Errors

I am sure you will find various articles in the refutations section of this website

If you read these you will see that the Islamic texts are usually backed by scientific facts and common sense facts and realities.

In comparison I personally find that in most debates with people of the Christian faith - I have been told to rely on "faith" quite heavily - when the fact is that I cannot rely on faith since I dont believe in Christianity.

It is a very long topic indeed, because this would cause each and ever claim to be put forward and viewed...so my best advice would be to read the refutations section and see for yourself

format_quote Originally Posted by akulion

I am sure you will find various articles in the refutations section of this website

If you read these you will see that the Islamic texts are usually backed by scientific facts and common sense facts and realities.

In comparison I personally find that in most debates with people of the Christian faith - I have been told to rely on "faith" quite heavily - when the fact is that I cannot rely on faith since I dont believe in Christianity.

It is a very long topic indeed, because this would cause each and ever claim to be put forward and viewed...so my best advice would be to read the refutations section and see for yourself

I've been reading through the refutations and they are convincing. I also find Christian refutations convincing.

^ MashAllah Aku Brother well said and aggreed WalaykumAsalaam...I would recommend listening to Naik's debate with William Campbell & Quran Vs Science, he provided a suffeicent amount of scientific evidence to back up Quranic ayahs ...Peace x

format_quote Originally Posted by x Maz x

^ MashAllah Aku Brother well said and aggreed WalaykumAsalaam...I would recommend listening to Naik's debate with William Campbell & Quran Vs Science, he provided a suffeicent amount of scientific evidence to back up Quranic ayahs ...Peace x

Thanks, I'll listen to them. I still find the Christian refutations equally convincing.

format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul

How can Muslims find their justifications to be valid while the Christian justifications are invalid?

Saying "why are Muslim arguments good and not Christian arguments" is meaningless, you have to examine the specific arguments themselves, they are not the same.

Regards

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Saying "why are Muslim arguments good and not Christian arguments" is meaningless, you have to examine the specific arguments themselves, they are not the same.

Regards

I've been reading the refutations and learning a lot. At this point I don't find truth to be black and white.

format_quote Originally Posted by primitivefuture

Is there anything about the Trinity in the Bible?

Here's a good answer:

The Trinity is one of the hardest concepts for many people to understand. This is basically because it is an area that, limited to our mortal three-dimensional state, we cannot fully comprehend. This does not mean we cannot apprehend the idea, just that we will never be able to grasp the entirety of what it means to be a triune being.

We can agree that God is infinite. He is not limited to our space or our time domain. God is also omnipotent. He is able to do whatever He pleases in accordance with His righteousness. When God revealed Himself to man, He did so as a triune being. He is One God comprised of three persons. Each person of the Trinity is distinct, yet all have all the attributes of God and all are considered God.

Any analogy I give will break down at some point, but I will try to demonstrate the concept of the Trinity a little more clearly. Picture a corporation owned and operated by only three partners. Now, suppose each partner knew that his associates would make decisions just as he would, and they would agree on every way to run their company, so they agreed that each one could make any legally binding decision as its spokesman. You could then safely say that the totality of that corporation is represented by each of those three individuals. Each has a separate role in the company, but each hold all of the power of the company and its finances. Each can be said to be the exact representation of the company. The company is only one, but it is represented to the public as three owners.

Now let's address your questions on the Biblical support of the Trinity. You are right in stating there is no one verse that explicitly defines the Trinity. However, in order to consistently interpret the Bible, the Trinity is the only logical solution. We can build this argument on three bases: the Bile's claim to who God is, what God's attributes are, and what our actions toward God should be.

First, we need to know who God is. The Father is called God in the Bible in Matthew 6:26,30. Jesus is called God in Hebrews 1:6 and John 1:1, 14. The Spirit is called God in Acts 5:3-4. All three are classified as God, but we know there is only one God-being. In order for both to be true, He must exist in three persons.

We also look at the attributes that God alone possesses. God is the creator (Genesis 1:1, Job 33:4, Isaiah 40:28). Jesus is called the creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:13,16), and the Spirit is called the creator (Genesis 1:2, Psa. 104:30). We know only God is eternal (for more, please see "Who Created God?" ) and the Father is called eternal (Psalm 90:2) Jesus is called eternal (John 1:1-2, John 8:58) and the Spirit is called eternal (Hebrews 9:14).

All the other attributes of God are ascribed to each of the Trinity. They are all considered omnipresent and omniscient. Each has the unique ability to forgive sins; a power that is possessed by God alone. Each is considered sovereign. Each is considered completely righteous. These are God's inherent attributes. They are part of the nature of God, as all humans have a natural desire to survive etc.

This may cause confusion when we look at your next question, "How is it that Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I'". This statement, along with some others (1 Cor 11:3,1 Cor 15:28,etc) show Jesus relationship in regard to rank with the Father. This can be a difficult area, but let me illustrate. You have an inherent worth as a human being. Your life is valuable, and no other human life is more or less important than another intrinsically. All human life, from an intrinsic standpoint, is of equal value. The President of the U.S. is a person of perhaps greater rank than you, and therefore it is proper to offer him your respect, but he is no more valuable a human being than you. The same is true with the Father and Jesus. Christ did not start out as someone of lesser rank, but He was equal in all things with the Father. However Philippians 2:5-8 tells us "Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

You see, Jesus is the "exact representation of the Father," and "in Him all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form (Col. 2:9)." He is inherently God by nature. However, He has put Himself in subjection to the Father in terms of rank-- which is a far different thing.

Jesus also took on an additional nature, that of a man. Picture if you will a triangle. This will represent the God-nature. Now in one corner of the triangle draw a circle so the edges overlap. This is a crude idea of how Jesus shares two natures. The circle is Jesus' humanity. He can thus be both fully God and fully man.

I know that this can be a very difficult topic to try and get a handle on, but it is not unreasonable. There is nothing in the doctrine of the Trinity that requires one to dismiss the laws of logic. I hope this has helped you get a better idea of the Biblical foundation for the Trinity. May God bless you in your pursuit of Him.

The Trinity is one of the hardest concepts for many people to understand. This is basically because it is an area that, limited to our mortal three-dimensional state, we cannot fully comprehend. This does not mean we cannot apprehend the idea, just that we will never be able to grasp the entirety of what it means to be a triune being.

We can agree that God is infinite. He is not limited to our space or our time domain. God is also omnipotent. He is able to do whatever He pleases in accordance with His righteousness. When God revealed Himself to man, He did so as a triune being. He is One God comprised of three persons. Each person of the Trinity is distinct, yet all have all the attributes of God and all are considered God.

Any analogy I give will break down at some point, but I will try to demonstrate the concept of the Trinity a little more clearly. Picture a corporation owned and operated by only three partners. Now, suppose each partner knew that his associates would make decisions just as he would, and they would agree on every way to run their company, so they agreed that each one could make any legally binding decision as its spokesman. You could then safely say that the totality of that corporation is represented by each of those three individuals. Each has a separate role in the company, but each hold all of the power of the company and its finances. Each can be said to be the exact representation of the company. The company is only one, but it is represented to the public as three owners.

Now let's address your questions on the Biblical support of the Trinity. You are right in stating there is no one verse that explicitly defines the Trinity. However, in order to consistently interpret the Bible, the Trinity is the only logical solution. We can build this argument on three bases: the Bile's claim to who God is, what God's attributes are, and what our actions toward God should be.

First, we need to know who God is. The Father is called God in the Bible in Matthew 6:26,30. Jesus is called God in Hebrews 1:6 and John 1:1, 14. The Spirit is called God in Acts 5:3-4. All three are classified as God, but we know there is only one God-being. In order for both to be true, He must exist in three persons.

We also look at the attributes that God alone possesses. God is the creator (Genesis 1:1, Job 33:4, Isaiah 40:28). Jesus is called the creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:13,16), and the Spirit is called the creator (Genesis 1:2, Psa. 104:30). We know only God is eternal (for more, please see "Who Created God?" ) and the Father is called eternal (Psalm 90:2) Jesus is called eternal (John 1:1-2, John 8:58) and the Spirit is called eternal (Hebrews 9:14).

All the other attributes of God are ascribed to each of the Trinity. They are all considered omnipresent and omniscient. Each has the unique ability to forgive sins; a power that is possessed by God alone. Each is considered sovereign. Each is considered completely righteous. These are God's inherent attributes. They are part of the nature of God, as all humans have a natural desire to survive etc.

This may cause confusion when we look at your next question, "How is it that Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I'". This statement, along with some others (1 Cor 11:3,1 Cor 15:28,etc) show Jesus relationship in regard to rank with the Father. This can be a difficult area, but let me illustrate. You have an inherent worth as a human being. Your life is valuable, and no other human life is more or less important than another intrinsically. All human life, from an intrinsic standpoint, is of equal value. The President of the U.S. is a person of perhaps greater rank than you, and therefore it is proper to offer him your respect, but he is no more valuable a human being than you. The same is true with the Father and Jesus. Christ did not start out as someone of lesser rank, but He was equal in all things with the Father. However Philippians 2:5-8 tells us "Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

You see, Jesus is the "exact representation of the Father," and "in Him all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form (Col. 2:9)." He is inherently God by nature. However, He has put Himself in subjection to the Father in terms of rank-- which is a far different thing.

Jesus also took on an additional nature, that of a man. Picture if you will a triangle. This will represent the God-nature. Now in one corner of the triangle draw a circle so the edges overlap. This is a crude idea of how Jesus shares two natures. The circle is Jesus' humanity. He can thus be both fully God and fully man.

I know that this can be a very difficult topic to try and get a handle on, but it is not unreasonable. There is nothing in the doctrine of the Trinity that requires one to dismiss the laws of logic. I hope this has helped you get a better idea of the Biblical foundation for the Trinity. May God bless you in your pursuit of Him.

http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp020.asp

Greetings,

Is it alright if i ask some questions i have of my own about the trinity, if that is alright since i dont wanna get off topic in respects that this is your thread and I dont want it to get closed or anything...i can start my own too if you'd rather.

regards,

I am very happy that this topic has come up, since many Muslims and Christians alike use very weak arguements to disprove each other's faith, and if only they would reverse the arguements they put forward they would realise the problem they bring.

I would say that although many websites do use weak and easy explainable arguements, there are some contradictions which cannot be brushed off and that is what you look for.


p.s @ charisma, are u doing a new thread for ur questions? and is that how u spell of course? (in ur sig)

format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul

Many websites use perceived errors in the Christian Bible to discredit Christianity.

Also, many websites use perceived errors in the Koran to discredit Islam.

Both religions are able to refute or justify the errors. Of course such refutations and justifications do not seem convincing to either religion.

How can Muslims find their justifications to be valid while the Christian justifications are invalid?

That's a great thread, searchingsoul! Thank you for starting it.

I get quite tired with people trying to disprove each others faiths.
As you say there are plenty of websites out there, existing to do just that - and it is all too easy to cut and paste whole pages to make one's point.

I believe that the real truth is in our hearts.
To believe in Christian/ Muslim teachings, we have to believe first and foremost that the Bible/ Qu'ran is God's word.

Much as I have read, I have yet to come across any argument which can truly prove the authenticity of either holy book. Whatever people may say, there is no proof out there! (at least not as yet)
We believe the Bible/ Qu'ran to be true, because either we desire it to be true or we have some inner conviction that it is true.

At the same time, when you believe 'your' holy book to be the true word of God, you are not going to be shaken by some minor inconsistencies or errors. God's truth lies beyond these things!

Sometimes I wonder whether a strong desire to disprove other faiths stems from a weakness in your own faith.
If I believe Jesus Christ to be the son of God, or Muhammed a great and the last prophet from God, what does it matter what other people think about it?
After all, both the Bible and the Qu'ran state that not all will choose to believe, and that some will find the teachings to be foolishness!

Just my penny's worth!

Blessings. :thankyou:

Hi IsaAbdullah

Thank you for your lengthy post.
I have a feeling that you misunderstood my post, so I won't go into replying to each of your sections.
Hope that's okay.

I am not saying that we shouldn't talk about our faiths.
You are right, Jesus gave us clear instructions to spread his message and teaching. Telling people about my faith is part of my faith.

What I cannot do is provide proof for my beliefs - that's the point I was making. We believe by faith, not by proof . That's the point I was making.
My faith comes from being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

Muslim often say that their religion is infallible and can be proven in every way.
As searchingsoul at the beginning of the thread was pointing out, that is not the case. There are many websites which point out errors in the Qu'ran.

So the point I was making was that, in fact, neither Islam nor Christianity can prove in the scientific sense that their religion is the true message from God.
You may disagree with me, but that is my opinion.

Does this make it clearer?

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah

The bit that I am stuck on is, "What I cannot do is provide proof for my beliefs - that's the point I was making." So how come your in the religion that your in, why not any other religion see this is what I don't get, if G-d wants us to get int he right faith why doesn't his path have proof? How can we recognise his way?

I believe that we follow God by faith. If anybody could prove God's existence, would not everybody believe in him?
How then would we need to seek a relationship with God?

I found a couple of Bible quotes which may demonstrate this view:

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." (Romans, 10:17)

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." (1 Corinthians 2:4/5)

Can you see that the emphasis is not on sounding clever and persuasive, and proving God's message, but on the Holy Spirit speaking to people's hearts and convincing them.
I think this is a vital difference between Islam and Christianity.

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians, 2:13/14)

You see, what I believe will be foolishness to some. No surprises there!

See I agree that there are websites which claim to point out errors in both the Bible and the Quran.

Yet I often see weak arguements and 'errors' which can be explained easly.

See the problem comes that from my view the 'errors' put forward against the Qu'ran are not 'errors' but stuff which is explainable.
But with the bible although there are many false website propagating false 'errors' there are some errors which cannot be explained. Which shows the Bible isn't the Word of the Almighty.

I disagree on the count that neither Christianity nor Islam can prove their faith scientifically, I think Islam can.

I thought you might say that!

But as you have stated it is your opinion and this is mine.
Thank you for being patient with me even through my misunderstanding.

Peaceeeee

No problem, IsaAbdullah. Nice chatting to you. And thank you for listening to my views too! :thankyou:

Peace.