Maybe in English :P Try to find me anyone who will say that of an Arabic Bible.
My impression is that, by comparison, Islam is more rule-focussed on the grounds that the principle cannot be separated from the rules.
The reason for this assertion?
'Turn the other cheek' is perhaps the single most morally impactful of all the sayings of Jesus. The line you quote from the Qu'ran (“Not equal are the good deed and the evil deed. Repel with that which is fairer and behold, he between whom and thee thereis enmity shall be as if he were a loyal friend.” ) is not entirely equivalent in meaning. For one thing is it a little harder to understand. In fact it seems to be closer to a different Christian principle: "Two wrongs don't make a right".
What’s hard to understand? Find me a single place in The Bible that says, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” That actually comes from Aesop (“two blacks do not make one white”—although I’d like to add that the morals were not explicitly stated in the original version of the fables and are instead the interpretations of later compilers). I’m pretty sure that “turn the other cheek” is the “two wrongs don’t make a right” part of The Bible.
Parables like The Prodigal Son also add very powerfully to the message of empathy and understanding with weakness.
The parable of the prodigal son is one of two analogies used in response to the Pharisees and scribes criticizing Jesus for consorting with lowlifes. The first is about a man going out of his way to rescue one stray sheep and abandoning ninety-nine others in order to do so. This follow-up tale about the prodigal son is much along the same lines. Note the resemblance that first story has to 2 Samuel 12:1-13, which also ends on a note of redemption. The subject is the forgiveness of sins by way of divine grace, not human beings having empathy for each other.
In contrast, the message I take from Muslims is much tougher with an emphasis on the need for you to make the standard, or else. (eg people are always telling me I'm going to hell.)
I’m surprised and puzzled to hear you speak of Islam and not Christianity as being the “people are always telling me I’m going to hell” religion. It’s Bible Bangers (mainly Protestants) who are infamous for that, at least where I live—and from what I can tell the worldwide web is very much the same. I thought that was common knowledge. Try finding me an Islamic website with a name like this.
Other powerful phrases such as 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's' and 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do' seem to be absent?
The latter is, false context aside, essentially just the Islamic doctrine that we are judged for our efforts or intentions and not for our successes or accidental actions, which is established at the end of surah 2 and elsewhere. The former is mentioned in various ahadith but if you want something from The Qur’an specifically then to give a quick answer you could say the knowledge is dispersed across 4:59, 5:1, 6:152 and 7:26.
If it's powerful phrases you're looking for, it's not like The Qur'an isn't extremely famous for them. As in "defining the entire Arabic language" famous.
Overall, based on this, it seems to me that Jesus in the Koran has a relatively minor role with little to say that's new or impactful? (I understand he is supposed to be simply another messenger.)
Minor role??! 43:61 speaks of him having a role in Judgment Day itself and the hadith collections fill this in with all sorts of humungously major details. Are you not familiar with them?
Finally, is there anything wrong with having little to say that’s new? The essentially Methodist writer on religion Huston Smith said the same thing about Jesus. In one of his books he talked about how it’s often been observed that practically none of his words in the Gospels didn’t consist of a quotation from the Old Testament or the Talmud: the trick was how he applied the message. And it was the Christian theologian C.S. Lewis who said that the common thread between all the great moral teachers in history was that they were invariably sent not to invent but to remind.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 03-23-2013 at 03:44 PM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
To be honest, I find the Biblical version better written - although both are in translation so I can only comment on what they sound like in English. (I should add that I am a big fan of the King James Bible as a piece of language.)
Maybe you identify yourself as a non-theist but I think many viewers of your post can deduce that you are in some way or another heavily influenced by christian thought. You also seem to express your inclination towards christianity very openly. It's not my concern really, but if you want to grasp a more profound understanding of Islam and the affect it has on it's followers you'd have to be willing to let go of the post christian baggage you're carrying along with. It clouds the vision of learning accurately and also hinders making connections between the two faiths correctly.
I rather think his influence is to be objectionable to anything Islamic much like Saul he's a Jew to the Jew a Christian to Christians am atheist to atheists!
Nothing to do with principal and everything with means to an end!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
As I have said, I'm not so interested in the scriptural aspects or the theology of it all. I'm interested in the history of ideas and morality, in which Jesus (the subject of this thread) played a big part. My focus is on the life and impact of the moral idea, rather than trying to prove its origin or who has the correct story. The NT sayings of Jesus are frequently brilliant and hard to fake.
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I’m surprised and puzzled to hear you speak of Islam and not Christianity as being the “people are always telling me I’m going to hell” religion
Well, it's happened plenty of times on this forum, and hardly ever to me in real life from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Maybe in English :P Try to find me anyone who will say that of an Arabic Bible.
As i already said, I can't comment on this. I have just started reading the Koran again (in English).
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
The reason for this assertion?
Look at all the debates on this forum about beards, hajibs, jobs, music, food, etc etc. It's so complicated!
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
The subject is the forgiveness of sins by way of divine grace, not human beings having empathy for each other.
I don't care about the theology, I'm interested in empathy as a moral idea.
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Minor role??! 43:61 speaks of him having a role in Judgment Day itself and the hadith collections fill this in with all sorts of humungously major details. Are you not familiar with them?
Of course not, I'm not a Muslim. What you describe as a major role on Judgment Day is a functional role - I'm interested in the impact of Jesus philosophically and morally. From what you have posted (and that's all I'm judging it by) if Jesus was entirely absent from the Koran nothing much would be lost in terms of teaching.
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Finally, is there anything wrong with having little to say that’s new?
I understand that there is no obligation in Islam for Jesus to be revolutionary (in fact you could argue he shouldn't be) but that's not what I'm focussing on. In the Christian version of Jesus, his impact is enormous.
Answering Berries'forest:
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Maybe you identify yourself as a non-theist but I think many viewers of your post can deduce that you are in some way or another heavily influenced by christian thought.
I said I was brought up as a Christian and my world view is clearly skewed that way. Today i reject the theology but that doesn't mean there aren't good things in it, as with Islam. For instance, if I compare the concept of the Trinity with that of Allah, the latter is simpler and more logical. (Some of the explanations for the Trinity given by Christians in this thread leave me confused).
Some of the explanations for the Trinity given by Christians in this thread leave me confused.
Uh oh. You've opened the floodgates. Does this mean we’re going to hear more analogies?
Well, it's happened plenty of times on this forum, and hardly ever to me in real life from Christians.
All I can say is, you’re the first person who’s ever told me this. Literally ever. Christianity is the religion that’s actually famous for the whole fire and brimstone attitude. And if you think otherwise then I don’t know who you’ve been talking to.
Look at all the debates on this forum about beards, hajibs, jobs, music, food, etc etc. It's so complicated!
I’m sorry, how is this different from Christianity—or, for that matter, any other religion? The whole Eucharist debate, for example, mostly stems from a myriad of factions holding furiously sundry opinions over the minute differences in possible connotations in a single Greek verb.
Anyway, if you insist on looking at this matter purely as a student of sociological history then—forgive me—I'm afraid I'm going to lose interest very quickly. What’s important is what's true and what's false, not what has the most impact or anything like that. Theology is something to care about very, very much. Even if it doesn’t lead you to hell, it can impact quite a lot in your life on earth.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I said I was brought up as a Christian and my world view is clearly skewed that way. Today i reject the theology but that doesn't mean there aren't good things in it, as with Islam. For instance, if I compare the concept of the Trinity with that of Allah, the latter is simpler and more logical.
I already know that you were raised a christian. I've read that sometime before I joined this forum. All the same; if you reread your posts you'll understand what I mean.
But since you have identified yourself as a non-theist more closely maybe an agnostic; analyzing subjects from a christian view-which I suppose you have renounced- doesn't seem like what a non-theist would do. By the way; on the note of it since it does relate to the topic more or less. Are you one of those people who believe that the more mysterious and complicated even illogical a religion is the more authentic it can be considered?. Just wondering...
Christianity is the religion that’s actually famous for the whole fire and brimstone attitude. And if you think otherwise then I don’t know who you’ve been talking to.
I was brought up in the Church of England/Ireland which is very mild indeed in its requirements. Hell didn't get much of a mention.
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I’m sorry, how is this different from Christianity—or, for that matter, any other religion?
Catholicism is quite demanding, but not CofE/CofI!
Just answer me, Independent: are you going to start taking theology at least a little bit seriously? Because it matters whether or not The Qur'an is a handbook to life, given to us by the same entity that made the whole universe. It matters whether or not Jesus is going to save the world someday and bring an age of peace and prosperity upon it. It matters whether or not God ever visited His people as a human being. These things sound vaguely important, don't they? Truth always matters, even when it comes to the small things in life.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
But since you have identified yourself as a non-theist more closely maybe an agnostic; analyzing subjects from a christian view-which I suppose you have renounced- doesn't seem like what a non-theist would do. By the way; on the note of it since it does relate to the topic more or less. Are you one of those people who believe that the more mysterious and complicated even illogical a religion is the more authentic it can be considered?. Just wondering...
I am an agnostic. However, I find it very difficult to believe in any organised religion that I have come across.
No, the degree of complexity would not help me believe in it. I am very analytical and logical by nature. There are aspects of Islam that appeal to me on this score, but others which have very much the opposite effect.
Just answer me, Independent: are you going to start taking theology at least a little bit seriously?
I take morality seriously. However, at this point I do not believe that the Koran is the dictated word of God which obviously affects how I regard and respond to it.
You seem to have quite a detached, distant, removed way of looking at religion, though. I'm wondering if anything ever could convince you that it was the Word of God. What would do the trick? Have you even thought about that?
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I'm wondering if anything ever could convince you that it was the Word of God. What would do the trick? Have you even thought about that?
I knew very little about Islam before joining this forum 6 months ago. The claims about the Koran (impossible to replicate, scientific miracles, proofs of origin) are therefore all new to me and I have been interested to read about them.
So far i don't feel that what I have read in the Koran could only have been dictated by God but I have only read extracts - now I want to read the whole book.
So far i don't feel that what I have read in the Koran could only have been dictated by God but I have only read extracts - now I want to read the whole book.
Most English translations simply don't do justice. Classical Arabic is fascinating and quite advanced. It's amazing how in-depth the linguistics of it goes.
If you want to read the whole book with a more modern English translation, I recommend this one:
The Qur'an (Oxford World Classics) translated by Muhammad A S Abdel Haleem - http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b8919.html
Most translations of the Qur'an I've read are written in old English and are sometimes hard to follow and confusing. In my opinion, Islamic scholarship in the Western world is gravely underdeveloped. Those of us in the West tend to miss out on a lot because of language barriers and incorrect translations from Arabic in a modern English context.
I'm trying to think of what the best advice to give you is. I guess that one thing to mention for now would be that you mustn't judge the Word of Allah by a few internet trends. People, you see, have a way of misunderstanding and exaggerating things. For example there are indeed a few scientifically impressive statements in The Qur'an but some of the claims along these lines are so misconceived that they just make me want to bury my face in my hands. And the "surah like it" challenge, seen in context, was a counter-argument to shut up the Arab writers and skeptics of the time, not really for all people at all times. Although if you ask me there still isn't anything like The Qur'an, even in English, and I say that as a writer.
I read Arberry's translation first. I still find that one the most moving. Others find it too hard to follow. But it's a well known fact that every version has its flaws (a fact that's inevitable when you're talking about any ancient document written in an unconnected language) so approach with caution.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
If you want to read the whole book with a more modern English translation, I recommend this one:
The Qur'an (Oxford World Classics) translated by Muhammad A S Abdel Haleem - http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b8919.html
I just bought this translation myself. It is also available on Kindle.
Another thing that might help you is to listen to a recitation of each sura as you come to it, so that you get some sense of how it sounds in the original Arabic - that makes a big difference. You can find recitations by different recitors here: http://quranicaudio.com/
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