I appreciate what you are saying in regard to apostasy and it's historical context. Why, however, are many Muslims themselves afraid, very afraid of converting to Christianity? If my child, before becoming a true believer in Jesus Christ, decided to go the way of Islam, naturally I would be concerned. However, I would continue to love my child. She would always be a part of my family.
My brother ,... i guess you are Christian , and i have nothing against you .... but it is the fact that Christianity have lost its touch with Christ.
Im sorry if that mat offend you but Jesus strongly agreed with capital punishemnt whether it be apostasy , chopping of hands or stoining one to death as it is there written in the law that Jesus has said in the new testatment will not pass.
So the way that Christians think nowdays is tainted with modern ideas of democracy, the right to be free, the right to sin if you want to sin, commit adultery open , even though Christians would condemn this in loud voice day by day moralty amongst what was once a righteous relgion is dissappearing and new ideas are being innovated.
The Christians of old were more guided than the Christians of today if i am not correct? but yet the Christians of old even punished people for apostasy from Christ and even burned heretics at the stake.
It is not the case as time moves foward people in general are better thinkers than that of nations before. this is a misconception and it would shock all of us to know how advanced civilisations before us were.
I am not trying to be self righteous as a Muslim by saying all of this , the Muslims to have declined over the many years but the best of the Muslims were those closest to the Prophets time.
I apologise if i have said anything to offend you ....
I really appreciate what you had to say. Yes, I am a devout follower of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately I've often heard people say that Christians are hypocrites--and often they are right. There is a saying that says Christians are the only ones who kill their wounded. Obviously this is not taught in the Bible. I also try to point out to people that their is a religion of Christianity--and that's all it is--a religion; a name and nothing more. This is not true Christianity by Biblical defintion. True Christianity is involves an undevided and unconditional devotion to and relationship with GOD through Jesus Christ.
Im sorry if that mat offend you but Jesus strongly agreed with capital punishemnt whether it be apostasy , chopping of hands or stoining one to death as it is there written in the law that Jesus has said in the new testatment will not pass.
This is what Jesus said:
Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
Mat 5:39 But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Mat 5:40 As for the one who wants to sue you and take away your shirt, let him have your coat as well.
Mat 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Mat 5:42 Give to the one who asks you, and don't turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same?
Mat 5:47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same?
Mat 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Jesus Christ is about love, forgivness, and atonement.
Muslims to have declined over the many years but the best of the Muslims were those closest to the Prophets time
Anybody, be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, or anyone else who rely on a law approach of trying to get to GOD through a "good deeds" approach are going to decline. It is human nature to fall away from GOD. This why, as a true follower of Jesus Christ, I humbly accept my sinful nature, confess to GOD that by nature I'm on the decline, and simply accept His wonderful gift of salvation. I don't have to strive for it. I don't have to outweigh evil with good. I could never match His expectations. But I can--and have--accepted His gift of love for me.
Thank you for your honesty. You have not offended me in any way. I appreciate your openness and willingness to dialogue.
We find in the ‘New Testament’ in the book of John chapter 8 that the Jews bring a woman to Jesus who they had accused of the grave crime of adultery. Take note that the Jews stated that Prophet Moses in the law (torah) commanded that such a person should be stoned (John 8:verse:5) In which Leviticus 20:10 lays down this Mosaic law that those who commit adultery are to be put to death. Even though stoning is not mentioned the statement of the Jews gives strong indication of how the Jews understood their Scripture.
Jesus knowing the nature of the Jews starts scribbling on the ground, the question is what was he scribbling on the ground?
Jesus told the Jews ‘he that is without sin cast the first stone’ addressing the witnesses due to the fact that Mosaic Law commands the witnesses to cast the first stone (Deuteronomy 17:7) verses 5 and 6 with this context also show the punishment is to be stoned to death and also gives strong indication of how Jesus understood the laws of Moses. Notice how Jesus never objected to how the Jews interpreted the Scripture.
Jesus started scribbling on the ground once more only to find when he looked back up all the Jews had disappeared due to their ‘being convicted by their own conscience’ (John 8 verse 9)
Jesus elsewhere in the Bible called the Jews ‘ye wicked and adulterous generation (Matthew 12:39) it could have been that Jesus was scribbling the names of those guilty of adultery in the sand and when the Jews saw their names they became ‘convicted by their own conscience’ as verse 9 of John Chapter 8 suggests.
However the woman was left standing there all alone with no Jews to convict her.. Jesus asked her ‘ where are those that accuse you?’ (John 8 Verse 10)Had it been that just two of them had stayed she would have been stoned to death.
So we see it could not have been an act of mercy when Jesus said to her ‘go and sin no more’ but rather he was following Mosaic Law which lays down the condition of two witnesses seeing the act of adultery for the guilty party to be stoned for it says in Deuteronomy 17:6 ‘at the mouth of two witnesses shall they who is worthy of death be put to death but at the mouth of one witness they shall not be put to death’.
Islamic Law is very similar to Mosaic Law in this regard but yet whilst the Bible commands there be two witnesses for the death penalty to be carried out the God of the Qur’an demands there be four witnesses (4:15)
However if a woman is falsely accused or even if the accuser fails to produce four witnesses against her then according to Islamic law the accuser is flogged with eighty stripes (24:4)
Jesus clearly indicated that he had not come to abrogate the Law of Moses when he said in Matthew Chapter 5 verses 17 - 18
Think not I have come to destroy the law, or the Prophets, I have not come to destroy but uphold for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot ( yod - the smallest Hebrew letter) or one title shall in no wise pass from the law. Meaning no Mosaic law shall be abrogated until the heavens and the earth is no more.
So clearly Jesus agreed with the killing of apostates and even says himself when he was narrating a parable ‘but those mine enemies which not that I should rule over bring them in front of me and kill them’ (Luke 19:27). The law of Moses commands the killing of apostates even if it is your own family member (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)
Jesus agreed with the stoning of the adulterer , keeping in mind that Jesus did order them to stone the adulteress, but the Jews cowered of after they seen him scribbling in the sand.
Jesus agreed with circumcision: We find that it was an everlasting covenant between God and man as outlined in Genesis chapter 17 and those who were to break the covenant were to be cut off – meaning killed! We even find that Jesus was circumcised (Luke 2:21) but yet we find Paul abrogating circumcision (Galatians 5:2 and Acts 15:1) in which he had no right to do reason being it was an everlasting covenant, and God does not break His convenants.
Jesus forbade the eating of swine as the law of Moses clearly forbids the eating of swine (Leviticus 11:7-8 and Deuteronomy 14:8) but yet humans seem to think they have some divine right to abrogate the law that Jesus came to uphold, what makes common people better than Jesus?
Paul and his followers should have heeded the warning of Jesus when he said ‘not one jot or title shall in no wise pass from the Law’ and the following verse after this:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19:20)
Jesus relates a parable to the Jews in which he concludes that the kingdom of God will be taken away from the Jews and given to another nation (Matthew 21:33-43)
The fact that Jesus states that the Jews had the Kingdom of God implicates the Law in which they had, but yet when we look at the Christians they don’t seem to have the Kingdom of God (the law) that the Jews had but if we examine the Islamic Law you will see a striking resemblance, therefore one must question himself as to which nation did God give his Kingdom to?
peace ...you posted as i was just preparing the post above
Appreciate what you say, about sins and love and all of that ....
Islam does not teach to be self righteous and it definately doesnt teach a deeds based faith, it promotes faith and good deeds, but still one person do do one good deed and a million bad deeds and still eneter the garden by his faith depending on his sincerity in his repentance to his Lord.
I also understand that you may call God the father and liken His love for His creation like a fathers love but in Islam you can have an even deeper personal relationship with God .
the Holy Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said
Allah divided Mercy into one-hundred parts and He kept its ninety-nine parts with Him and sent down its one part on the earth, and because of that, its one single part, His creations are Merciful to each other, so that even the mare lifts up its hoofs away from its baby animal, lest it should trample on it. (Sahih Bukhari 8:29)
the most merciful creature is a mother to its ofspring, which is a far greater connection than a son and father relationship, in Islam Allah is more loving than a mother to its child.
One thing i like about the Christians is their love for God but i dont like their abandonment of the Law of God.
One thing i like about the Jews is their following of the Law of God but they have abandoned the Love of God.
with Muslims they love God and follow His Law and God loves them , especially those who repent for their sins (Quran 2:222)
thanks for your dialouge to and your welcome ... peace
Again, I appreciate your feedback. I can tell you are well versed in the Scriptures and the Qu’ran.
“With Muslims they love God and follow His Law and God loves them , especially those who repent for their sins.”
I think this is one of the differences between Islam and Christianity. In Islam, GOD is understood to love those who follow His law; those who are righteous; those who repent for their sins. In Christianity, GOD loves the prostitute and the tax collector; He loves the sinner and the unrighteous—so much does He love them, that He came to this earth to pay the penalty for their transgression of the law.
To say “especially those who repent for their sins”, is that not the same as saying GOD has favorites; that GOD loves certain people more than others?
This response is quite long. Thank you again for your dialogue.
“Take note that the Jews stated that Prophet Moses in the law (torah) commanded that such a person should be stoned (John 8:verse:5) In which Leviticus 20:10 lays down this Mosaic law that those who commit adultery are to be put to death.”
Yes, I agree with you. I also think it is important to note why these men brought this women to Jesus. John 8:6 says, “They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing Him (Jesus). One of the first questions that comes to my mind, is if Jesus was fulfilling the laws and promoting the laws as they were given, then why would these Pharisees and teachers of the law try to trap Him? No, Jesus did not come to break the law. However, Jesus did come to do more than simply keep the law; He came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17). There was more to the law than these people understood, and what Jesus was trying to teach them, they did not like.
“Notice how Jesus never objected to how the Jews interpreted the Scripture.”
You are exactly right. But think again about this: Jesus must have been seeing more to life and its issues than the law addressed. The law addressed sins that people committed. People who were in authority and implementing the law, were people failing to see their own sinful nature as people. This situation is a great example of Jesus’ understanding of sin. Did these Pharisees and teachers of the law commit any sins worse than this prostitute? We don’t know, by human understanding and human laws. But in the eyes of Jesus, sin was sin, be it prostitution or a judgmental spirit. Jesus did not have this scale that weighed sins. Jesus was looking into the depths of people’s hearts and seeing the sinful nature of ALL people. When He pointed this out to these people, they obviously understood what He was saying. All of them, including this prostitute, had sinned in some way or another.
“So we see it could not have been an act of mercy when Jesus said to her ‘go and sin no more’…”
I think it’s also important to see the first part of this statement “go and sin no more” in John 8:11. Jesus said, “Then neither do I condemn you.” What gave Jesus the right to either condemn this woman or not condemn her? From where or whom did He get His authority to make a decision about her fate relative to her lifestyle?
“Jesus agreed with the stoning of the adulterer…”
Yes He did. However, if she was to be stoned, then everyone else needed to be punished for their sins. What gave Jesus the right and the authority to confront these people concerning their sins? Either He was contradicting Himself by telling them to NOT to do something He was in the act of doing (judging people). Or, He was more than another human being. Jesus was wanting people to see and understand that there was more to life than these laws. There was a higher standard of living than the law implemented.
Concerning Matthew 5:17-18: Yes, I agree with you concerning the issue of the law. Jesus made it very clear in Matthew 5:17:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
My first question is, why did Jesus not say, “I have come to keep the law and the Prophets”? Why did He say, “I have come to fulfill the [law and the Prophets]”? Jesus came to bring people a greater understanding of the law and the Prophets. As a fulfiller of the law and the Prophets, Jesus was going to keep the “skeleton” of the law that was given and was going to “flesh” this skeleton out. There was more the people needed to understand about the law than they understood at the time. How did Jesus “flesh” out or fulfill this law. Lets look at the next several verses of Scripture. In these Jesus and the law deal with the issues of murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, eye for an eye, and love for enemies. Jesus’ address of each of these issues begins almost exactly the same:
“You have heard that it was said…but…” (5:22-22; 5:27-28; 5:31-32; 5:33-34; 5:38-39 and 5:43-44).
With each of these laws, Jesus was about to make some “modifications”. Concerning the law, “You shall not murder”, Jesus pointed out that anger and despisement of other people was as bad as murder. How could this be? GOD looked at the heart of people. Maybe they did not murder someone physically, thus keeping the law by human standards. However, they harbored hatred in their hearts toward people; they spread false rumors about people. They may not have murdered the body, but they did a good job of killing reputation and personality. Yes, the law was important but there was more to life than this law.
Concerning the law, “Do not commit adultery”, Jesus pointed out that looking at a woman lustfully was adultery. People may not commit adultery physically, thus keeping the law. But many people, particularly men, look at woman and dwell on sex with those women--married women too! In GOD’s eyes, this is adultery. GOD’s standard on the law is perfection in every way—He is the Perfect Creator.
Concerning the law of divorce, Jesus pointed out that there was no valid reason for divorce other than marital infidelity. Once again, men were obviously abusive to their wives and very self-centered about their lives. The wives were there to meet them at their point of need, and if the wives failed, they divorced their wives. Yes, on valid grounds for divorce, the law of issuing a certificate needed to be kept. But there was a whole lot more to this issue of divorce than this simple law addressed.
Concerning the law of oaths, Jesus pointed out that real truth was more important than an oath. It’s easy to make promises and then break them. If a promise is not truly made from the heart, it will be broken. A yes or a no made from the heart will be kept—no promises needed. People tried promoting themselves through oaths and promises that were as shallow as an empty pond.
Concerning the law of an “eye for an eye”, Jesus points out something that almost seems contradictory. He says, “Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (5:39). This law of an “eye for an eye” is seen in the Torah—Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21. Law was introduced to make people aware of sin. It was also used to try and “balance” people out. Under this law, people could seek revenge for any little reason—to the point of making the law null and void. Yes, people must pay the price for their sin. However, Jesus tries pointing out to people that there is much more to life than retribution; there is more freedom found outside of retribution. Feeling like you need to pay back people for what they have done can become a huge burden to carry. If I may say as well, that Jesus asked His Father to forgive the people who crucified Him. He could have asked His Father to send them to hell, but he did not. Jesus did not pay back an eye for an eye.
Concerning the law of loving neighbors and hating enemies, Jesus points out once again the reality of the burden this law can become to people. Yes, we have every right to hate people who hate us. But, as Jesus says, even sinful people love one another and hate their enemies. Truly righteous people are different. True righteousness loves the enemy and prays sincerely for the persecutor.
Jesus concludes this whole issue of the Law and the Prophets in 5:48 by saying:
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We can keep every letter of the law as written and still be imperfect in GOD’s eyes. Jesus fulfilled the law in a way acceptable to GOD, not acceptable to men.
“Jesus agreed with circumcision: We find that it was an everlasting covenant between God and man as outlined in Genesis chapter 17 and those who were to break the covenant were to be cut off – meaning killed! We even find that Jesus was circumcised (Luke 2:21) but yet we find Paul abrogating circumcision (Galatians 5:2 and Acts 15:1) in which he had no right to do reason being it was an everlasting covenant, and God does not break His convenants.”
Yes Jesus agreed with circumcision. However, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law keep this commandment perfectly, and were still condemned by Jesus. Paul did not abrogate circumcision. He was pointing out the same thing that Jesus was pointing out. People were being circumcised, considering themselves to be righteous, and at the same time, condemning other people and judging them for their faults. In Acts 16:3, “Paul wanted to take Timothy along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area…” Paul did not abrogate circumcision. Neither did he abrogate any other law any more than Jesus “abrogated” the laws in Matthew 5.
“Jesus forbade the eating of swine”
There are two references in the Gospels. One is Matthew 7:6 and the other is Mark 5:11. Neither of these two reflect that swine must not be eaten.
In closing—and thank you for your patience—I realize this has been long. In Exodus 20:8 we read the 4th commandment by GOD to Moses,
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your GOD.”
Now, in Matthew 12:1-2 we read, “At that time, Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, ‘Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.'” In 12:9 we read, “Going on from that place He went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked Him, ‘Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?’” Jesus went ahead and healed this man. In John 5:16 we read, “So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted Him.”
This is my final question: Was Jesus Christ a law keeper, a law breaker, or a law fulfiller?
Thank you again for your patience to read this and give it some serious consideration. I look forward to your response
Peace I tend to disagree with what you have put forth concerning Gods love for the following reasons:
Even the Bible is shows that Gods love is conditional in the sense you have to accept the notion that Christ was crucified for the sins of mankind. Accept it or face eternal damnation ‘ he who rejects the son rejects the father – as it says in the Bible.
In Islam we believe in a Merciful God so Merciful that He doesn’t need to send anybody to be sacrificed, infact he can forgive peoples sins when they ask, that’s how easy it is for us.
Now why would God love the tax collectors, when in the Bible we find Jesus losing His temper flipping over tables and calling the Jews vipers broods and hypocrites, if you believe that Jesus is one third of God then I am sure God wouldn’t speak to people like this if He loved them.
According to the Bible He is an evil demonic deity who Sends evil spirits to trouble people (1 Samuel 16:14) even it states he is The creator of evil (Isaiah 45:7) he Gets angry to the point he hisses and roars (Psalms 30:5, Isaiah 42:13, Jeremiah 25:30)
The western Scholar Christian theologians quote from time to time has this to say concerning Yahweh
The God of the Hebrews is, by His own admission, a jealous God. He is sometimes an angry God, a wrathful God.
{A short History of Philosophy by Robert C. Solomon & Kathleen M. Higgins, pg. 107-108} so clearly we see the conradiction between the nature of the God of the new testament and the old.
He coldly murders 50,310 people for looking into a box (1 Samuel 6:19) though modern day Christians are ashamed to admit this so we find some of the modern day Bibles have reduced the number to 70 out of shame. He Commands to kill women and suckling infants and even animals 1 Samuel 15:3 and Commands that women’s hands are to be cut off for defending their husbands (Deuteronomy 25:11)
He does evil unto people and even repents for it (Exodus 32:14,1 Samuel 15:35, Genesis 6:6) so here we have a sinful god who repents, why does he repent and who to? when you have a sinful god who repents then you’re salvation is in jeopardy.
I definitely have a problem that the God of the Bible is a God of Love, care and Mercy who loves everybody and every thing is fine and dandy with roses and flowers and cuddly teddy bears.
There are plenty more evidences, especially proving that Gods love is conditional from the Bible, Islam holds God in the highest respect and we wont find things like God showing His backside to Mose’s (Exodus 33:23)
In Islam we believe God loves but He doesn’t love the sin and will punish a person on account for their sin not because He has a personal grudge.
I would encourage you to look into the Quran more and please don’t be offended by the above, it may come as a shock to you, but rather I want you to look it up and consider your faith and where true salvation lays.
Thank you …peace……don’t be upset …its not my intention to upset and I use a lot of references that I have prewritten, im sorry for them.
I appreciate your response. As in my previous message, my desire is to address each issue that you have raised--and I will do this, trust me. Before I do so, however, I would like you to address the issues I have raised. When you ask questions, I will answer them to the best of my knowledge and my understanding. When I ask questions, obviously I cannot instruct you to answer them, but I think appropriate dialogue does not ignore issues raised. If I ignore issues you raise, I would like to know this. So with this said, allow me to pose once again, the questions I put forth in my previous message:
One of the first questions that comes to my mind, is if Jesus was fulfilling the laws and promoting the laws as they were given, then why would these Pharisees and teachers of the law try to trap Him?
What gave Jesus the right to either condemn this woman or not condemn her? From where or whom did He get His authority to make a decision about her fate relative to her lifestyle?
What gave Jesus the right and the authority to confront these people concerning their sins?
Why did Jesus not say, “I have come to keep the law and the Prophets”? Why did He say, “I have come to fulfill the [law and the Prophets]”?
This is my final question: Was Jesus Christ a law keeper, a law breaker, or a law fulfiller?
Again--My desire is to dialogue and dialogue in a constructive and open minded way. I will address the issues you raised.
One of the first questions that comes to my mind, is if Jesus was fulfilling the laws and promoting the laws as they were given, then why would these Pharisees and teachers of the law try to trap Him?
They were trying to trap him on numerous occasions. should we pay tax to ceasar or not? Jesus replyed onto this very cleverly render unto Gods what is His and render unto ceasars what is his ....
The answer may lay in the fact that the Jews were unjust in their judgement of the law, they condemened people without evidence as hinted in John 7 verse 51. The Jews were full of pride and were hard hearted to the point that they had this false notion that God had to bend over backwards for them.
Therefore they rejected out of pride any fairness and were like how the Taliban are considered in the eyes of people today, all law but no Justice. For Jesus to be the promised Messiah , hr therefore had to pass their tests to meet their standards... we do find them bugging him continuasly throughout the four Gospels with sill things such as this .
Jesus was showing them the fairness to the laws which they had neglected, the Jews thought they knew the law but Jesus knew it better, he was reminding them of the ins and outs of the law, in this way Jesus came to FORFILL becuase the Jews were taking things way out of proportion and not forfilling it .
What gave Jesus the right to either condemn this woman or not condemn her? From where or whom did He get His authority to make a decision about her fate relative to her lifestyle?
As he claimed to be a Prophet therefore he had authortiy and we see clearly here that Jesus excercised the law in which i clearly pointed out ....the woman had to have at leats to witnesses to be condemed ...the question of mine that remains unanswered is what was Jesus scribbling in the ground to cause the Jews to be convicted of their own conscience?
Maybe from this they knew he was a Prophet but was that stooped in pride they refused to admit it.
What gave Jesus the right and the authority to confront these people concerning their sins?
i am seeing no point in some of the questions you are asking ... i would say Jesus came to FORFILL the law that the Jews failed to do.
Why did Jesus not say, “I have come to keep the law and the Prophets”? Why did He say, “I have come to fulfill the [law and the Prophets]”?
sorry dont know ....you tell me
This is my final question: Was Jesus Christ a law keeper, a law breaker, or a law fulfiller?
he kept the law as shown and also added to it as you have pointed out
i really dont understand what you are getting at....maybe your trying to corner me with something i dont see coming ...any way ...i hope its a new approach .....
i would just like to add to this that the word fulfil (my mistake on forfill) in the greek text is 'Pleroo' pronounced as 'play-ro'-o ' , it is a verb which has many meanings and one of them would be to complete, as in render perfect also means to carry out, carry into effect, to perform
now its very intresting that Jesus came to carry out the law by saying that none of the law shall pass until heaven and earth pass away which would be Judgement day
Jesus carryed into effect and performed the law and completed it, whilst the jews were incomplete .... the jews were all law and no love for God , you could say that Jesus but the Juice back into the stone.
I have to disagree that Jesus made Christianity complete by your view, because there was much abbrogation of the law in the Bible after Christ.
Infact it is to be considered apostasy to the way that Christ lived ....
which was entirely Islamic from my point of view .
You all are fast Hope you have patience--I'll try keep up. Order of response...if I may
Ansar Al-'Adl -- Atonement
Hanar_Aku -- Atonement
Azim -- Judgment Day
as long as its relevant to the issue at hand .... peace ...also keep in mind that i am not going to be around for a month so you have plenty of time.
i will view it after a while .... so no worrys .. tie it together
“Even the Bible is shows that Gods love is conditional in the sense you have to accept the notion that Christ was crucified for the sins of mankind. Accept it or face eternal damnation ‘ he who rejects the son rejects the father – as it says in the Bible.”
Mankind sinned. As a result, mankind faced a punishment. There was no other alternative…no other road mankind could take except the road to hell…until GOD, through Jesus Christ paid the price for our sin. Did this mean that the road to hell was replaced with a road to heaven? No. But now, unlike before, there are two roads: one leading to hell and one leading to heaven. No longer is GOD going to punish us by making us travel down the road to hell. He offers us the choice of traveling down the road of retribution to hell or the choice of traveling down the road of forgiveness to heaven. We cannot travel both roads. The road we take, is our choice.
“In Islam we believe in a Merciful God…”
In Islam, do you believe in a Just GOD?
“Now why would God love the tax collectors, when in the Bible we find Jesus losing His temper flipping over tables and calling the Jews vipers broods and hypocrites, if you believe that Jesus is one third of God then I am sure God wouldn’t speak to people like this if He loved them.”
Jesus was trying to make these people aware of their sinful nature. He had every right to be angry with them. He did not hate them and incite violence against them or seek their imprisonment. The Temple was a holy place and a place of prayer, not a market of corruption run by people who considered themselves to be great law abiders.
I question whether Jesus lost His temper. This is to suggest that Jesus lost His ability to think and act on a situation. Anger can be expressed in a constructive way with a very clear purpose and method. Or anger can be expressed in a totally destructive way with a destructive method and purpose. Spanking a child can be done in a controlled way or an out of control way. Jesus was angry, yes, but He did not loose his temper.
I do not believe that Jesus was one third of GOD. Jesus was fully GOD in the flesh.
I am a parent of two wonderful daughters. Trust me, times have come when I have needed to be angry with my children. Did this mean I lost my love for them. No. I love my children very much, but that does not mean they can just do what they want and when they want.
“According to the Bible He is an evil demonic deity who Sends evil spirits to trouble people (1 Samuel 16:14)”
Lets look at this verse: “Now the Spirit of the LORD had left Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD began to torment him.” The first thing I would like to point out is that this situation—the spirit and the person—are in the singular. GOD did not send out spirits to trouble people. One evil spirit from the Lord began to torment one man—Saul. Second, the verse says nothing about GOD being an evil, demonic deity. This is not the nature and character of GOD. The LORD did not begin to torment Saul. Third, I think it is important to understand the entire context of this situation. Several other verses make reference to this evil spirit from GOD tormenting Saul, even to the point where Saul tries to murder David. 1 Samuel 18 records how Saul, under the influence of this evil spirit, began seeking ways of taking David’s life. When you study Scripture more concerning David, you find that he was a “man after GOD’s own heart.” He was a righteous man who led the nation of Israel. He was the author of most Psalms that are recorded in the Old Testament—a true man of GOD. This is my question for now: Why would GOD send an evil spirit into someone else with the purpose of killing a man whom GOD Himself loved and respected very much?
“Even it states he is The creator of evil (Isaiah 45:7).”
Lets look at this verse: “I form light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster (evil); I, the LORD, do all these things.” First, the context of this verse in and of itself shows opposites. GOD forms light and creates the opposite—darkness. He makes or produces prosperity. The Hebrew word here is Salom meaning health, security tranquility, welfare, comfort, peace, and success. The Hebrew word used is not the word “good”. GOD creates the opposite of ‘Salom’. The Hebrew word here is ‘Ra’’. This word is used in many different passages of the Old Testament and includes the following words: evil, bad, inferior, wicked, severe, harmful, unpleasant, fierce, wild, sadness, and calamity. The context of the word determines the best translation to use for that word. For eg., In Leviticus 27:10, animals for sacrifice are referred to using this word ‘Ra’’. These animals cannot be substituted by good for bad, or bad for good. To say that these animals were evil, would imply that they have spiritual and morals and ethics. In this context therefore, the word “evil” is not used as a translation for the word ‘Ra.’’ In context of this verse in Isaiah 45:7, we have seen this verse to be a verse of opposites—light and darkness--yes; prosperity and “evil”—I don’t think so. A better opposite to the word of prosperity or tranquility or comfort or peace is that of disaster or calamity. Yes, GOD can create disaster and calamity, but GOD cannot and will not create evil.
“He Gets angry to the point he hisses and roars (Psalms 30:5, Isaiah 42:13, Jeremiah 25:30).”
Concerning Psalm 30:5: It’s interesting that you raise this verse of Scripture. Lets look at it, “For His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor, a lifetime. Weeping may spend the night, but there is joy in the morning.” Yes, GOD can be a very angry GOD. But His anger lasts only a moment…wow…what an Awesome GOD. How often does our favor last a moment and our anger a lifetime?
Concerning Isaiah 42:13: “The LORD advances like a warrior; He stirs up His zeal like a soldier. He shouts, He roars aloud, He prevails over His enemies.”
Yes! When it comes to GOD’s fight against evil, He is going to advance like a truly mighty warrior. He is going to advance over His enemies. What a Mighty, Mighty GOD!!
Concerning Jeremiah 25:30: “"As for you, you are to prophesy all these things to them, and say to them: The LORD roars from on high; He raises His voice from His holy dwelling. He roars loudly over His grazing land; He calls out with a shout, like those who tread grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.”
Yes! There are times in this world where evil seeks to prevail. Why should GOD stand back and watch that happen. GOD does roar from on high to confront evil. Again, what a Mighty GOD!!
“So clearly we see the contradiction between the nature of the God of the new testament and the old.”
There is no contradiction here. When things are wrong, do you just ignore them or do you deal with them—whatever may be needed in the circumstance? When things are going right, do you just ignore them or do you acknowledge them? The Old Testament was grounded on law to make people aware of their sin and GOD’s character in relation to sin and punishment. The New Testament is grounded on grace to make people aware that they cannot meet GOD’s expectations, but out of His loving character evidenced through His sacrificial atonement on the cross, He has provided a way out of punishment.
“He coldly murders 50,310 people for looking into a box (1 Samuel 6:19) though modern day Christians are ashamed to admit this so we find some of the modern day Bibles have reduced the number to 70 out of shame.”
First, the number of men referenced is 50, 070. I think you got your number from the King James Version of the Bible which reads, “…even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten…” “Threescore” is 10x3 plus 10 which = 70. Second, the literal Hebrew text for this verse reads, “And he smote among the men of Beth-shemesh, (because they looked into the ark of Jehovah), and he smote among the people Seventy men, Fifty Thousand men.” Third, it’s important to see that the people who were killed were men. Let us look again at the context of this situation. The ark (“box”) belonged to the Israelites, but had been captured by the Philistines. They decided they needed to send this ark “back to its place” (6:2). They get it prepared, put it on a cart, attach this cart to two cows, and send these cows on the way with this ark (vss 3-11). These cows take the ark to the town of Beth-Shemesh. Take note of these next few verses:
Vs 13: “Now the people of Beth-Shemesh were harvesting their wheat in the valley, and when they looked up and saw the ark, they rejoiced at the sight.” We need to ask ourselves how large was this town of Beth-Shemesh? Researches have come to believe that during this time-period, Beth-Shemesh was a relatively small village out in the country. What was the population? If 50, 070 men were killed, there was more than likely a similar number of women in this town. Then kids are to be considered. Lets say each family had an average of 1 child. Now you are looking at a town with at least 50, 070 men, about 50,000 women and about 25, 000 children—a total of about 125,000 people. This is my question: Is this a small village or is this a city?
Vs 14: “The cart came to the field of Joshua of Beth-Shemesh, and there it stopped beside a large rock. The people chopped up the wood of the cart and sacrificed the cows as a burnt offering to the Lord.” Do you think there were 50,000 people around this little wood cart, taking it apart, and then sacrificing the cows?
Now, the Levites (priests) of this town take the ark and the other box of stuff and place them on a “large rock” (vs 15). In vs 18 it says, “The large rock on which they set the ark of the Lord, is a witness to this day (the day in which this text was written) in the field of Joshua of Beth-Shemesh.” What I want to know is how large was this rock? We have no details. However, it had to be of some form of significant size and height to be identified as a “large rock”. Was it a hill or a mountain? I don’t think so. It was not identified as such. I point this out with the following question in mind. How were 50, 070 men going to clamor up on top of this large rock?
From the manner in which this text stands, and from the great improbability of the thing, it is most likely that there is a corruption in this text, or that some explanatory word is lost, or that the number fifty thousand has been added by ignorance or design; it being very improbable that such a small village as Beth-shemesh should contain or be capable of employing fifty thousand and seventy men in the fields at wheat harvest, much less that they could all peep into the ark on the stone of Abel, in the corn-field of Joshua.
Christians are not ashamed to admit this. Christians are deeply concerned about the accuracy of textual criticism and spend much time, not trying to simply change text to suite themselves, but to be sure that translated text is as close to the original text as possible.
Now, concerning the 70 men that GOD killed. Once again, do you know and understand the context of the Ark of the Covenant? I will try to be as brief as I can with this. The Ark of the Covenant was built to house and carry the Ten Commandments. It was considered to be very, very holy---containing the very words of GOD to the Hebrew people. It was to be treated with utmost respect. The Hebrew people had been given very clear instructions about how to handle this Ark of the Covenant and how to look after it. The seventy men who died that day disobeyed GOD and He punished them for it. GOD’s dealing with these people is a manifestation of his justice and His righteousness. GOD is to be highly respected and worshiped. Does this mean we must live in fear of GOD? No. But we must be aware that He is the Almighty and Holy Creator of our universe and us.
“He Commands to kill women and suckling infants and even animals 1 Samuel 15:3.”
Once again, let’s look at the larger context of this situation. These women and children belonged to the Amalekite people. The Amalekites are first mentioned in Genesis 14:7. Right from the beginning, the Amalekites are involved in war. They are mentioned several times in the book of Numbers (13:29; 14:25, 43, 45). Then we read this passage in Deuteronomy 25:
Vs 17 :"Remember what the Amalekites did to you on the journey after you left Egypt.
Vs 18: They met you along the way and attacked all your stragglers from behind when you were tired and weary. They did not fear God.
Vs 19: When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance, blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget.” The Amelakites were obviously an evil people who sought to destroy GOD’s own people.
Then in the book of Judges 3:13 we read, “After Eglon convinced the Ammonites and the Amalekites to join forces with him, he attacked and defeated Israel and took possession of the City of Palms.” Here again, we see the Amelakites bringing destruction to the Israelites.
Judges 6:3, “Whenever the Israelites planted crops, the Midianites, Amalekites, and the eastern peoples came and attacked them.”
Judges 7:2, “Now the Midianites, Amalekites, and all the Qedemites had settled down in the valley like a swarm of locusts, and their camels were as innumerable as the sand on the seashore.” They were getting ready to attack the Israelites.
Judges 10:12, “Sidonians, Amalekites, and Maonites oppressed you, and you cried out to Me, did I not deliver you from their power?”
1 Samuel 14:48, “He fought bravely, defeated the Amalekites, and delivered Israel from the hand of those who plundered them.”
The Amelakites were a reproducing nation of people raised and trained to destroy other people, particularly GOD’s chosen people, the Israelites. GOD chose to bring an end to these people, and that’s what He did. Did this make Him evil? No. An evil people brought about their own destruction. We must realize too, that children were being born and raised to war with other people. The lifestyle implemented on these children was to their detriment and suffering in the long run. GOD brought this to an end.
“Commands that women’s hands are to be cut off for defending their husbands (Deuteronomy 25:11).”
Again, I think it’s important to look at all the details in this verse. The woman risks loosing her hand for helping to defend her husband, but look at the manner in which she does it.
"If two men are fighting with each other, and the wife of one steps in to rescue her husband from the one striking him, and she puts out her hand and grabs his genitals…”
For a woman to do this to a man was a great shame, not simply to the man involved, but to all men. Hense this command. What’s more interesting concerning this situation, is can you imagine two men have a fight with one another. How is a woman going to have the time and space to be able to get her hands under the clothing and grab the genitals of someone who is in the active phase of hitting the other person. I think there is more to this situation than is clear here.
“He does evil unto people and even repents for it (Exodus 32:14,1 Samuel 15:35, Genesis 6:6)”
Exodus 32:14: “And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” This is from the King James version of the Bible. I’m not sure what your understanding of repentance is. Repentance is the active acknowledgement of something you have done wrong and apologizing for it. In this verse, GOD was getting ready to punish His people for their sin. He had not yet fulfilled His goal. The word “repent” in this context is better understood as “changed his mind”. To repent is also to go back. This is what GOD was doing. He was changing His mind as to what He wanted to do to Israel. Concerning the word “evil” in this verse: In Hebrew, this word includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun meaning adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displeaseure, distress, evil-favouredness, grievous, harm, heavy, hurtful, and ill favoured. When you look at the context of this passage, the Israelites had just made a golden calf and were worshiping this calf. Moses was on the mountain of Sinai, getting the Ten Commandments from GOD. The very first commandment listed is, “You will have no other gods before Me.” GOD had every right to bring extreme calamity, adversity, affliction, and distress on the Israelites. Moses interceded with GOD on behalf of the Israelites, and so GOD withdrew His intent to punish His people. In this vs., GOD did not perform any evil against His people. He did not repent in the sense of repenting from sin. He withrew from His intents.
1 Samuel 15:35: “And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.” The Hebrew word for repented here is “naw-kham'” meaning to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry. The context of this verse tells us that GOD regretted making Saul king. GOD had not committed a sin for which he repented. He was filled with grief that He had made Saul king.
Genesis 6:6: “And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.” The second part of this verse is a parallel to the first part of the verse and reflects the meaning of the first part: “It repented the Lord…It grieved the Lord.” GOD was not repenting of any sin He had committed. GOD was grieving and was filled with remorse and sorrow for creating man on the earth. Their was no evil or sin committed by GOD in this verse. Man had committed evil and this broke GOD’s heart.
“So here we have a sinful god who repents, why does he repent and who to? When you have a sinful god who repents then you’re salvation is in jeopardy.”
After a careful study of these Scriptures, you cannot honestly say that we have a sinful god who repents to anyone. As the study of these texts has shown, GOD is perfectly Righteous, Holy, Just, and Merciful. I do not have a sinful GOD who repents and my salvation is not in jeopardy.
“I definitely have a problem that the God of the Bible is a God of Love, care and Mercy who loves everybody and every thing is fine and dandy with roses and flowers and cuddly teddy bears.”
Yes, the GOD of the Bible is a GOD of love, care, and mercy. But He is also a GOD of justice, righteousness, and holiness. GOD so loved the world—including you; including me—that He gave His one and only Son--gave Him to die for our transgression--so that whoever believes in Him—believes who He is; believes what He did; entrusts their heart and life to Him—these people will not perish, but have everlasting life. Because GOD loves us, does not mean that everything is fine and dandy. People have to choose to accept Him and what He did for them or they must choose to reject it. People must choose to go down the path to hell or down the path to heaven. Many people choose the path to hell—this is not fine and dandy!
This has been long. I hope that’s OK and I hope you have read it. If you would like me to address Exodus 33:23, I will be happy to do so. Please allow me to encourage you to read verses of Scripture from the Bible within the context they were written. It is very easy to take verses out of context and misunderstand their true meaning.
Peace to you and thanks for your patience. I look forward to your reply.
“The force of reason is capable of compelling the
other party to accept one's argument.” Shaykh Salman al-Oadah
------------
"But set apart the Messiah as Lord in your hearts, and always be ready to
give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."
1 Peter 3:15
Infact i went for a few days , it seems there has been a power surge that knocked out the electric at the school, when they got it back on it kept on shorting, becuase of the outdated electric circuit they have its hard to narrow down the problem, they sent all the students home for healthey and safety reasons, the boilers are not working too due to the electric, they still havent put their finger on the problem , however i am still very busy, your post will not go neglected , i do have a few things to say.
i will open up a new thread about this when the time comes ....the nature of God ... because we are kinda diverting from the main issue at hand and its considered a crime here you get bad rep ....wasalams we have to keep to the rules and respect them .
I would just like to say that this debate is very interesting and oyu are both knowledgable.
But about the death penalty, a few things summed up that would put the idealistic or warm hearted person at ease:
- Only a Caliph may carry this sentance out.
- It came from a historic event, people undermining the state.
In these days if someone decides to change their faith, my opinion would be to follow the verse in the Quran quoted a few posts ago before the debate, the general message being "you go your way and I go my way."
If there are groups of people that deliberately try to corrupt Islam, and make people disbelieve it's a serious crime and in an Islamic state should be understandable why death is an option.
You have to take into consideration multiple factors:
- Is this person truly searching for God? If so maybe s/he didn't receive the proper education, which is why there should be time for council and education.
- Is this person trying to harm Islam? Which is why a Caliph, a real divinely chosen caliph needs to deal with the situation, it's not a simple matter to be taken into the hands of normal people.
That's my opinion (based on the information from these posts.) Open to criticism always
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Hope you have patience--I'll try keep up. Order of response...if I may
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