What is Islam’s understanding of this verse?

format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod

John 10:38 (New International Version)
38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

What does it mean when Jesus say’s that he is in the Father?

Thanks
Nimrod

Peace to everyone

For Christian maybe that verse states Jesus(AS) is the same, or being, "co-equal" in status with his Father,but there is another verse seems to refutes it in the same status like the earlier verse.
Maybe there is no official understanding or interpretation on that verse,but as a Muslim this another verse is an answer for me.
"I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28)

Peace

My interpretation:

John 10:38 (New International Version)
38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

So, Jesus is in God? Jesus has a physical body. Physical bodies are like boxes containing our soul/spirit. But it cannot be talking about only Jesus' soul since it is in the present tense. Therefore the physical body of Jesus is included. God is not like us. Am i right, Muslims, in saying God is a pure spirit? Anyway, for Jesus to be one with God would mean they were one in mind, body, and soul. It would mean being the same being. But since Jesus is in a physical body, and does not know everything, is not All-Powerful, then they cannot be one. So they must be one in something else. E.g. decision. One in the decision. It would be useful to understand the Hebrew.

In the passage of John 10:38, Jesus is saying something, and it comes down from verse 10:23

"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

John 10:23-30

They cannot be one in body nor power since Jesus is not allKnowing and not All-Powerful, you are either one or you are not. It looks like they are one in purpose. Noone can pluck the sheep out of Jesus's hand nor God's.

However if you think that it supports the trinity then look at these verses:

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

(John 17:20-22)
This means that the humans who are righteous are also one.

"Am i right, Muslims, in saying God is a pure spirit?"

I think the Islamic view is that G-d is not spirit, since the spirit is something which is created by Him.

What is God then? Or is that unknown?

format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah

There is nothing like Him, we do nnot know.
We know that anything we imagine is not G-d
So Imagine as many things and then tell urself, this aint G-d.

might narrow it down lol

Lol! I would get there eventually...in a few billion years...

Why don't you spell G-o-d? Why do you spell it G-d?

format_quote Originally Posted by starfortress

or being, "co-equal" in status with his Father

It is a reference to the Holy Trinity.

The father, the son and the holy spirit - 3 in one.


-

In the name of God most Gracious most Merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.



Greetings nimrod

John 10:38 (New International Version)
38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

To proceed I don’t think the bible can be taken to be the word of God because it is very inconsistent, there are too many errors.
Not to mention the many different versions including the 73 books of the catholic and the 67 of the protestant. Plus there are around 18 missing books from the bible. And of course there are many problems within the central beliefs of Christianity concerning the divinity of Christ, the atonement and the trinity.

I think I have said this before in another post, but just to mention it again incase you didn’t catch it
How are the following three (atonement, trinity, divinity of Christ) beliefs consistent with each other – bearing in mind:
Atonement requires the death of Christ but Trinity requires all three father (God), son (Jesus) and the Holy spirit to exist all at the same time or it is incomplete.
And if Jesus = God, then does that mean God died on the cross? And how is that consistent with the Trinity?

However back to the topic - about this verse.

What does it mean when Jesus say’s that he is in the Father?

It could mean they are one in purpose, but it doesn’t mean they are one in entity because it would contradict the following verse in the bible, when Jesus (pbuh) spoke to his disciples

John 14:20
“On that day you will realize that I am in my father and you are in me and I am in you”

So if you were implying according to this verse “Father is in me, and I in the Father." Jesus = God - then one would raise the question - how does Jesus live in his disciples and how do they live in him? And if so are they also, sons of God or Gods?

There are many passages within the Bible which are in favour of Jesus not being equivalent to God, some of the brothers/sisters have mentioned this, and yes there are plenty more.

I will go through the concept of Jesus does NOT = God, and inshallah (God willing) try to go through it step by step.
First let’s look at a chapter from the Quran - Sura Iklas Chapter 112,

Say; He is God one and only
God eternal, absolute
He begetteth not nor is he begotten
And there is no one like him
First step - God is one!

Iklas 112:1
“Say; he is God one and only..”

Mark 12:29
And Jesus said to him; the first of all the commandments is; Hear O Israel your Lord OUR GOD is ONE God.

I point out two things from this passage 1st - God is ONE, and 2nd - Jesus says “your lord OUR God…” implying that even Jesus is under God Almighty’s divine authority.

Iklas 112:2
“God eternal absolute..”

Deuteronomy 33.27
The eternal God is thy refuge"
(Psalm 90.2).
"From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God"

Hence God cannot die – which then questions the atonement

Iklas 112:3-4
“He begetteth not nor is he begotten
And there is no one like him”

From these verses its clear God has neither father nor son. And there is no one like him…not Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, Abraham, Noah…..no one…(may peace and blessing be upon them all)

Now let’s see how the bible is consistent with the verse in the Quran:

1) Mark 10:18
“Why call me good answered Jesus, no one is good but GOD ALONE.”

Here we see Jesus (pbuh) himself stating clearly that he doesn’t even consider him self as being good, but God alone.
To analyse:
Jesus = not good, God = good.
Jesus does Not = God

2) John 14:28
Jesus says
“…..My father is greater then I”

This shows
God > Jesus.

Just like 2 > 1 and they are two different numbers likewise God > Jesus they are two DIFFERENT entity.
It is not logical to have the same entity greater then it self, e.g. 1 > 1 not true, or x > x this cannot be.

Hence GOD > Jesus

3) John 5:30
Jesus says
“I cannot of my own self do nothing, as I hear, I judge, and my judgement is just, because I seek not of my own will but the will of my Father, who has sent me”

Here we read Jesus cannot do anything by himself, without God’s will. And we know that God doesn’t require any help.
Jesus does Not = God

4) James 1:13
“let no man say, when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God CANNOT BE TEMPTED BY EVIL, nor tempeth he any man”

We read from this passage, that God cannot be tempted by evil, but we also know from the bible that Jesus was tempted by Satan for 40 days.

Luke 4:1-2
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

To make it simple
Jesus = can be tempted
God = cannot be tempted.

Jesus does Not = God?

5) Mark 13:31-32
“of that day and that hour no one knows, no, not even the angels in the heavens, nor the son, but the Father”

We understand from this passage that when they asked Jesus about the final hour (judgement day), he didn’t know, and replied - not even the angels know. Only the Almighty ALLAH (GOD) knows the final hour. To simplify:
Jesus = doesn’t know the last hour,
God = has knowledge of that hour.
Jesus does Not = God?


6) "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite" (Psalm 147.5).;

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15.18).

"All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" (Hebrews 4.13).

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" (Romans 11.33).

From these passages we know that God has infinite wisdom, but what about Jesus (pbuh)

: “The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.”
(Mark 11:12-13).

From this passage we understand that Jesus went to find out if there where any fruits. The question is - why is he finding out, surely if God has infinite wisdom he should already have known whether the tree had any fruit and whether it was the season for figs.

Once again we conclude from these passages,
Jesus = doesn’t have infinite knowledge
God = has infinite knowledge
Jesus does Not = God?

And there are plenty more, that favour Jesus does NOT = God, rather Jesus is < God

Therefore even the passages from the bible is consistent with the verse of the Quran
Iklas 112:4
“And there is no one like ALLAH”
Not even one of the mightiest messengers - Jesus (pbuh).

format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod

John 10:38 (New International Version)
38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

What does it mean when Jesus say’s that he is in the Father?

Thanks
Nimrod

Greetings,

Jhn 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.


Jhn 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.


Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.


Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.


Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.


Jhn 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?


Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;


Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.


Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

This is not Jesus (as) putting forth the claim of him and God Almighty as being one in the same, but on the contrary as being one in purpose. In another verse Jesus (as) tells his followers that he is in them as well, clarifying that they are all one in purpose and not in being.

What is the Trinity?

Greetings, Snake.

The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

The Trinity
God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God.
Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings. God, is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.
The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. But this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

Is there subordination in the Trinity?

There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). Does this mean that the one sent must, therefore, be of different nature than the one who sent him? Of course not.
Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and in the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.
Is this confusing?

Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand -- especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have, however, done is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.
It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that in the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical.
Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
__________________
Sources:
Baker's Dictionary of Theology, Everett Harrison, ed. Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1960.

Berkhoff's Systematic Theology, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1988.

Grudem, Wayne, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1994.

Hodge's Systematic Theology, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981.

Snake Legs, I will do my best to make sure any questions asked are answered.

Life is busy at the Nimrod homestead right now, but I will do my best.

I just learned yesterday an intresting piece of information that may have an impact on the threads direction.

Thanks to all who have posted on this thread, I have found the answers to be very enlightening. Thanks your for taking the time to offer your insights.

Thanks
Nimrod