The Holy Qur'an is the Irrefutable Evidence

Hi Root,

For me "faith", and research into the Holy Quran it does prove the existence of God. I have studied the Qu'ran and for me it is the unaltered word of God, the final revelation. When you look at the Torah and the coming of Jesus (PBUH) prophecised or the Torah and Bible for the coming of Muhammed (PBUH), all teaching the same message, "Only One God worthy of worship", it confirms the existence of God. And who knows science itself may well oneday prove the existence of the All Mighty Creator.

The example you used of a meteorite, is the same as if you are standing on the road and you see a car coming towards you, we would all move out the way and do our best to avoid it hitting us. Same with the meteorite we do all we can to prevent it, there is no clash between faith and science. Allah (SWT) has given us the intellect so we do all we can to prevent it from hitting us.

Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by root

I am happy for you and you have a right to believe in anything that you wish, is does not detract from the fact that one cannot say the Holy Quran is irrefutable evidence of the existence of God. As an individual I suppose you can claim this but it's just not factually correct to state such.........

peace,

How do you expect for people to bring forth factual evidence when one has clearly made up their mind on their views. Some people say that the Qur'an holds no scientific evidence nor miracles but when you bring forth some they utter 'well that is obvious.' Those who are in denial will NEVER be satisfied with what they are given. They have no desire to seek the truth but decieve themselves by saying they do.

You have your religion and i have mine...we are all God's caretion. We hold different ideologies....firstly do you believe in the existence of God? if one doesn't, no matter what you bring they'll dismiss it as being barbaric or irrellevant.

Have a pleasant day

Its not Islam that claims God made us in his "image". How can the created even compare to the creator , not a chance.

There are many similiar things between Islam and Christianity, like the prophets etc but there are also diffrences like the bible says the earth was created in 6 days where as with muslims it was created in 6 yawm (periods of time), or that the universe is only 6000 years old according to christians (we know now it is much much older than this), this is not the view of the muslims.

We believe 100% in the orginal bible as muslims, ie the one revealed to Jesus (PBUH), the one we have today has been altered and changed. The Quran confirms some story's of the Bible, this we can agree with it. But many things have changed in it and today we find many statements in it are incompatible with science, this however is not the case with the Qu'ran.

Root 2 questions, would you say you are an agnostic rather than an athiest? And have you ever read the Qu'ran before?

format_quote Originally Posted by root

Thanks for correcting me. I did not know that, as I thought the only difference between Muslims & Christians was that Muslims believe it was not actually jesus who was crucified & that jesus was not the son of god but a prophet. And now I see that their is another issue or maybe I got it all wrong.

we all have to learn somewhere :P. regards to the differences between islam and christianity - there is loads of differences :P
one of the older brothers will probably know all of them and it is probably best that you hear it from them.
your 'mistake' is just a common one. However, you actually want to learn about it and so i have respect for you. In any case, i would ask your query to either khaludn or kadafi (maybe ansar) hopefully they can give you a better answer than i can.

peace,

This is not a true statement.

In your opinion, what is a true statement? what may satisfy me will certainly not satisfy you so how can you assess the level of being true when we all hold different opinions and see different things to be true?

My mind is less made up than yours,

However, you fail to understand that my mind is made up, i'm just discusing this with an open-mind.

your not recognising the act of "faith" in that ANY religion and not just Islam requires "faith".

Faith is essential in every religion...As Muslims we believe in the Torah (towrat), Pslam (zabur) and Bible (njeel) because they were given to the prophets (pbut) by Allah (swt)-God. Now by stating that those who follow that scripture do not need faith or have faith we would contradicting our own religion.

The Quran is not just a religous entity as it is cultural too.

Not to that extent....culturial issues clash with people's ethnicity at times and saying that God made laws upon cultural subjects would dismiss the fact that we all have different cultures. You need to distinquish cultural stuff from Islam...many people used to get trapped in believing something was part of Islam when it was just something Arabs and jews used to follow as part of their tradition.

I live in an Educated society that has it's own culture that culture could use the same words about itself (and it does). This makes niether you nor me any more right or wrong on a point of religion & culture.

I am not stating i am right in any way...God forbid i should not elivate myself and become those cursed due to being arrogant and proud. I merely show you what Islam teaches...what the creator taught us. Every society has its own cultue of course but that tradition should no be made vital if it conflicts with Islam....people can follow it so long as they are not practising anything unlawful.

Sorry, I don't have a religion.

fair enough

I disagree

Do you then think we are all creation of our environment? mutated and adapted to our society and are finally reached the stage in a process where we are humans? do you believe in the evolution theory?

I agree

we all have a common ground

I merely reject differing religous accounts of what they beleive god to be.

It is not about what we believe God to be...we do not speak of the apperance of the creator because a)we have not been informed b)it is something we can not comprehend. It is more of what the creator what its creation to know about him. All that has been taught by man is for his own good...God does not tell us to leave something if it is beneficial to us in the long run.

Do I beleive "God" made us in his image. Certainly not.

I agree....Islam agrees.

I don't quite follow that.

I was suggesting that if people don't believe in God then no evidence will be good enough....people will find any old excuse to dismiss it.

Don't be offended by my words & don't be surprised that the majority of the world disagree with what you say. Use your faith, and not your anger.......

I have argued with many non-muslims, atheists, agnostic and the one thing i do not show is anger....we are humans, no doubt we will disagree and i am more than happy to discuss it. No personal attacks or insults....just a debate. I have not intention of getting my emotions attached to the thread...I hope the same goes for you.

Have a pleasant day

regards,

CE

(i may not reply for a long time, busy)

In your opinion, what is a true statement? what may satisfy me will certainly not satisfy you so how can you assess the level of being true when we all hold different opinions and see different things to be true?

A fact!

However, you fail to understand that my mind is made up, i'm just discusing this with an open-mind.

hhhmm, a contradiction of term. You accuse people of having a closed mind because thier mind is made up already then turn around and openly state your mind is made up.

Faith is essential in every religion...As Muslims we believe in the Torah (towrat), Pslam (zabur) and Bible (njeel) because they were given to the prophets (pbut) by Allah (swt)-God. Now by stating that those who follow that scripture do not need faith or have faith we would contradicting our own religion.

Yes I agree with you, faith is an important part of any religion. faith is called upon in the absence of proof. Which is understandable i guess.

Not to that extent....culturial issues clash with people's ethnicity at times and saying that God made laws upon cultural subjects would dismiss the fact that we all have different cultures. You need to distinquish cultural stuff from Islam...many people used to get trapped in believing something was part of Islam when it was just something Arabs and jews used to follow as part of their tradition

When all said and done, look harder. Culture & the Quran are inexplicably linked.

I am not stating i am right in any way...God forbid i should not elivate myself and become those cursed due to being arrogant and proud. I merely show you what Islam teaches...what the creator taught us. Every society has its own cultue of course but that tradition should no be made vital if it conflicts with Islam....people can follow it so long as they are not practising anything unlawful.

I like the ending here, "as long as they are not practising anything unlawful" As long as we are talking UK laws then I accept that. As soon as you move to sharia law your statement is invalud since what I believe is plasphamy by your faith and a number of other faiths too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4466341.stm

Do you then think we are all creation of our environment? mutated and adapted to our society and are finally reached the stage in a process where we are humans? do you believe in the evolution theory?

Yes, I do beleive we evolve in relation to our environment. I don't beleive we mutate and adapt to a society and evolution has no "finally". Even today Evolution is at work. I do not believe in the theory of evolution in it's entire state of "Darwinism".

It is not about what we believe God to be...we do not speak of the apperance of the creator because a)we have not been informed b)it is something we can not comprehend. It is more of what the creator what its creation to know about him. All that has been taught by man is for his own good...God does not tell us to leave something if it is beneficial to us in the long run.

Fair enough you are entitled to an opinion?

Finally let us not forget our point here. "The holy Quran is the irrefutable evidence" of which I and the majority of your fellow human's state as utter nonsense, though you are free to beleive that.

Pardon me for jumping in on this conversation, but there are a number of points I'd like to mention.

format_quote Originally Posted by root

hhhmm, a contradiction of term. You accuse people of having a closed mind because thier mind is made up already then turn around and openly state your mind is made up.

I would mention that having a mind that is made-up, does not necessitatea close-minded mentality. Being open-minded is being receptive and tolerant of various views. One can be open-minded and still believe that something is the truth with full certainty.

Yes I agree with you, faith is an important part of any religion. faith is called upon in the absence of proof. Which is understandable i guess.

Not the absence of proof, but the absence of material evidence. One can arrive at logical conclusions and have full faith is an answer that may be demonstrated.

Finally let us not forget our point here. "The holy Quran is the irrefutable evidence" of which I and the majority of your fellow human's state as utter nonsense, though you are free to beleive that.

I think the "majority of humans" have little value in this judgement, because one needs to have some understanding of the subject that they are to evaluate!

For example, I would disregard your opinion of the Qur'an as weightless, because you do not have a thorogh understanding of the Qur'an purpose, position, state, content, etc.

I will give you the following introduction to th Qur'an, which may start you off in evaluating it as the word of God:

http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost...6&postcount=40

Perhaps you could begin your research on the Qur'an here:
http://whyislam.org/877/Modern_Scien...zing_Quran.asp

And begin to read the Qur'an here:
http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/quran.shtml


Only after understanding the Qur'an, will your judgement be accepted as valid.

So your "Evidence" all hinges on what was meant by "7 heavens", and I doubt very much that when it is all taken into context that the "7 heavens" is actually the 7 layers.

You might be right; those verses could be refering to anything, but you'r missing the point here Root. Maybe it refers to the seven layers, maybe it doesn't, heck it might even refer to the 7 extra dimensions string-theory found. We simply don't know. Then again to me it does not matter. The qur'an isn't about science it's a guidance trough life. And between advise and warnings one can find comparisons describing earthly matters in such a simple yet accurate way. This isn't the source of our faith, it simply confirms it.

What is really ironic about your piece is that if "creationists" accepted the same level of proof as you have presented then the creationist theory would be dead in the water. The truth is that you don't, so please don't ask others to accept any of what you have said and try to put it forward as "Irrefutable evidence"

As I said this is just a confirmation and it doesn't stand alone, but why take my word for it? You shouldn't, that's why I wrote the previous, not so you would revert on the spot, not so you would accept without thinking, but simply to show that our faith is not a blind one. That there is more to it then meats the eye. bringing me to...

Further, you must realise the differences in an "evolutionists" arguement & a "creationists" arguement.

I strongly disagree. First of all I've been atheistic for 20 years and studied science. My atheism wasn't the lack of intrest but fundated with arguments philosofical and scientific, at one point of my life however I found out there was more to it then I origianally thought. So don't tell me I don't have a clue to how the scientific way of thinking is, don't think that my mind is closed due to indoctrination. Just because 2 different ways (science and religion) seem to be contradicting one another at first vieuw doesn't neccesairly make it so. In fact "evolution" doesn't even contradict "creation"
evolution fails to explain the origin of life, but simply tells us how life "evolved" troughout the years. And it is still doubtful that birds came forth of mamels and thus accedentially mutating wings, hollow bones for weighing less, stronger chestmuscles etc... all at the same time. It is however likely that if one species of birds would have been created that many other mutations would have arised from it. As for the theory of the "evolution" of life out of lifeless matter, it is very far fetched and incomplete.

More on the origen of life: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...948/orgel.html

You call this Science. Firstly, MountEvrest is one of the biggest "pegs" on this planet yet it is only 50 million years old, this mauntain was never "placed" it came about because the land we walk on does move under us which is the complete opposite of what you beleive and have quoted.

You shouldn't take everything this literaly. When it says "placed" do you actualy visualise a giant hand coming from the clouds holding a mountain and pinning it down in the earth? Just kidding, you 've already proven yourself more intelligent then that
Anyway, what Ii'm trying to say is: although science may accuratly explain how nature works, it doesn't explain why. Why do the 4 forces of this univerce do what they do? Why do messenger particles evoke what they do? Why do electrons repel one another? We believe it happens because it's gods will, so yes he placed those mountains. Of course the earth does move but imagen how much it would move if the continental drifts weren't moderated by the formation of mountains.

Also I noticed your reference to harunyahya. I'm quite troubled with his movies. Although I admire his intentions I have to admit that he frequently jumps to conclusions and sometimes the wrong one's. It's sad because when people notice some of the wrong assumptions he makes they associate it with islam.

Anyway, I noticed you didn't comment on the expansion of the univers, the multiple waves of the sea, the propotion of the water and earth...
So is it safe to assume that you dismiss them as being coincedential, a lucky guess from muhammed's (peace be upon him) part?

I also noticed your previous post had a kind of irretaded underline in it. I hope I didn't offend you personally, and I hope I didn't come of to arrogant. I'm just trying to share my point of vieuw.

Peace

Let us examine what Root has posted and see if there is any substance to it.

First, his response to me:

More arrogance, you reject the majority view based solely that they don't use the same source material as you.

How is pointing out a logical fallacy, arrogance? I stated that the majority view on the Qur'an is weightless, since the majority of people don't know anything about the Qur'an!

It seems that you are unable to comprehend such a simple point. (And atheism is supposed to be open-minded : )

If someone doesn't know about the topic they're evaluating, what use is their evaluation? Your comments are a typical logical fallacy. I could bring you billions of people who think evolution is false, but its meaningless if they don't know anything about evolution.

The majority of people in the world are theists. Based on your own standards you would have to accept that theism is the truth!


I hope its clear now, that it is not the quantity of supporters which validate an argument, but the content of the argument itself.

You could say that the majority of people do not believe the Qur'an is the irrefutable evidence. Heck, they don't even understand what it is!!


So guess what, root? Their opinion is weightless. Someone who has studied the Qur'an and understands its sciences can give a judgement on it.

I hope we are clear on this.

Next, concerning your attempt to rebut the Qur'anic material on the seven layers in the atmosphere:

format_quote Originally Posted by root

Hmmmm, very interesting:

Your article was originally posted here: http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_o...uran_p1_09.php

But after being challenged it was removed.

No it was never part of that book. This is a claim of Ali Sina. He is wrong because the author of that article still proudly displays it here, where it always has been:
http://-----------------------/scientific_19.html

The seven heavens:

1. Moon (satellite)
2. Mercury (Planet)
3. Venusm (Planet)
4. Sun (Star)
5. Mars (Planet)
6. Jupitor (Planet)
7. Saturn (planet)

Not likely, becuase the seven heavens are described as protec tive layers, each with a specific funtion.

At least we know that the 7 heavens was not in reference to:

1. The 7 Day week
2. The 7 Arc Angels
3. The 7 Day creation

It could not refer to those because it would be unsported by the context. Seven protectivbe layers over the earth. How could it refer to any of those?

The Islamic site www.pakistanlink.com quotes Maududi, the renowned Muslim scholar and the interpreter of the Quran who says:

“It is difficult to explain precisely what is meant by the ‘seven heavens’. In all ages man has tried, with the help of observation and speculation to conceptualize the ‘heavens’, i.e. that which lies beyond and above the earth. As we know the concepts that have thus developed have constantly changed. Hence it would be improper to tie the meaning of these words of the Qur’an to any one of these numerous concepts. What might be broadly inferred from this statement is that either Allah has divided the universe beyond earth into seven distinct spheres, or that this earth is located in that part of the universe which consists of seven different spheres." [5]

Based on the context, the majority of Qur'anic scholars agree that it refers to the seven layers of the atmosphere, which is the most logical explanation that fits with the context.

As one can see the real scholars of Islam are unable to explain the meaning of the seven heavens mentioned in the Quran and try to give esoteric significance to it.

The Qur'anic verses state:
It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things. (Qur'an, 2:29)

Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate. (Qur'an, 41:11-12)

Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers? (Qur'an, 71:15)

He Who created the seven heavens in layers. (Qur'an, 67:3)

The Qur'anic verses are open to interpretation, but this interpretation fits best with the context. It is amazing to note the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an.

If we had to believe that the seven heavens is an allusion to the seven layers of the atmosphere then we have to assume that stars must be no more than eleven kilometers above the Earth, because as the verse 41:12 says the lower heaven is adorned with brilliant stars.

False! It says "As-Samaa Ad-Dunya". While some translators have chosen to translate this as the lowest heaven, such a translation is not very accurate when we look at the literal meaning and Qur'anic usage.



Hence, cosmic heaven is a better translation, which is of course, a reference to outerspace.

Not only Muhammad, like other men of his time, believed that the sky had seven layers, he also thought that the Earth was made of seven layers too.

“Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number…” [Quran 65.12]

1st layer: Lithosphere (water)

2nd layer: Lithosphere (land)

3rd layer: Asthenosphere

4th layer: Upper Mantle

5th layer: Inner Mantle

6th layer: Outer Core

7th layer: Inner Core



This verse is also 100% scientific.

Muhammad was simply stating what seemed to be obvious to the people of his time but of course he was dead wrong according to the modern science.

This is false as we have just proven above.

You call this Science. Firstly, MountEvrest is one of the biggest "pegs" on this planet yet it is only 50 million years old, this mauntain was never "placed" it came about because the land we walk on does move under us which is the complete opposite of what you beleive and have quoted.

One word: Isostasy.

The New world that Awaits You

As you come to the Qur'an, you come to a new world. No other venture in your life can be so momentous and crucial,so blissful and rewarding, as your journey to and through the Qur'an. It is a journey that will take you through the endless joys and riches of the words that your Creator and Lord has sent to you and all mankind. Here you will find a world of untold treasures of knowledge and wisdom to guide you on the pathways of life, to mould your thoughts and actions. In it you will find deep Insights to enrichyou and steer you along the right course.From it you will receive a radiant light to illumine the deeper reaches of your soul. Here you will encounter profound emotions,a warmth to melt your heart and bring tears running down your cheeks. It is crucial for you because, as you travel through the Qur'an,at every step you will summoned to choose,and to commit to Allah.To read the Qur'an is nothing less than to live the Qur'an willingly,sincerely,devotedly,and totally.The outcome of your entire life depends on how you heed the call given by Allah.The journey is therefore decisive for your existence,for
mankind,for the future of human civilization. A hundred new worlds lie in its verses. Whole centuries are invlved in its moments. Know, then, that it is the Qur'an,and only the Qur'an,whichcan lead you on and on to success and glory in this world and in the world to come.

What is the Qur'an?

It is beyond man's power to comprehend,or to dscribe, the greateness and importance of what the Qur'an holds for him.Yet,to begin with, you must have some idea of what it is and what it means to you ,and such that you are inspired to immerse the whole of yourself in the Qur'an,in total commitment,complete dedication and ceaseless pursuit,as it demands.

The Qur'an is Allah's greatst blessing or you .It is the fulfilment of His promise to Adam and his descendants:'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall e on them, neither shall they sorrow'(al Baqarah 2:38).It is the only weapon your frail existence as you struggle against the forces of evil and and temptation in this world.It is the only means to overpower your fer and anxiety.It is the
only 'light' (nur) ,as you grope in the drkness,with which to find your way to success and salvation.It is the only healing(shifa) for your inner sickness, as well as the social ills that may surround you .It is the constant reminder(dhikr) of your true nature and destiny, of your station,your duties,your rew It was brought down by one who is powerful and trustworthy in the heavens- the heart of the Prophet Muhammad, blessings and peace be on him. to your Creator.It tells you of Him,of His attributes, of how He rules o to you ,and how you should relate to Him,to yourself ,to your fellow meny other existence.The rewards that await you here are surely many,incrng manifold and the hereafter,but what awaits you at the end of the road promises allah in the Hadith qudsi,'the eye has seen not,nor the ear heard,nor the heart of man ever conceived'.and, adds Abu Hurayra'no human being can imagine what joys are being kept hidden for them in d or all that they did'(Bukhari,Muslim)

Qur'an As Living Constitution

Can the Qur'an again, be living, relevant force, as powerful for us now 1400 years away, as it was then? This is the most crucial question that we must answer if we wish to shape our destiny afresh under the guidance of the Qur'an.

There appear, however, to be some difficulties. Not least of which has to do with the fact that Qur'an was revealed at a certain point in time. Since then we have traveled a long way, made gigantic leaps in technological know-how, and seen considerable social changes take place in human society. Moreover, most of the followers of the Qur'an today do
not know Arabic, and many who do have little idea of the 'living'
language of the Qur'an.

They cannot be expected to absorbs its idioms and metaphor, so essential to exploring and absorbing the depths of the Qur'anic meaning. Yet its guidance, by its own claim, has an eternal relevance for all people, being the word of the Eternal God. For the truth of its claim, it seems to me, it must be possible for us to receive, experience, and understand the Qur'an as it's first recipients did, at least in some measure and to some degree. We seem to almost have a right to this possibility of receiving God's guidance in its fullnes and with all its riches and joys. In other words despite historical incidence of the revelation in a particular language at that particular time and place, we should be capable of receiving the Qur'an now (because its message is eternal), capable of making its message as much a real part of our lives as it was for the first believers and with the same urgent and profound relevance
for all our present concerns and experiences.

But how do we do this? To put it very forthrightly, only by entering the world of the Qur'an as if Allah were speaking to us through it now and today, and by fullfilling the necessary conditions for such an encounter. Firstly, then, we must realize what Qur'an as the word of God is and means to us, and bring all the reverence, love, longing and will to act that this realization demands. Secondly, we must read it as it asks to be read, as Allah's Messenger instructed us, as his Companions
read it. Thirdly, we must bring each word of the Qur'an to bear upon our own realities and concerns by transcending the barriers of time, culture and change.

For the first addressees, the Qur'an was a contemporary event. Its language and style, its eloquence anda rationale, its idiom and metaphor, its symbols and parables,its moments and events were all rooted in their own setting. These people were both witnesses to and in a sense, paticipants in the whole act of revelation as it unfolded over a period of their own time. We do not have the same privilege; yet, in some measures, the same ought to be true for us. By understanding and obeying the Qur'an in our own setting, we will find it, as far as possible, as much a contemporary event for ourselves as it was then. For the essense of man has not chnaged; it is immutable. Only man's externalities- the forms, the modes, the technologies - have changed. The pagans of Makka may be no more, nor the Jews of Yathrib, nor the Christians of Najran, nor even the 'faithful'and the 'unfaithful' of the community of Madina; but the same characters exist all around us. We are humans being exactly as the first recipents were, even though may find
it extremely difficult to grapple with the deep implications of this very simple truth. Once you realize the truths and follow them, once you come to the Qur'an as first believers did, it may reveal to you as it did to them, make partners of you as it did of them. And only then, instead of being a mere revered book, a sacred fossil, or a source of magic-like blessing, it will change into a mighty force, impinging, stirring, moving and guiding us deeper and higher achievements, just as it did
before.

Typed and sent in by:
Umm Anas