The Muslim Concept of Jesus: Discussion Between Mufti Abdur Rahman & Dr Brendan Devit

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

"My indonesian Muslim friend" do you literally only have one Muslim friend? Who probably has never been to the middle east? And you paint everyone based on his opinion?? How's that make any sense?

Hi charisma,

I'll give some more detail for you to settle your concerns.

I have several Muslim friends.

It was an Indonesian Muslim friend who said middle east Muslims are crazy.

This was confirmed by the Muslim Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian congress who addressed the Canadian Senate asking that Muslim immigration from countries (like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc) be stopped as such countries are fundamentalists pushing Sharia law.

BTW, do you support Islam's death for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, insulting Mohammed?

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

For the record there's a difference between being gay and being openly gay; Committing adultery in secret and committing adultery openly or exposing your own sins; disbelieving in Islam and spreading hatred towards islam; etc. etc. It's not all black and white as you think it is. So for example, in Saudi Arabia, I've seen gay people walking around..I know they're gay, but they're not committing any acts of indecency as is encouraged in the western countries so no one really cares. There are also a lot of nonMuslims here who have lived here for years and have preferred to raise their kids here as well because the west is becoming such a corrupt society.

And if you're wondering, there is all of those things and more in every single country, whether it is secular or religious. Follow the rules of the land and everyone on that land should be fine.

So what is the point of Sharia law when it only punishes those who are allegedly openly gay, adulterous, apostate, etc.

If Sharia law calls for the death penalty for such acts then what you describe of Saudi Arabia is that they are compromising on Islam's law.

From what you describe it almost sounds like Islam's Allah does not care (or fails to see) if someone is secretly or subtly apostate, gay, adulterous, etc.

Can you explain this dilemma in Saudi Arabia further?

BTW, I do agree that Western society is getting corrupt.
It comes from the Socialist/Communist Left who dominate the mainstream media, politics and the education system.
Their aim is to create a borderless world under a one world government.

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

Why do you claim that God is not all powerful and thus unable to manifest Himself as a physical man and die physically?

Islam is anti Christ as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
That is because Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God who died for our sins and thus saving us.

Because of Christ's sacrifice Christians cannot be charged with sin (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9). On judgement day Christians are seen as righteous, holy, perfect and sinless, and this is because of Christ's sacrifice.

But those who reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for our sin, sadly they still remain in sin and thus on judgement day they will be condemned to Hell for their sin.




I really don't know what your point is with this question.




You fail to understand that the penalty for sin is death.
That's why Jesus died for our sin. And those who believe on him are baptized into his death on the cross (Romans 6:3) which means that our death penalty for sin has been paid when we believe on Jesus.

Only those who are perfect, righteous, holy and sinless may enter into God's kingdom.
And Christians have this covering of perfection (Hebrews 10:14), righteousness (Romans 4:5), holiness (Romans 11:16), sinlessness (1John 3:9) as we are one in Christ.





I've seen these allegations before, just as with the claims about the many inaccuracies of the Quran, the destruction of the first Quran (Hasfah Codex) by later rival Muslim leaders, etc, etc. Such debates are go nowhere. I suggest you just keep to comparing the essential message of salvation.




God has various names in the Bible.


God called Himself “I AM”.
Exodus 3:14 in Old Testament.
“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.”

Jesus called himself “I AM”, and the Jews sought to stone him to death for saying this.
John 8:58 in New Testament.
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Other Bible scriptures telling us that Jesus is God.


Isaiah 9:6 in Old Testament
For unto us a Child (Jesus Christ) is born,
Unto us a Son (Jesus Christ) is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD,
EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace.

BTW, these Bible verses stating that Jesus is God are also found in the John Wycliffe Bible translation from the 1300's

So God can be born?God can die?This makes sense to you?If God has no beginning or ending how can he die or be born?The penalty for sin is just punishment. God is merciful and if you simply ask you will be forgiven. The best thing about Islam is that I have direct access to Allah. I can ask HIM for forgiveness. I also don't know why you are quoting a scripture to me when the Bible has been changed more times than a woman dyes her hair. And I can promise you there are no additions, subtractions, or alterations in the Quran. I can pick up one from Egypt or Saudi Arabia or even one from the 1800's and it will still be the same. The Quran has never been altered because we have preserved it unlike christians who readily change the Bible to fit their ideas (like many christians in America are know saying that homosexuality isn't a sin). No Islamic scholar has ever changed the Quran. If you think differently please provide me with a scholar or surah that proves me wrong. I can provide you with five things that have been changed in the Bible since the Dark Ages. Also, God has 99 names, one of them being Allah. The Quran urges people to seek knowledge and not just go on faith. So if you don't believe I am correct search for yourself, I did. That's how I found out that the Bible had been altered. How can you base your life on scripture that has been altered? Once again, if you can prove me wrong then do so.

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

I suggest you consider John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I suggest you watch this on how one of the oldest biblical codex has been altered. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2zvpA7xUi4

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

If a man commits adultery openly where he is seen by many witnesses, he gets the death penalty. If he commits adultery in secret..who's going to know about it for him to be punished?? His judgement is now with Allah. Secondly even Saudi Arabia as conservative as it is, is not practicing sharia law 100%.

"Islam's Allah" ?? Your statement isn't making any sense here. What is your assumption?

My point is that Islam's Allah seems to have 2 different levels of punishment.

1: He's not bothering with the physical death penalty in this physical life for apostates, adulterers, gays, etc providing they are subtle about committing such offences under Sharia. This is because those enforcing Sharia law missed the actual offences, in spite of the fact that you say that you can see who these secretive/subtle offenders are (such as gays). So these offenders only get judgement in the after life, in spite of their persistent gayness or apostasy, etc.

2: But anyone who does it publicly, then they not only get the death penalty from Sharia courts here on Earth acting on behalf of Islam's Allah, but then they also get judgement in the after life too. That is they get a double punishment, one from man enforcing Sharia law, and one from Islam's Allah in the after life.

It seems unfair that the secretive/subtle persistent offenders ( in spite of the fact that you can see who the gay people are, for example) get a lessor penalty than those who do it openly.

BTW, I can't imagine anyone doing these offences openly when the death penalty applies, thus such penalties only encourage people to be secretive/subtle in their offences.

But what you described about the deliberate disregard of obviously gay people who are secretive about their lifestyle, suggests that Muslims in Saudi Arabia are complicit in these offences because they knowingly allow such offences to occur simply because they are hidden.

So if Saudi Arabia is not practicing Sharia 100% are they disobedient? What is the penalty for their disobedience?

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

So what is the point of Sharia law when it only punishes those who are allegedly openly gay, adulterous, apostate, etc.

If Sharia law calls for the death penalty for such acts then what you describe of Saudi Arabia is that they are compromising on Islam's law.


From what you describe it almost sounds like Islam's Allah does not care (or fails to see) if someone is secretly or subtly apostate, gay, adulterous, etc.

Can you explain this dilemma in Saudi Arabia further?

BTW, I do agree that Western society is getting corrupt.
It comes from the Socialist/Communist Left who dominate the mainstream media, politics and the education system.
Their aim is to create a borderless world under a one world government.

Shariah law is for here on Earth.There is still punishment in the after life for not repenting.As far as Saudi Arabia,it only counts for 20% of muslims. No single Islamic country should represent all of Islam. At the end of the day people are prone to commit sin and one of those sins is adding on to Shariah law.Also, I would advise you not to speak on Shariah law unless you know it.Without knowledge you would not know the difference between shariah law and what corrupt men have added on or what the media tells you. Seek knowledge. Even if you are not muslim seek knowledge.

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

My point is that Islam's Allah seems to have 2 different levels of punishment.

1: He's not bothering with the physical death penalty in this physical life for apostates, adulterers, gays, etc providing they are subtle about committing such offences under Sharia. This is because those enforcing Sharia law missed the actual offences, in spite of the fact that you say that you can see who these secretive/subtle offenders are (such as gays). So these offenders only get judgement in the after life, in spite of their persistent gayness or apostasy, etc.

2: But anyone who does it publicly, then they not only get the death penalty from Sharia courts here on Earth acting on behalf of Islam's Allah, but then they also get judgement in the after life too. That is they get a double punishment, one from man enforcing Sharia law, and one from Islam's Allah in the after life.

It seems unfair that the secretive/subtle persistent offenders ( in spite of the fact that you can see who the gay people are, for example) get a lessor penalty than those who do it openly.

BTW, I can't imagine anyone doing these offences openly when the death penalty applies, thus such penalties only encourage people to be secretive/subtle in their offences.

But what you described about the deliberate disregard of obviously gay people who are secretive about their lifestyle, suggests that Muslims in Saudi Arabia are complicit in these offences because they knowingly allow such offences to occur simply because they are hidden.

So if Saudi Arabia is not practicing Sharia 100% are they disobedient? What is the penalty for their disobedience?

A. Allah could very well kill someone for committing haram sexual acts.
B. Shariah law is a justice system for Earth. Islam is a complete way of life.
C.Shariah death penalty is only enforceable if they do not repent.
D. The penalty is no lessened because humans can't see it because Allah sees all. Humans are prone to mistakes, God is not. He can however, hide your shame from the world if you don't make it public (one of his many merciful attributes).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2zvpA7xUi4
One of the oldest biblical codex that has been altered.

So God can be born?God can die?This makes sense to you?If God has no beginning or ending how can he die or be born?

Again you are in effect saying that God is not almighty and thus cannot manifest Himself as a man.

But the Bible says that God is Spirit, and He is everlasting.
God is a 3 part being (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), just as man is a 3 part being (Soul, body, spirit).

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (1Timothy 3:16).
This physical manifestation of God is the Alpha (the firstborn of the dead in this physical world, Colossians 1:18), and he is the Omega (the last sacrifice under the law).

The penalty for sin is just punishment. God is merciful and if you simply ask you will be forgiven. The best thing about Islam is that I have direct access to Allah. I can ask HIM for forgiveness. I also don't know why you are quoting a scripture to me when the Bible has been changed more times than a woman dyes her hair. And I can promise you there are no additions, subtractions, or alterations in the Quran. I can pick up one from Egypt or Saudi Arabia or even one from the 1800's and it will still be the same. The Quran has never been altered because we have preserved it unlike christians who readily change the Bible to fit their ideas (like many christians in America are know saying that homosexuality isn't a sin). No Islamic scholar has ever changed the Quran. If you think differently please provide me with a scholar or surah that proves me wrong. I can provide you with five things that have been changed in the Bible since the Dark Ages. Also, God has 99 names, one of them being Allah. The Quran urges people to seek knowledge and not just go on faith. So if you don't believe I am correct search for yourself, I did. That's how I found out that the Bible had been altered. How can you base your life on scripture that has been altered? Once again, if you can prove me wrong then do so.

And as I pointed out to you Muslims remain in sin as they're anti Christ rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin.

As for the Quran, considering that the original Quran, the Hafsah Codex, was destroyed and replaced with a different Quran by a later rival Muslim leadership, and considering the contradictory recitations of it before the Quran was eventually written, and considering the lack of the typical historical evidence that is normally expected for renowned leaders like Mohammed, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXf7uP9lhE8
it's clear Islam has no leg to stand on.

These inconvenient facts are all available on the web if you want to look further.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3CfQlvivt4.


Both the Old Testament and the New Testament show that sin leads to death.

But for Christians there is no sin that can be charged against us (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9, John 8:36), thanks to Christ's sacrifice.
This is the only way one can escape the death penalty for sin.

BTW, I note your silence over the proof I showed from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that Jesus Christ is God.

Anyway folks, I'll be back again tomorrow as it's late night here.

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

Again you are in effect saying that God is not almighty and thus cannot manifest Himself as a man.

But the Bible says that God is Spirit, and He is everlasting.
God is a 3 part being (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), just as man is a 3 part being (Soul, body, spirit).

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (1Timothy 3:16).
This physical manifestation of God is the Alpha (the firstborn of the dead in this physical world, Colossians 1:18), and he is the Omega (the last sacrifice under the law).




And as I pointed out to you Muslims remain in sin as they're anti Christ rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin.

As for the Quran, considering that the original Quran, the Hafsah Codex, was destroyed and replaced with a different Quran by a later rival Muslim leadership, and considering the contradictory recitations of it before the Quran was eventually written, and considering the lack of the typical historical evidence that is normally expected for renowned leaders like Mohammed, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXf7uP9lhE8
it's clear Islam has no leg to stand on.

These inconvenient facts are all available on the web if you want to look further.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3CfQlvivt4.


Both the Old Testament and the New Testament show that sin leads to death.

But for Christians there is no sin that can be charged against us (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9, John 8:36), thanks to Christ's sacrifice.
This is the only way one can escape the death penalty for sin.

BTW, I note your silence over the proof I showed from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that Jesus Christ is God.

Anyway folks, I'll be back again tomorrow as it's late night here.

The sunnah also backs up Quran,you should research that too.For yourself, by actually reading it, not going on JihadWatch.

So if your God was born and did what every human does ****, eat, sleep, cry, get beaten up and die, What makes him more powerful than you? How can he destroy or reward you if he has no more power than you? Am I telling you God cant die. Yes, because he is infinite with no ending or beginning. So if Jesus is your God and he died then your God is dead.

Like I said before, you deny that God almighty is all powerful and well able to manifest Himself as the man Jesus Christ to die for our sins.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

For your own sake you should not reject God's gift of salvation.

Christian: It is possible for God to become a human being

Muslim: It is rationally impossible for God to be a man

Christian: God is omnipotent, it is possible for God to become a man as God can do anything

Muslim: If God becomes a man, He ceases to be God, as God and man are mutually exclusive

Christian: God is omnipotent, it is possible for God to become a man while remaining God also

Muslim: If you are right, it is possible for God to tell lies and deceive. It is possible for God to create another God who is more powerful than Him. It is possible for God to create a rock so large and heavy that even He cannot lift it, etc.

Christian: Yes all of these things are possible, but this does not negate our argument that it is possible for God to become a man while remaining God

Muslim: If it is possible for God to lie, then it is possible for your faith (Christianity) to be based on lies

Christian has no choice but to admit this possibility

Holy Branch's next contention: "The Son of God was incarnated as a man to die for all the sins of mankind"

Muslim: Did Jesus die for all of mankind's sins or only some of them?

Christian: Jesus died for all mankind's sins

Muslim: Then it is inconsequential if I become a Christian or not, since I am forgiven and granted salvation by your own admission

Christian: No, in order for you to be saved, you have to confess verbally that Jesus died for your sins

Muslim: Did Jesus himself ever make this a condition of salvation?

Christian: There is no reported statement to this effect from Jesus himself, but some other people said this

Muslim: Is it a sin to reject that Jesus died for your sins?

Christian: Umm....well yes it is a sin to reject that Jesus died for your sins, maybe the greatest sin?

Muslim: Well then if I am guilty of that sin, Jesus died for that sin of mine as well (according to you), so I am granted salvation nonetheless. Isn't salvation a free gift anyways? There is no condition

Christian: Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life"

Muslim: We already believe this. But where did Jesus say one must confess that he died for our sins in order to attain salvation?


Islamic Belief: Salvation is subject to believing in and worshiping One God (Allah) only and not worshiping any other god besides Him

Christian: Every human being is a sinner. The wages of sin are death. The only way to be saved from sin is for someone pure and untainted by sin to voluntarily sacrifice his life to atone for our sins

Muslim: Is it possible for God to forgive sin without the need of a blood sacrifice?

Christian: Yes it is possible. But justice demands that a crime be punished or atoned for.

Muslim: If God decides to forgive someone out of His grace without any atonement, is God being unjust?

Christian: Yes it is unjust, because sin has to be atoned for, one way or another.

Muslim: Sin is a crime against God because it is disobedience to God. Are you saying a person cannot forgive an offense that was committed against himself?

Christian: Justice demands that crime must be atoned for. God has instituted this system of justice.

Muslim: Is it possible for God to forgive sin out of His grace without the need for atonement?

Christian: Yes it is possible.

Muslim: Is it just for an innocent person to be sacrificed to atone for the sin of a guilty person?

Christian: It is just if that innocent person does so voluntarily.

Muslim: So all the sins of mankind can be transferred to a "scapegoat" and thus mankind is absolved of responsibility for all their sins?

Christian: Yes!

Muslim: Is suffering a few hours on the cross and then dying a sufficient atonement for all the millions and millions of sins that have been committed by mankind throughout the ages?

Christian: Well it doesn't seem that bad actually, sounds like a good deal lol

Christian: As a Muslim, your religion also teaches you that sins can be expiated through a blood sacrifice of an animal

Muslim: Yes, but the Qur'an says it is not the blood or flesh of the animal that reaches God, it is the piety of the one who sacrifices, meaning his intention to please God

Muslim: Were those who put Jesus on the cross committing an act of piety?

Christian: No, they were not. But Jesus prayed to God on the cross that they be forgiven.

Muslim: Then how can it be said that Jesus was put on the cross by mankind as a sin offering?

Christian: Well God Himself sent Jesus to die for our sins.

Muslim: In other words, man did not offer Jesus as an atonement for our sins, but God imposed this on us as a free gift for our salvation?

Christian: Yes!

Muslim: So your analogy with the Islamic and Judaic practices of animal sacrifice to expiate for sin is null and void. We sacrifice animals as an act of piety and God looks at our heart and our intention to please Him, so He forgives our sin.

Christian: God loves us all, and so He wants us to be absolved of sin, so He sent His begotten son Jesus to die as an atonement for our sins.

Muslim: If God loves us all that He wants us to be absolved from sin, why not just forgive all our sins?

Christian: A gift has to be accepted. By denying Jesus died on the cross for your sins you are rejecting God's free gift.

Muslim: Is it in God's power to give someone salvation without that person accepting God's gift?

Christian: Yes it is possible.

Muslim: Then why would God not do so if He loves us?

Christian: I don't know.


There are so many logical fallacies with the Christian doctrine of atonement, I hope this brief dialogue opened your mind to at least some of them.