The Islamic belief and subsequently the Islamic way of life are premised on an intellectual basis. Therefore, Islam is neither a religion nor a set of values and rituals that arise from blind faith. Rather, Islam is an intellectual belief from which emanates a comprehensive socio-political and economic system. To understand the unique system that Islam offers necessitates the explanation of the Islamic belief i.e. the belief in God, Allah (swt) and the word of God, and the Qur'aan.
God: The arguments
Today if you mention God then you'll probably get a negative reaction. It has become the trend to get on with life and not bother to ask the question whether there is a God or not. In fact this question was not even asked much in the days of old, when you simply had to believe in God or be persecuted. Therefore, it is not surprising that people find it easy to believe that the existence of God is a myth, simply because they have never thought deeply about the idea.
It is because people continued to believe in God blindly i.e. blind faith, rather than use ration, that science and its attempted explanations of universal phenomena was hailed as the 'new (false) God'.
But let us deal with both arguments - for and against the existence of a Creator - from a rational perspective. A common argument by many Christians and some other religions is that God is the God of many abstract attributes such as Love, Peace, Mercy which indeed are admirable qualities for human beings to aspire to. This characterisation of God is based upon an implicit assumption that God can be likened to human beings thus the attempt to understand God in a human framework. Accordingly, we find in some societies, such as early Greek, that individual gods were used to represent single human attributes, and in other cultures gods have the quality to reproduce.
The question this begs is whether the essence of an unlimited Creator is understandable through a limited, imperfect human mind when God lies beyond our perception? Rational thought would dictate that if God exists then knowledge of God's attributes can only come from itself. Therefore, famine in the world leading to the deaths of millions would not deny the Justice, Mercy or Love of a supposed God, but would only if one attributed the human essence to God. Similarly, if one understands God as the Governor and Controller of the universe then the notion of God dying is nonsensical. This is the failure of Christianity and indeed all religions, as their belief becomes a matter of blind faith. Consequently, they allow themselves to be plagued by rational contradictions, which inevitably lead to intellectual rise to disprove the existence of God. Are these arguments valid? To understand the validity of any proposed argument the premise should be examined. Science is concerned with the methodology of processes in the physical world, i.e. it deals with 'how' and not 'why'. Thus scientists are not concerned with why gravity exists but how gravity influences bodies to shape this universe.
The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observation of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not the intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable'. Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God.
Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion that is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is Love.
To prove or disprove the existence of a Creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only the rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.
The rational thought
Man progresses as a result of his thoughts concerning everything around him. Thoughts are what distinguish man from other animals and without them man would be lost. Thought occurs when man receives information about something through his five senses. He then distinguishes it by linking it to previous information and experiences he has encountered. For example, a person comes across a plant. He knows that it is a plant due to previous knowledge of what a plant looks like. But only when he links it with previous information on the various types of plants will he be able to tell if it is edible or poisonous.
Hence, just receiving information is not enough. It will remain only as information that we cannot appreciate or understand. However the process of linking it to previous information and distinguishing the information is the process of thought and is the key of understanding and progressing.
Consequently, when man becomes convinced of the correctness of a thought, it becomes a concept, which he carries, thus, affecting his behaviour. For example, if we carry a concept of dislike of someone, it will affect our behaviour towards that person. So we see that carrying false ideas has serious implications for a person and if such false ideas are carried widely it has serious implications for society.
Thus the idea and question of God has serious implications because the answer obtained becomes the very basis by which we understand the creation and purpose of man, life and the universe. Therefore, the method used should not merely be the rational thought but be comprehensive and agree with reality. Anything hypothetical or emotional should be rejected since their basis disagrees with ration and reality.
The rational proof
When we look around at everything we can sense one factor is shared by these things, they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite.
Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies and planets. All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.
The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality, which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.
A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.
There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created. Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring it into, or sustain its existence.
The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? It is dependent on something to start and sustain life; and something to plan and develop life.
The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a Creator, which has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.
Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it does not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses an idea of ' Infinity’, which we know does not exist in reality. It does not, or even make an attempt, to explain-the very first step in the sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how is it possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for the creation of the universe?
Conclusion
Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for the existence of a Creator, what Muslims call Allah (swt).
This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah (swt) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding. Blind belief has no place in Islam. Believing through instinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and add error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of the belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it?
“Whoever puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is Allah for him.”
I can not be bothered to reply to the Atheists wrong stance on what i've said.
it's stupid of you as an atheist to moan that you're generalised, perhaps you expect people whenever talking about a group of people to say oh but not all of them?
One question i throw at you is please please explain many amazing facts about the Quran and Bible.
such as how were they able to make so many accurate predictions?
How was the Quran able to make statements about science, maths etc that modern day scientists have only recently found? This has been so powerful that many many American scientists and astronomers have converted to Islam as they have been bewildered at how accurate the Quran is with educational commentaries.
I can not be bothered to reply to the Atheists wrong stance on what i've said.
I am sorry to hear that.
it's stupid of you as an atheist to moan that you're generalised, perhaps you expect people whenever talking about a group of people to say oh but not all of them?
We will stop if you stop. So the next time the media refers to all Muslims being terrorists you will not complain?
One question i throw at you is please please explain many amazing facts about the Quran and Bible.
such as how were they able to make so many accurate predictions?
How was the Quran able to make statements about science, maths etc that modern day scientists have only recently found? This has been so powerful that many many American scientists and astronomers have converted to Islam as they have been bewildered at how accurate the Quran is with educational commentaries.
Name a few of those American scientists and astronomers?
This is easy to explain and in fact you have answered your own question. The Quran and the Bible do not contain amazing facts, or at least no one knew they did. Modern scientists, usually believers or in the pay of the Saudi government, have gone over the Bible and the Quran with a fine tooth comb and taken out anything they can semi-plausibly claim to be scientific and claimed it is a miracle. So the Quran did not, for about 1400 years, make any sort of statements about science or maths. It is only in the last 30 years or so that some people have claimed it does.
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
Dera Czicbson, You're saying that our beleive in God is similar with your example of teapot.It's you point of view and your own parivacy opinion, so I respetc it.However your refusal of God is based on your afraid.You're afraid of praying on God.BEcause if you obey to God, you will have to pray on Him.And you will have to forsake your some pleasant habits.YOu think tat ypu're nop worship anyne.However If you don't beleive in God, you have to wirship numberless thing.First of all people who don't beleive in God fully obey to Satan.We can say truly that they are slave of Satan.If you want to see how it occurs look some behaviour.It ordey you to get Alcohol or Cocain or make any other bad action and people obey it eagerly...In short peole, who don't want to obey God, have to worship endless thing...
However your refusal of God is based on your afraid.You're afraid of praying on God.BEcause if you obey to God, you will have to pray on Him.And you will have to forsake your some pleasant habits.YOu think tat ypu're nop worship anyne.
Don't you think it is a little arrogant to claim knowledge of what another man feels and thinks? Dont' you think that perhaps it would be nice to ask why someone believes something before telling them? Don't you think that you have done what rude inconsiderate atheists often do which is to say some thing like "You just need a cruch because you are not strong enough to accept the world as it is"?
However If you don't beleive in God, you have to wirship numberless thing.First of all people who don't beleive in God fully obey to Satan.We can say truly that they are slave of Satan.If you want to see how it occurs look some behaviour.It ordey you to get Alcohol or Cocain or make any other bad action and people obey it eagerly...In short peole, who don't want to obey God, have to worship endless thing...
Really? You think there are no good people in the world who do not worship God? There were none before Monotheism? No good Hindus or Buddhists? No good from Arabia at all before Islam?
But the real problem is different. Many bad things are done by people who worship God. They behead school girls. They blow up shrines and Buddhas. They fly planes into buildings. Are these people worshipping God or Satan and why is it worshipping God is not enough to make them not do it?
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
Of course not - think about it rationally for one second! If you can't prove god exists then you can't prove god doesn't exist. That point is pretty obvious really, and it's been mentioned a few times already.
hmmm...we can prove dat God exists....its just that some people are unaware of the signs...i said that before....
but there is NO proof that God doesnt exist < i hope you get what i mean
I can not be bothered to reply to the Atheists wrong stance on what i've said.
I've seen some useless debating styles in my time, but this guy is just unbelievable! ^^^
format_quote Originally Posted by mathematicci
Dera Czicbson, You're saying that our beleive in God is similar with your example of teapot.It's you point of view and your own parivacy opinion, so I respetc it.However your refusal of God is based on your afraid.You're afraid of praying on God.BEcause if you obey to God, you will have to pray on Him.And you will have to forsake your some pleasant habits.YOu think tat ypu're nop worship anyne.However If you don't beleive in God, you have to wirship numberless thing.First of all people who don't beleive in God fully obey to Satan.We can say truly that they are slave of Satan.If you want to see how it occurs look some behaviour.It ordey you to get Alcohol or Cocain or make any other bad action and people obey it eagerly...In short peole, who don't want to obey God, have to worship endless thing...
HeiGou's already answered this for me. This bit is quite amusing:
First of all people who don't beleive in God fully obey to Satan.We can say truly that they are slave of Satan.
It appears I'm a slave of something else I don't believe in - remarkable. It's fascinating to be told what I am and what I think.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tagrid
hmmm...we can prove dat God exists....its just that some people are unaware of the signs...i said that before....
Yes, you've said it before, but it's not true. As I've said many times, if you could prove god existed then everyone would believe in god.
arrrrgh do i have to say it again....the people who can see Allah's signs do know that God exists. the people that cant see them just come up with theories out of no where and say that 'God doesnt exist' although they jus cant prove it...
Try to prove the Tooth Fairy does not exist. It is nearly impossible to prove that anything doesn't exist.
What happened before the big bang?
There was no space and no time before the Big Bang. Therefore there was no time for anything to happen in.
A big bang from nothing?
From just space and vacuum....with complete emptiness....A big Bang? Without the help of Allah?
Yep. It looks that way. Except there was no space or vacuum - the entire Universe existed as a singularity: a single point of space with virtually no dimensions. The entire Universe as we know it (and a lot more) was pressed down into that tiny dot.
Also, 1 thing i wud like to point out.
The Quraan talks about the 2 seas that will never meet, 1400 years ago?
Who or what could have known about that 1400 years ago, there was no scientific equipment...
Well two seas obviously do meet. Which passage are you thinking of? Any person who has ever been to see a river flow into a sea knows that there is a space where fresh and salty water do not mix right away. The Portuguese found Brazil because they were sailing in the middle of the Ocean when they noticed it had turned brown and was fresh - they turned and sailed up it until they hit the Amazon. Everyone knew this.
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
Why? Why don't you try and prove to me that the orbiting teapot doesn't exist?
What happened before the big bang?
Nobody knows.
The big bang is the earliest event we can conceive. If you ask 'what caused it?' the answer is 'nobody knows'. You can invent a cause for it like god, but then the question becomes 'what caused god'?
The Quraan talks about the 2 seas that will never meet, 1400 years ago?
And what are these two seas exactly?
Who or what could have known about that 1400 years ago, there was no scientific equipment...
Please could we give the "scientific miracles " argument a rest? It's just pathetic. See HeiGou's post #102 for the standard response. It's been given every time someone's brought this argument up, and it's just getting boring now.
It is a sane principle that whena you talk about something you intend mentioning its perfect degree.For example when I tell you what aple is, nobody thinks a rotten or wormy apple.Most people imagine a red or green bright apple.That description of non-beleived people is describies the upper degree of non-beleivers.Of course every charactaristic of pagans don't have to be infidel and every feature of Muslims cannot be derived from Islam.My previous writing should be took into account with these perspectives.
For example some non-believers say:"Lİfe is a quarrel".Islam says:"life is working to gether".Which one of these is more benefit.The first one is results in wars and terror while the other encourage people to help eac hother.This is only a small example.Please don't stifle in that example.Answer main opinion if you want to answer me.
I want to say as a notte that I am not an antogonist of Atheists or any other non-believers.I love all people since Human is the perfect creature of GOD.God love human more than all other creatures.
Why do you ppl who deny the existence of Allah; continue to be in this denial? What do you think you was created by no1 and you came to life yourself, :confused: Do you think the chemical reaction that occurs when a fetus is being produced, process and structure of cells just happens by chance, all the functions and duty every little cell undertakes in the human, and other creatures bodies just happens by itself? Did the cells design itself with such perfect and flawless design? Do you think its all a conicedence? coz i dont think so! all this far too complex and with certainty can't happen just by itself, any rational person would agree to this and would know that there is a greater force; and that is Allah. you ppl who deny Allah really need to wake up, this is a very ignorant way of thinking, He created mankind from absolutely nothing and you deny him? too much ignorance as well as denial, :confused: Who created all the universe did it make its ownself? did big bang occur? :confused: and everything sprung up, then life came about in humans, animals, and every other living things? :confused: These are all evidence that Allah exist, look around you all of that is the proof of Allah, Sky, mountains, oceans, all of these wonders in the World as well as the Universe...yet you still dont believe? :confused: anyone with a brain would know Allah; the creator of the Earth, Heavens and everything in between Does in fact exist, and that there is not doubt about that! Look at it from this perspective every product, painting etc; is without a doubt designed and constructed by someone from nothing? Right? and they are its designer, artists; no1 denies this. So you could use the same logic when thinking about life, world, as a mater of fact the whole universe..who created that from nothing?...who design and structured everything with perfection, everything functions smoothly without any errors; Allah created all this flawless creation; with no errors in, including us! so why are you guys -> :confused: ! and probably still be after reading this; but even more! :confused:
In the Quran Allah says:
56:57: It is We Who have created you: why will ye not witness the Truth? 56:58: Do ye then see?- The (human Seed) that ye throw out, 56:59: Is it ye who create it, or are We the Creators? 56:60: We have decreed Death to be your common lot, and We are not to be frustrated 56:61:from changing your Forms and creating you (again) in (forms) that ye know not. 56:62: And ye certainly know already the first form of creation: why then do ye not celebrate His praises? 56:63:See ye the seed that ye sow in the ground? 56:64: Is it ye that cause it to grow, or are We the Cause? 56:65:Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry powder, and ye would be left in wonderment,
[Extracted from Surah Al Wâqi'ah] and many other surahs on similar topic
What science is coming up with nowadays due to all its advance technology had already been stated in the Quran by Allah, but you still deny? :confused: keep it going!
It is God who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that God has power over all things and that God encompasses all things in His knowledge. [Surat at-Talaq: 12] Though you still --> :confused:
All Praises and glory are due to Allah and Him alone!, the maintainer of the universe
P.S. i might have repeated points in my post that have already been expressed in other members posts, reason being i havent read no posts on this thread, i just wanted to put my opinion across, so if i have done this Please keep cool! :confused:
Why do you ppl who deny the existence of Allah; continue to be in this denial? What do you think you was created by no1 and you came to life yourself, :confused: Do you think the chemical reaction that occurs when a fetus is being produced, process and structure of cells just happens by chance, all the functions and duty every little cell undertakes in the human, and other creatures bodies just happens by itself? Did the cells design itself with such perfect and flawless design? Do you think its all a conicedence?
No.
coz i dont think so! all this far too complex and with certainty can't happen just by itself, any rational person would agree to this and would know that there is a greater force; and that is Allah.
Then why have so many rational people been atheists?
did big bang occur?
It seems very likely that it did, yes.
These are all evidence that Allah exist, look around you all of that is the proof of Allah, Sky, mountains, oceans, all of these wonders in the World as well as the Universe...yet you still dont believe?
How is the sky evidence that Allah exists?
anyone with a brain would know Allah; the creator of the Earth, Heavens and everything in between Does in fact exist, and that there is not doubt about that!
Many people with brains have not believed in Allah, therefore it would seem there is considerable doubt about what you say.
Look at it from this perspective every product, painting etc; is without a doubt designed and constructed by someone from nothing? Right? and they are its designer, artists; no1 denies this. So you could use the same logic when thinking about life, world, as a mater of fact the whole universe..who created that from nothing?...who design and structured everything with perfection, everything functions smoothly without any errors; Allah created all this flawless creation; with no errors in, including us! so why are you guys -> :confused: ! and probably still be after reading this; but even more! :confused:
This is the argument from design, also known as the teleological argument. Do you think I've never seen it before? I've responded to it so many times on this forum I'm not going to bother again. See here:
What science is coming up with nowadays due to all its advance technology had already been stated in the Quran by Allah, but you still deny? :confused: keep it going!
Please could you point to the sections of the Qur'an that deal with quantum theory, string theory and the mapping of the human genome?
It is God who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that God has power over all things and that God encompasses all things in His knowledge. [Surat at-Talaq: 12] Though you still --> :confused:
Right - just because someone makes an assertion doesn't mean you have to believe it unquestioningly. You are allowed to use your own intelligence to think about these things.
Then why have so many rational people been atheists?
thats a matter of opinion :confused:
It seems very likely that it did, yes.
ok thats what you believe and can keep believing in that, aint no problem
How is the sky evidence that Allah exists?
Umm whats holding the sky up...strings? what makes the cloud float in the sky? Allah is the controller of everything
Many people with brains have not believed in Allah, therefore it would seem there is considerable doubt about what you say.
and also many ppl with brains, and some without have believed in Allah!
This is the argument from design, also known as the teleological argument. Do you think I've never seen it before? I've responded to it so many times on this forum I'm not going to bother again. See here:
Please could you point to the sections of the Qur'an that deal with quantum theory, string theory and the mapping of the human genome?
What i meant to say SOME then...and i will bring you an example what has already been stated in the Quran but umm non-believers or scientists had to work it out themsleves.
Right - just because someone makes an assertion doesn't mean you have to believe it unquestioningly. You are allowed to use your own intelligence to think about these things.
yea where have i said you cant use your own intelligence, but who's given you that intelligence? Allah gave it, He is the real provide of everything! and i was just expressing my opinion, im sure i said that :confused: and not get into a debate with you
Furthermore, i wasnt tryna convince you Allah does exist, because obviosly i cant do that, i dont think anyone can! you just have to wait and see till the day we all return to Yours, everyone and everything else, CREATOR (Allah)..im sure everyone with the same views on this matter as you will then and only then truly believe
Why? Why don't you try and prove to me that the orbiting teapot doesn't exist?
In such cases it just becomes a discussion of the attributes of the entity in question. I don't believe in an orbiting teapot because its attributes are contradictory. This is just like the invisible pink unicorn argument or the ice-cream factory on jupiter argument.
When you say that there is an orbiting teapot, well a teapot is a man-made object used for tea. If this isn't used for tea and only resembles a teapot, then why are you calling it a teapot? If it simply some debris in orbit around our planet that you think resembles a tea pot then I do agree, there is a lot of space junk out there from destroyed satellites and other projects. So I wouldn't be suprised if one piece slightly resembled a teapot.
The problem you have is that you deny the existence of God without any evidence to do so, yet all the examples you can bring such as orbiting teapots, invisible unicorns, the tooth-fairy, santa claus and icecream factories were all either self-contradictory or inconsequential. You were better off using arguments against God such as claims that His attributes are self-contradictory.
Peace
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
In such cases it just becomes a discussion of the attributes of the entity in question. I don't believe in an orbiting teapot because its attributes are contradictory. This is just like the invisible pink unicorn argument or the ice-cream factory on jupiter argument.
What is contradictory about a teapot being in orbit?
When you say that there is an orbiting teapot, well a teapot is a man-made object used for tea. If this isn't used for tea and only resembles a teapot, then why are you calling it a teapot? If it simply some debris in orbit around our planet that you think resembles a tea pot then I do agree, there is a lot of space junk out there from destroyed satellites and other projects. So I wouldn't be suprised if one piece slightly resembled a teapot.
I'm talking about an actual teapot here. How can you be certain whether it is actually there or not?
The problem you have is that you deny the existence of God without any evidence to do so, yet all the examples you can bring such as orbiting teapots, invisible unicorns, the tooth-fairy, santa claus and icecream factories were all either self-contradictory or inconsequential. You were better off using arguments against God such as claims that His attributes are self-contradictory.
I don't deny the existence of god due to evidence, but lack of evidence! Besides, surely the burden of proof is on the theist, since they are making a positive assertion?
You've chosen to label some of the examples I've used as self-contradictory, which I accept in some cases, or inconsequential, which is your personal judgment, and so is really neither here nor there.
Let's think about the teapot argument: is there, or is there not a teapot in orbit around the planet? It has never been observed, so we have no way of knowing, therefore strictly we should be agnostic about it. However, the orbiting teapot is at least conceivable, since we are familiar with examples of teapots here on Earth. This is where the position is different from that of god. Not only has god never been observed, but no similar or analogous creature exists anywhere in the universe, therefore rather than being agnostic about god, it is far more likely that he is actually a fiction.
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