from al-qiyamah org
I really never argue/debate/discuss the Trinity, because it is a complex issue. But, if you accept it as a "mystery" in essence, or perhaps you believe in it but don't fully understand it; this is not problematic, because no one can understand perfection. Therefore, I have no problem with you believing in the Trinity, but as Muslims, we don't embrace such ideas, and see them as idolatry. To be frank, I don't understand the Trinity really well, but it is no longer relevant to me as a Muslim. I believe in One God, who does not have a Son, nor manifested himself in the flesh, etc.

But I do ask that you look at historical Biblical manuscripts of the Gospels and see how many times the word "Son of God" is used in comparison to "Son of Man." Also, if you review the older manuscripts, it becomes clear that the "Son of God" was not really prevalent in the Gospels and were a later addition.