I wonder if there is an answer to this question...
When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?
Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...
Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?
If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?
Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?
as always a chritian and a muslim perception of how to view words in the Bible and the quran is differnt.
Muslims take it literally and we have an explanation for why when and howe every verse came to be.
But from albee reply it is clear that albee chooses to explain it in a differnt way that suit albee.
Albee is not special nor unique,as the bible that has been chaged so many times so has the itnerpretations.
in the Past ,crusaders and marauding murderer who burn women at the stake,behead mena dn womena and murder people for their heresy is the CHRISITAN Thing to do.
but in the current explanation of chrisitanity,it is all about love.
and albee say that men take time to interpret god word to its original meaning,for we are given god intellect...
but then agian,it can be said that they intepret it to suit their desire.
so ask yourself,a Holy Book that does not chage or one that changes with the times?
Greetings to you
This is a very basic example of why we use Bible verses, but put them into our own words at times. It does not take away the Truth, but opens up Truths teachings.[/COLOR]
Not only have man changed Gods wording for their own, but they have added new passages/verses making the whole BIble contradict it self. It is now full of lies and can't stand to the truth/facts doscovered to date as said by your Biblical theoligans and many others.
I can prove this if you want, just let me know if you do but there are plenty of sources on the internet for regarding this.
format_quote Originally Posted by albee
Yes, Jacobs life was preserved at that time. Also, yes,the time came when Jacob was to die. My original point was that Jacob had seen a Man, who was the Angel of the LORD, and Jacob knew that he had actually seen God.
But, we also beleive that through his faith in God, Jacobs soul was preserved, although his physical body returned to the dust.
But Albee, I thought everyones soul is Preserved? In Islam everyones soul is preserved, thats why there is eternal Heaven or hell. We dont have to see God to have our souls preserved so why say this? WHy would Jacob say Because he saw God his soul will be preserved when we know that everyones soul is preserved?
format_quote Originally Posted by albee
My father is fully human.As a child I lived under his authority and In a sense I could say that my father is a greater man than myself. But in my humanity I am as FULLY HUMAN as my father.
I know what you are trying to say, But it is still two completely diffrent individuals. In your anlogy if you live Under some one you admit there is some one else other then you which means there are 2 not 1.
format_quote Originally Posted by albee
We beleive that God is a Father, and He has a Son. By using the above reasoning (although poor), the Son of the Father is as FULLY GOD as His Father is.
I am as fully human as my father.We are both Human. Jesus is as fully God as His Father. They are BOTH God, but they are NOT two Gods[/COLOR]
When you say they are both Gods you automatically say there are two biengs, therefore it irrational to say that Jesus and God are 1.
format_quote Originally Posted by albee
In answer to the part highlighted in red:
Nowhere does the Bible teach that God punished His Messenger.What it does teach is that it was men who claimed to beleive in the Almighty, but did not beleive that Jesus was who He said He was that called for Him to be punished and crucified.
This is what people cannot grasp. That because God is so merciful, and loves us so much, He gave His Son to die for our sins, so that He would NOT have to Judge us. Our sins have already been dealt with because Jesus gave up His life and shed His own Blood.
This is Gods way of letting us escape from the Judgement that lies ahead.
Albee
Im confused about the letter in Bold, Did God punish Jesus by giving his son to die or not? Why did God allow Jesus to be crucified by those man so that the sins of those man who dare to crucify him are forgiven? And if our sin is already dealt with as you say does that mean all will go to heaven regardless of what they do? Doesn't that mean we can do as we wish? If we will not be Judged doesn't that mean there is no accountability for our actions?
To allow one to think he will not be held accountable for his actions, and if one has firm belief in this, it can have dangerous consequences and I dont see how this is Justice.
I would like your sincere answers to these questions:
If Jesus is considered son of god why don't you consider Adam as his son? Adam was a greater miracle, a woman wasn't necessary to bear and ween him. Also since Jesus was son of Mary, doesn't that mean Mary is a Goddess, or wife of a God? and that God is a Man? so shoudn't you worship Mary also?
I would like to say no muslim is a muslim unless he loves Jesus and he is one of the greatest Prophets, I would like your opinion on what you agree and disagree with what Islam says about Jesus on the link provided below:
and would like you to answer sincerely What is it about Islam you disagree with?
An example of our beloved Jesus in the Quran:
Qur'an 5:116-120 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
"Never said I to them anything except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things. "If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art the Exalted the Wise.
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens with rivers flowing beneath their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them and they with Allah: that is the great Salvation (the fulfillment of all desires).
To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and it is He who hath power over all things.
Last edited by InToTheRain; 08-14-2006 at 06:28 AM.
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
In the above verse, God asks Christ if He claimed He and Mary should be worshipped as Gods. The verse says "AND" not "OR", so if either or both of them are not Gods, then the verse has to be answered with a no, even if one of them is God. So this verse can not be used as to refute Christs diety. And even so, Christ never taught, as the verse agrees, that one should worship Christ in derogation of Allah. If Christ is God, then worshipping Him does not derrogate God.
The Quran is full of verses which make errant claims about Christians. This is one such verse. If you can find any authoritative Christian source that maintains Mary is God, please provide a link or reference to it. If you can't, then perhaps the Quran is in error, and if one part is in error, all is suspect.
I don't see how the Quran is Wrong or erroneous?....... I went to catholic school and I have seen people pray to "Mary mother of God"..... so what does that mean?
"Oh holy Mary dear mother of God Please pray for us sinners Now and at the hour of our death And ..." why do you need Mary to pray for you?
Why do you need to do it through Christ or a priest? Why do you exalt people to saint like status? Who wrote the principles on those things ... anyhow I don't want to assume you are catholic... I believe the reformation came about to change some of that ......I don't to this day understand why one would go to a priest who might or might not be a pious man to be absolved from sin? ... or pray to any other than God directly, praying (to) or (through) anyone other than God directly is taking someone else to partner with him… It is clear to the naked eye.... unless you offer a valid religious reasoning that states otherwise... I believe neither Mary nor Jesus (PBUT) have asked for.....
Last edited by جوري; 08-19-2006 at 06:58 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
The Quran is full of verses which make errant claims about Christians. This is one such verse. If you can find any authoritative Christian source that maintains Mary is God, please provide a link or reference to it. If you can't, then perhaps the Quran is in error, and if one part is in error, all is suspect.
Dougmusr makes a good point. I think that the entire Quran is in error but when descrepancies such as this are brought to my attention, it makes me (from a Christian perspective) believe that the Quran isn't infalliable.
I can understand why muslims believe Christianity is invalid due to the verses being translated differently , or even changed throughout history. I think it's equally important for muslims to understand why Christians have a hard time believing the Quran valid since it doesn't always depict Christianity correctly.
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
How does the Quran not depict Christianity correctly?
No one has yet addressed why people pray to Mary or Jesus or where in the bible it states to pray through or to Mary or Jesus?... why would Christians pray to someone other than God and call it monotheism? how should Non Christians interpret that? It is good to be able to write your opinion but it is also good to be able to stand by it with some proof...
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Well if this is true, then there is no ultimate sacrifice. If the soul part lived forever, and is immortal, but the man part is mortal and died, then ultimately what "Died for your sins" is an empty human body.
Hola MC,
I do not know very much about this but I will still try to answer... I do not think the Bible tells us much about the nature of Jesus... like how he can be divine and still human and everything... it just tells us that he is these things. So... maybe you are asking for a logical answer to something that logic doesn't apply to?
Like the New Testament says that Jesus is the Son of God, and is One with him... and it also says that he died and was dead and then resurrected... so I think maybe you just have to believe it... and if you don't then it won't make any sense?
How does the Quran not depict Christianity correctly?
No one has yet addressed why people pray to Mary or Jesus or where in the bible it states to pray through or to Mary or Jesus?... why would Christians pray to someone other than God and call it monotheism? how should Non Christians interpret that? It is good to be able to write your opinion but it is also good to be able to stand by it with some proof...
I read the koran... I do not think it really depicts Christianity correctly... or consistently. I don't really have examples off the top of my head but that was one of the things I left with after I read it... but that is okay because I don't think that was really the point of it anyway...
We do not pray to Mary... and we do not pray to Saints, we ask for intercession with Saints and Mary because they were great and pious people and if we do not feel worthy to talk to God we ask those more worthy to talk to him on our behalf... but we do not worship them we do not believe they have any authority over things like God does.
So I would say to answer your question how should non Christians interpret this, that non Christians should not think that we think Mary or the Saints are equal to God, we don't worship them, and our prayers are for God... but we ask that Saints or Mary deliver them on our behalf because sometimes we do not feel worthy to ask God directly...
How does the Quran not depict Christianity correctly?
No one has yet addressed why people pray to Mary or Jesus or where in the bible it states to pray through or to Mary or Jesus?... why would Christians pray to someone other than God and call it monotheism? how should Non Christians interpret that? It is good to be able to write your opinion but it is also good to be able to stand by it with some proof...
I was referring to the quote and comment from dougmusr. Christians do not believe that they worship Jesus or Mary. This is an islamic belief.
I'm not the best one to answer your questions because I'm not catholic.
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
I read the koran... I do not think it really depicts Christianity correctly... or consistently. I don't really have examples off the top of my head but that was one of the things I left with after I read it... but that is okay because I don't think that was really the point of it anyway...
We do not pray to Mary... and we do not pray to Saints, we ask for intercession with Saints and Mary because they were great and pious people and if we do not feel worthy to talk to God we ask those more worthy to talk to him on our behalf... but we do not worship them we do not believe they have any authority over things like God does.
So I would say to answer your question how should non Christians interpret this, that non Christians should not think that we think Mary or the Saints are equal to God, we don't worship them, and our prayers are for God... but we ask that Saints or Mary deliver them on our behalf because sometimes we do not feel worthy to ask God directly...
Gracias
interesting... was that a request from any saint or (Jesus/ Mary) for you to do? if you don't feel worthy you need to pray through us so we may intercede on your behalf? I think you should refresh your Quranic skills if you are going to bring it to the table as a valid point of discussion, otherwise it is subjective view and ultimately inconsequential, installed in a sentence for a clear psychological purpose of soliciting reaction ....
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
So I would say to answer your question how should non Christians interpret this, that non Christians should not think that we think Mary or the Saints are equal to God, we don't worship them, and our prayers are for God... but we ask that Saints or Mary deliver them on our behalf because sometimes we do not feel worthy to ask God directly...
Gracias
Thanks for this explanation Jayda. This sounds very humbling.
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
interesting... was that a request from any saint or (Jesus/ Mary) for you to do? if you don't feel worthy you need to pray through us so we may intercede on your behalf? I think you should refresh your Quranic skills if you are going to bring it to the table as a valid point of discussion, otherwise it is subjective view and ultimately inconsequential, installed in a sentence for a clear psychological purpose of soliciting reaction ....
I'm sorry I offended you... I was just relating what I thought... Maybe this was a bad idea
I was referring to the quote and comment from dougmusr. Christians do not believe that they worship Jesus or Mary. This is an islamic belief.
I'm not the best one to answer your questions because I'm not catholic.
Some Christian prayer and actions can only be interpreted as worshipping other than God especially when neither party (Jesus/Mary) had asked directly to be a source of intercession or an absolving medium between wo/Man and his/her God... That is the Islamic perspective... everyone is free to worship as they please no one is persecuting anyone for what they think is a wrong form of prayer.... but that is how it is plainly seen to the naked eye....
Last edited by جوري; 08-19-2006 at 07:11 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I'm sorry I offended you... I was just relating what I thought... Maybe this was a bad idea
No it wasn't and you didn't offend me... but I think if we are to have a "comparitive religion" dialogue... that we should bring what we think is in error to the table and discuss it as to ward off myth and enhance understanding... I was going to leave you +ve feedback actually for a good effort at explaining the Christian perspective....
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Some Christian prayer and actions can only be interpreted as worshipping other than God especially when neither party (Jesus/Mary) had asked directly to be a source of intercession or an absolving medium between wo/Man and his/her God... That is the Islamic perspective... everyone is free to worship as they please no one is persecuting anyone for what they think is a wrong form of paryer.... but that is how it is plainly seen to the naked eye....
Why do muslims choose to believe that christians worship Jesus and/or Mary even when christians explicitly state that they do not?
Do muslims think that christians are lying about their form of worship?
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
Okay... well sorry... I think maybe I'll just stay away from this area until I know a little bit more... I get very uncomfortable about these kinds of discussions anyway...
Okay... well sorry... I think maybe I'll just stay away from this area until I know a little bit more... I get very uncomfortable about these kinds of discussions anyway...
No .. please don't be uncomfy... I did in fact leave you +ve feedback... I hope that will interest you in participating more
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Why do muslims choose to believe that christians worship Jesus and/or Mary even when christians explicitly state that they do not?
Do muslims think that christians are lying about their form of worship?
we are not sure how else to intrpret God taking a son....anthropmorphism is strictly frowned upon... it makes God maybe more easy to understand... maybe more human like.... to us that is idolatry.... other than that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet from God and we make no distinctions between his messaners... nor do we mock or ridicule him... which is actually quite common amongst Christians as a way to attack Islam...
There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. -- 2:256
Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." -- 3:84
For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. -- 5:48
Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46
O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
we are not sure how else to intrpret God taking a son....anthropmorphism is strictly frowned upon... it makes God maybe more easy to understand... maybe more human like.... to us that is idolatry.... other than that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet from God and we make no distinctions between his messaners... nor do we mock or ridicule him... which is actually quite common amongst Christians as a way to attack Islam...
There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. -- 2:256
Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." -- 3:84
For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. -- 5:48
Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46
O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13
By refusing to acknowlege the christian claim that they do not worship Jesus or Mary, muslims are using their interpretation of christianity to form their beliefs about christians/christianity. Muslims are of course free to interpret christianity in any manner they see fit. Personally, when a muslim makes these claims, failing to recognize the christian stance, I don't find their information credible.
For example, when christians base their beliefs concerning Islam without regard to muslim interpretation of Islam, I find them to lack credibility as well. There are numerous Islamic beliefs, as stated by some christians, which I've found to be untrue. Examples would include the topics of virgins for martyrs, wife beating, islamic divorce, female covering, etc. When these topics are presented by christians (with only a christian understanding) they seem horrific. But whenever a christian reads about these topics, open to the islamic interpretation, the topics don't seem oppressive or all that radical.
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
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