My question is from a philosophical not a theological point of view: is it really logically impossible for God to inhabit human form? Many of the answers here assume an impossibility on the grounds that God cannot become a man in his entirety - for instance:
But why can't it be just an 'aspect' of God that is embodied?
According to Christian doctrine God is omnipresent in both place and time. So even if God is said to inhabit a bush or a human form or anything else, that can never be the 'whole' of God. It wouldn't make sense to say that God is too powerful to come into our presence because he is supposed to be here already.
For us, we only have one consciousness that can focus on one thing at a time. But for God to exist, he has to be aware of what is going on in every person's head simultaneously - not just this second but throughout history and the future.
This is unimaginable for a human. (For instance, there is a rare mental condition which means that some people continue to experience their whole lives and memories as if they are always happening - and it drives them half insane. Imagine that multiplied many billions of times). The best way we can conceive of it is to imagine an infinite number of Gods looking at each circumstance individually, but of course this is just a convenience for our imagination and in no way represents what it must be like to be God.
Therefore, there is no more reason for it to be impossible for God's consciousness to inhabit a human form than anything else. Surely it is not the 'whole' of God's consciousness that inhabits the body, but just an aspect?
Would you agree that if God takes the form of a creation, let's just say a human for the sake of argument, wouldn't that make God's power limited? God has unlimited, infinite power, but if He were to become a human he would need to go to the toilet, eat food, drink water, etc, and these things are not befitting of God. How can an all Powerful God go to the toilet, eat food, drink water. Why would He go from being All-Powerful to something with limited power, it makes no sense logically or rationally. God is, was and will always be free from any imperfections. God is All-Powerful, exalted is He above all creation and imperfections.
Not a single leaf falls from the trees of the Earth without the permission ofAllah سبحانه وتعالى
Would you agree that if God takes the form of a creation, let's just say a human for the sake of argument, wouldn't that make God's power limited?
No and for the same reason as above - because it wouldn't be the totality of God. He continues to be omnipresent in all other times and places so plainly he is not 'limited' to one body or any feature of that body. His consciousness must continue to inhabit all other spaces simultaneously.
There is no logical conflict of the 'infinite' being 'limited' here.
format_quote Originally Posted by Indian Bro
these things are not befitting of God. How can an all Powerful God go to the toilet, eat food, drink water.
This is a slightly separate theme going on this thread which i also don't understand. If such things are part of God's created Nature, in what way are they 'unbefitting'? This is all just part of life.
Once you have made the jump to believing in God, i don't find it an additional 'logical' leap to believe that an aspect of God could inhabit human form. It's a highly radical notion in the history of religious thought but that doesn't make it impossible.
Last edited by Independent; 03-21-2013 at 02:25 PM.
Sophistry truly is the game of the devil innit- Zionists perfected it, they made *****s and villains out of their prophets a loser out of God, homosexuality an art and bow down to satan who is just so misunderstood daily in the media they control.. so why not why not be lesions for the devil.
God cant be mortal and immortal at the same time , hence cant become a man .God is eternal , Simple as that
Again, this matters if you regard the totality of God as being in the human form - but (as i understand it) this is not and cannot be the Christian position because God is omnipresent.
Sophistry truly is the game of the devil innit- Zionists perfected it, they made *****s and villains out of their prophets a loser out of God, homosexuality an art and bow down to satan who is just so misunderstood daily in the media they control.. so why not why not be lesions for the devil.
LOL your posts can be so random. =) It's adorable. Ah anyway...
This topic is pointless. The question should be why would God become a man.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Wow...I just click on any random thread now and see people talking about Zionists. It doesn't matter what the original topic was. You guys are obsessed.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
But why can't it be just an 'aspect' of God that is embodied?
I suppose that could be one way of looking at it. However, I think you run into a major issue when you bring in the claim that Jesus was completely God and completely man (which, from my understanding, is a pretty fundamental/common belief). When you try to maintain that, it seems like you can't help but to run into a few contradictions along the way.
I may have missed something here but I think you're overlooking the obvious: an omnipresent being would naturally be in a human consciousness and a human body, yes, along with the limited abilities that come with it. But He would also be in every other body, and in every insect's body, and every blade of grass, and every wave of the ocean, and every speck of space dust, and every cubic inch of empty space seventeen galaxies away. That one person is nothing special. There is no reason to single it out as housing one of three very particular "aspects". If omnipresence has an effect then it serves as an argument against a specialized kind of "aspect", as it puts everything in creation in the same boat.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 03-21-2013 at 10:46 PM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I may have missed something here but I think you're overlooking the obvious: an omnipresent being would naturally be in a human consciousness and a human body, yes, along with the limited abilities that come with it. But He would also be in every other body, and in every insect's body, and every blade of grass, and every wave of the ocean, and every speck of space dust, and every cubic inch of empty space seventeen galaxies away.
Actually I've been wondering about that too. I was brought up as a Christian but I'm no theologian. I now suspect I may have been wandering somewhat off-piste in my beliefs, as it were...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't omnipresence an Islamic belief too? I must admit I am really struggling to think this one through.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Jesus was completely God and completely man
It wasn't my belief but as I say, I may not have been entirely on brief.
Last edited by Independent; 03-21-2013 at 11:34 PM.
One of the Ninety-Nine Names of Allah (http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/99names.htm) is "The All-Encompassing" or "The All-Embracing". I'm not sure if that amounts to the same or not, but I think that according to The Qur'an He is already both extremely distant from us and closer to us than our own jugular veins. That seems a great deal more appropriate to me than anything a Trinitarian could propose. Incarnation is superfluous.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
Well I thought brother Abdur Rheem made it simple and clear but still some Christians will go to any length to defend the impossible. even after reading the replies from muslims subhan Allah, the question is not
Literal can he or can’t he?? The who concept of the question is to start a dialogue, well in Arabic the question is translated better, into why would God become a man?? But in English this the title advertised for the video but it discusses the whole concept longer than those 3 minutes.
Why there is a problem with this, we believe God is fair and just but you expect him to set unbelievable example for us and we are meant to just accept it with no proofs. Here in points
1. They claim God can do anything by been human who forgets, and does not know things, and in the same time he is God so should know everything, and does not forget things. This is impossible for us human to comprehend let alone believe so how are we going to accept something that does not make any sense, God is full human, and full divine, and our salvation depends on it!!
2. the concept of God coming to earth and living with his creatures, and understanding them, sound like a noble idea but by suggesting this you are claiming God does not know his creations, Dr Zakir answered that claim with an example, if someone invented a vcr, would they need to turn to vcr in order to work out how their creation work?? They normally know how it works, and even provide a manual for it but you are claiming God the all knowing need to do a test drive.
“Would He (God) not know (all about) what He (God) created? He (God) is the subtle and aware.” Quran 67:14 “ألا يعلم من خلق وهو اللطيف الخبير”
3. Why would God come down to earth, be in a woman womb for 9 months, breast fed, and circumcised in the 8th day, eat, drink, and what comes after food!!
4. They claim God came to forgive one sin, got crucified, spat on, humiliated, and there is not one single verse in the bible where Jesus say I am God worship me. Not one clear verse!
5. The bible writers are unknown.
6. how many books are the word of God??
Catholic believe in 73 book Protestants in 66 books The Ethiopian Church believes in 81 books
Which Bible is the word of God? 66, 73 or 81??
7. Jesus use to pray like the Muslims, who is he praying to?? God praying to himself??
“And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt” Mt.26.39
Jesus peace be upon him was mighty messenger, he says so in the bible
[And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.] john17:3
So Christians do what Jesus peace be upon him asked you to do
[Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. ]
I don't understand the point of this thread. Why are we delving into matters that do not concern us? If something is beyond our understanding then surely its better to remain silent then tread into dangerous territory? Allah knows best
of course it concern us, are these claim not against Allah?? It is Gross Blasphemy
[19:88] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son!" [19:89] You have uttered a gross blasphemy.
[19:90] The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble.[19:91] Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son.[19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.[19:93] Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.[19:94] He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.[19:95] All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.” Quran
Also it is our duty
Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." Quran 3:64
One of the Ninety-Nine Names of Allah (http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/99names.htm) is "The All-Encompassing" or "The All-Embracing". I'm not sure if that amounts to the same or not, but I think that according to The Qur'an He is already both extremely distant from us and closer to us than our own jugular veins. That seems a great deal more appropriate to me than anything a Trinitarian could propose. Incarnation is superfluous.
Allaah, the Most Glorious, is above His heavens, over His Throne, separate from His creation; Allah’s knowledge and power is everywhere and in every place. The Prophet (salAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) asked (the slave girl), “Where is Allaah?” She replied, “He is above the sky.” He (salAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) asked (her), “Who am I?” She said, “You are Allaah’s Messenger.” He (salAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said (to her master, “Free her, for she is a believer.” Reported by Muslim (1/537).
It was said to Abu ‘Abdullaah (Imaam Ahmad), “Allaah is above the seventh heaven, over His Throne, separate from His creation. His Power and Knowledge are in every place?” He said, “Yes, He is above the Throne and His Knowledge is in every place.” Reported by al-Khallaal in al-Mukhtasar and its isnaad is Saheeh.
With regards to the Islamic understanding of God, these two verses of the Qur'an are foundational and must always be borne in mind:
There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. [42:11]
Nor is there to Him any equivalent. [112:4]
format_quote Originally Posted by hur575
Also it is our duty
It would be best to deal with one issue at a time and not turn it into an attack on Christianity. Da'wah must be done using wisdom .
i would say that we are very far from discussing what the christian say and understands. There are many things that christians do not believe but they are pretended to be he faith of the Christians. If we would really want to attak the Christian beliefs we should see what Christian say and what Christian mean through their words. For instance, it is a basic fact that christians do believe that Jesus Christ was the Second person of the Trinity, who dwelt in the womb of Mary without being absent from the "place" of His eternal being. Jesus Christ is now fully God as he always was, of the same being as God the Father. He is also fully a human being, sharing our fallen human nature, but without incurring sin. His humanness and his Godness are united without change or mixture. One divine-human Christ, one Person, with two natures.
Also, rearding he Holly Trinity there is a basic distinction between nature or essence or being and person or manner of existence or hypostasis. These are the things that are the basis of the christian understanding.
"the names Father, Son and Spirit, and cause, less and caused, and unbegotten and begotten, and procession contain the idea of separation: for these terms do not explain His essence, butthe mutual relationship(2) and manner of existence(3)."
My above post (the one starting with "I may have missed something here") originally contained a comment along these lines:
"But that's the great thing about the Trinity, Tyrion: it's the first doctrine in history to be its own cop-out. The inconsistency is itself a counter-argument when people point out the inconsistency. No matter what you do, no matter what errors in the idea you find, the Christian can always just clam up and say, 'Jesus was both perfect God and perfect Man.' It's such a brilliant expression. It sounds like a genuine paradox and not just an excuse not to think."
I edited that out because it seemed I was going needlessly and kind of pertly off topic, and I wanted to stick to the "omnipresence" thing under discussion. Perhaps I should've gone with my gut instinct after all. One way or another I've been on message boards too many times not to find certain types of people, or at least certain types of discussion, disconcertingly predictable.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
Nature: an umbrella term given to a general description of the collective whole of an entity's actions over a long term period. "He wouldn't do that: it's not in his nature." Translation: "My observations of his behavior over a long term period lead me to believe that it is not typical for him to do this sort of thing."
Essence: the core or central part of something. "The essence of Islam is submission, even though there's a lot more to it than that."
Person: An entity. Something capable of deliberate action, as opposed to an inanimate object. "You know, sometimes I feel like that tree is staring at me? Almost talking to me? It's almost like it's a person. Not a human being, but some kind of person."
Hypostatis: A complicated theory from Greek philosophy which was eagerly seized upon by early Trinitarians who were desperate to find a way to justify the nonsensical nature of their doctrine. They found in the idea a faint coincidental resemblance to their own doctrine so they lost no chance to distort and misrepresent it, even though the real hypostatis contains strong elements of what might vaguely be called paganism and pantheism. I don't know how to explain it except to say that it's closer to the white cloth analogy from I Heart Huckabees than to Trinitarian Christianity.
I hope we've cleared that up.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 03-22-2013 at 01:28 AM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
the greek terms were not the only ones in which the christians spoke about their concepts. They tried to speak to everyone in their own language and words, but for this they needed to transfigurate those words because they tried to show things that were never known before and realities that were not present in the world before.
I did not get a single one of those words from a dictionary. I'm just explaining the situation. In my own words.
Let me put it this way: a person and that person's nature are inseparable. In fact, one's "nature" is largely just a matter of semantics, as I have explained above. A person is a person. Either you're talking about one entity in particular or you aren't, and if you are then that one guy's actions are separate from everyone else's, and his traits are separate from anyone else's traits as well. Whose actions are you talking about? Whose traits? You Christians can build all the Byzantine monuments of pure semantics and circular reasoning you can like over this fact but all you're doing is trying to bury it.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 03-22-2013 at 01:56 AM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
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even after reading the replies from muslims subhan Allah, the question is not
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