The Islamic belief and subsequently the Islamic way of life are premised on an intellectual basis. Therefore, Islam is neither a religion nor a set of values and rituals that arise from blind faith. Rather, Islam is an intellectual belief from which emanates a comprehensive socio-political and economic system. To understand the unique system that Islam offers necessitates the explanation of the Islamic belief i.e. the belief in God, Allah (swt) and the word of God, and the Qur'aan.
God: The arguments
Today if you mention God then you'll probably get a negative reaction. It has become the trend to get on with life and not bother to ask the question whether there is a God or not. In fact this question was not even asked much in the days of old, when you simply had to believe in God or be persecuted. Therefore, it is not surprising that people find it easy to believe that the existence of God is a myth, simply because they have never thought deeply about the idea.
It is because people continued to believe in God blindly i.e. blind faith, rather than use ration, that science and its attempted explanations of universal phenomena was hailed as the 'new (false) God'.
But let us deal with both arguments - for and against the existence of a Creator - from a rational perspective. A common argument by many Christians and some other religions is that God is the God of many abstract attributes such as Love, Peace, Mercy which indeed are admirable qualities for human beings to aspire to. This characterisation of God is based upon an implicit assumption that God can be likened to human beings thus the attempt to understand God in a human framework. Accordingly, we find in some societies, such as early Greek, that individual gods were used to represent single human attributes, and in other cultures gods have the quality to reproduce.
The question this begs is whether the essence of an unlimited Creator is understandable through a limited, imperfect human mind when God lies beyond our perception? Rational thought would dictate that if God exists then knowledge of God's attributes can only come from itself. Therefore, famine in the world leading to the deaths of millions would not deny the Justice, Mercy or Love of a supposed God, but would only if one attributed the human essence to God. Similarly, if one understands God as the Governor and Controller of the universe then the notion of God dying is nonsensical. This is the failure of Christianity and indeed all religions, as their belief becomes a matter of blind faith. Consequently, they allow themselves to be plagued by rational contradictions, which inevitably lead to intellectual rise to disprove the existence of God. Are these arguments valid? To understand the validity of any proposed argument the premise should be examined. Science is concerned with the methodology of processes in the physical world, i.e. it deals with 'how' and not 'why'. Thus scientists are not concerned with why gravity exists but how gravity influences bodies to shape this universe.
The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observation of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not the intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable'. Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God.
Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion that is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is Love.
To prove or disprove the existence of a Creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only the rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.
The rational thought
Man progresses as a result of his thoughts concerning everything around him. Thoughts are what distinguish man from other animals and without them man would be lost. Thought occurs when man receives information about something through his five senses. He then distinguishes it by linking it to previous information and experiences he has encountered. For example, a person comes across a plant. He knows that it is a plant due to previous knowledge of what a plant looks like. But only when he links it with previous information on the various types of plants will he be able to tell if it is edible or poisonous.
Hence, just receiving information is not enough. It will remain only as information that we cannot appreciate or understand. However the process of linking it to previous information and distinguishing the information is the process of thought and is the key of understanding and progressing.
Consequently, when man becomes convinced of the correctness of a thought, it becomes a concept, which he carries, thus, affecting his behaviour. For example, if we carry a concept of dislike of someone, it will affect our behaviour towards that person. So we see that carrying false ideas has serious implications for a person and if such false ideas are carried widely it has serious implications for society.
Thus the idea and question of God has serious implications because the answer obtained becomes the very basis by which we understand the creation and purpose of man, life and the universe. Therefore, the method used should not merely be the rational thought but be comprehensive and agree with reality. Anything hypothetical or emotional should be rejected since their basis disagrees with ration and reality.
The rational proof
When we look around at everything we can sense one factor is shared by these things, they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite.
Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies and planets. All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.
The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality, which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.
A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.
There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created. Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring it into, or sustain its existence.
The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? It is dependent on something to start and sustain life; and something to plan and develop life.
The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a Creator, which has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.
Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it does not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses an idea of ' Infinity’, which we know does not exist in reality. It does not, or even make an attempt, to explain-the very first step in the sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how is it possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for the creation of the universe?
Conclusion
Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for the existence of a Creator, what Muslims call Allah (swt).
This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah (swt) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding. Blind belief has no place in Islam. Believing through instinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and add error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of the belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it?
“Whoever puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is Allah for him.”
I think that is a very open ended question, do I think a cultural society should afford rights to it's subjects then yes. Do I believe in human rights? I can't say that I do! What is the point to your question.
There are without doubt more of those in the Quran, but those are the ones which members of this forum have verified.
To present conclusive proof doesnt however mean everyone will believe - just like the pagans who witnessed the miracles of the Prophet Muhammad - not everyone believes even if conclusive proof is given.
Q2. Now even if you're just a brain, how did that brain come to be. At the very least we're saying you exist, no?
Aliens created the brain, advanced knowledge beings have created my brain. They are my creator, my intelligent designer. They are my god. Before "them" I was nothingness. ("Perhaps")
To present conclusive proof doesnt however mean everyone will believe - just like the pagans who witnessed the miracles of the Prophet Muhammad - not everyone believes even if conclusive proof is given.
Conclusive proof for the proof of god has never been shown on this forum or anywhere else, even the parting of the moon in absence of scientific support by any means requires faith.
Conclusive proof for the proof of god has never been shown on this forum or anywhere else, even the parting of the moon in absence of scientific support by any means requires faith.
Like I said - I would not present the parting of the moon as proof to you.
Rather I presented the Quran and three aspects of it that proved it to be beyond human creation - thus true - thus divine.
Pay attention to the three links I provided - thanks to Ansar who collected them - put that in balance with everything else provided. It's conclusive proof.
Aliens created the brain, advanced knowledge beings have created my brain. They are my creator, my intelligent designer. They are my god. Before "them" I was nothingness. ("Perhaps")
umm *Scratches head* ok I'd like to see you back that one up.
Anyone sincerely wanting to discuss this based on their actual beliefs? :S
Aliens created the brain, advanced knowledge beings have created my brain. They are my creator, my intelligent designer. They are my god. Before "them" I was nothingness. ("Perhaps")
umm *Scratches head* ok I'd like to see you back that one up. hehe again, just for the sake of discussion, who created them? (I'm kinda losing hope in you Root, its obvious you're not here to discuss....)
Anyone sincerely wanting to discuss this based on their actual beliefs? :S
"Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.
Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.
And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.
Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.
After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?" "
"Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence.
This is not true. Surprising as it may sound, it's not actually possible to prove your own existence. Using your senses doesn't help at all in this question, because you're making the assumption that your senses exist before using that to "prove" that the rest of you exists.
On a very similar subject, check this out - it's the famous brain in a vat thought experiment.
But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.
This is no proof of god's existence, since you start with the assumption that god exists and has created things. You look around the world and apply a particular interpretation of the origins of the objects within it, even though there is no justification for that interpretation.
On a very similar subject, check this out - it's the famous brain in a vat thought experiment.
Things getting a bit off topic, lol.
My own personal opinion about that line of philosophy is that if were are 'a brain in a vat', then we have no real way to distinguish between simulated life and real life.
Thus, theres no point in doubting what we hav know way evidence or argument to even suggest one way or another - so we assume that we are real and we do exist and that we're not a 'brain in a vat'.
As a final note - what an inconsequential and pointless life it would be if you were the only person who ever really existed and you had a boring life simulated where you go to school, study and learn fake knowledge, have fake exams, earn fake money... that kind of thinking leads to suicide. .
On a very similar subject, check this out - it's the famous brain in a vat thought experiment.
I'm going to argue that Descartes himself, Mr. Brain in a vat experimentor, "I think therefore I am" actually logically proved the existance of a higher being (i.e. God)....be it the "scientist" playing with the brain in a vat or some other higher being
My own personal opinion about that line of philosophy is that if were are 'a brain in a vat', then we have no real way to distinguish between simulated life and real life.
That's precisely the point of the thought experiment. You have just as much reason to believe one way or the other.
Thus, theres no point in doubting what we hav know way evidence or argument to even suggest one way or another - so we assume that we are real and we do exist and that we're not a 'brain in a vat'.
So you're making an assumption, and therefore you cannot prove that what you say is true.
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimahh
I'm going to argue that Descartes himself, Mr. Brain in a vat experimentor, "I think therefore I am" actually logically proved the existance of a higher being (i.e. God)....be it the "scientist" playing with the brain in a vat or some other higher being
Well, Descartes didn't mention the brain in a vat concept, although you're right to bring him up here because he made very similar points. His idea was that there could be a demon constantly deceiving him as to what was real, so he would have to suspend judgement on everything he possibly could in order to find out what the secure foundations for knowledge could actually be.
On his proof for the existence of god: his proof is famous for being transparent in its departure from the logic of the rest of his Discourse on Method, and it is actually discounted if you follow that logic through properly. He basically claims to have proven god's existence because he cannot doubt it, whether for personal reasons of faith or due to fear of persecution from the religious authorities. Here's an excerpt from the wikipedia entry on Discourse on Method:
Perhaps the most strained part of the argument is the reasoned proof of the existence of God and indeed Descartes seems to realise this as he supplies three different 'proofs' including what is now referred to as the ontological proof of the existence of God (some argue that Descartes inserted his statement on the existence of God in the Discourse on Method to appease censors of the time; a very serious concern, as within Discourse Descartes points out that he was at first reluctant to publish the work because of the recent show trial of Galileo by the Catholic Church in 1633, only four years earlier).
I suppose your question is slightly different, though. There are many things that prevent me from believing in god, chief among them being the overwhelming lack of evidence for his existence. Following on from that, I think it's massively more likely that god is a fiction created by humans for various purposes than that an unobservable, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator being actually exists.
The famously sceptical philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked about what he would say to god after his death if it turned out that he had been wrong all along, and god actually did exist. He answer was: "I would say: God, why have you made the evidence for your existence so insufficient?" That just about sums up my position.
If god does exist, I think he's bored with us and wants to be left alone. After all, it's been a very long time since any event occurred that huge numbers of people would designate as being a miracle. Compare the situation today with the times of the Old Testament, when god was described as being like a person, with no embarrassment about making an appearance and performing miracles for all to see. Things have changed - either god isn't putting in the effort to convince people he exists, or he's been a fiction from the start and his changing characteristics are the result of the differing needs of human society. You know which of those I believe.
The famously sceptical philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked about what he would say to god after his death if it turned out that he had been wrong all along, and god actually did exist. He answer was: "I would say: God, why have you made the evidence for your existence so insufficient?" That just about sums up my position.
interesting... The Qur'an actually mentions things around that line, saying that people will be asking a question along those lines and God will point to His Creation and many signs as proof. Things you're surrounded with and take for granted:
2:118 AND [only] those who are devoid of knowledge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a [miraculous] sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they, say, spoke those who lived before their time [97] their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.
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