Response to a stubborn disbeliever

**- Qatada -** · 08-19-2006

Question:

Did you know your religion was founded and developed by Catholics? I know Muhammad was your Christ, but let me tell you friend the God you know is not the God of Gods but the Devil of Devils.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

We do not wish to respond to slander in kind, but we will answer you, you disbeliever, with quotes from the Word of God (the Qur’aan), if you even believe in the existence of God.

O disbeliever, we debate with you in the words addressed by Allaah (the Arabic name of the One True God) to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and the disbelievers. He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary) was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word (‘Be!’ – and he was), which He bestowed on Maryam, and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One (God). Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of Affairs.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:171]

“Say: O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allaah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient [to Allaah])?”

[al-Maa’idah 5:59]

“How can you disbelieve in Allaah? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.”

[al-Baqarah 2:28]

“… whosoever disbelieves in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away…

Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His messengers and wish to make a distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, ‘We believe in some but not in others,’ and wish to adopt a way in between,

They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:136, 150-151]

O disbeliever, do you think that you can do any harm to Allaah by your disbelief? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… But if you disbelieve, then unto Allaah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, and Allaah is Ever Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:131]

You will only increase in hatefulness and loss in the sight of Allaah, you disbeliever, for you are one of the worst of living creatures, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the worst of moving (living) creatures before Allaah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.”

[al-Anfaal 8:55]

O disbeliever, are you not going to die? Or do you doubt that as well? Do you know what your position will be when you die, if you die in a state of disbelief? Listen:

“And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelief (at death), they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): ‘Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire.’”

[al-Anfaal 8:50]

O disbeliever, woe to you from what will happen to you on the Day of Resurrection! Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… so woe to the disbelievers from the meeting of a great Day (i.e., the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).”

[Maryam 19:37]

We have an appointment with you after death, on the Day of Reckoning:

“On that day those who disbelieved and disobeyed the Messenger [Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] will wish that they were buried in the earth, but they will never be able to hide a single fact from Allaah.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:42]

O disbeliever, do you know what Allaah has prepared for you if you die in a state of disbelief? Read:

“And whosoever does not believe in Allaah and His Messenger [Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)], then verily, We have prepared for the disbelievers a blazing Fire.”

[al-Fath 48:13]

“Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of Allaah and of the angels and mankind, combined.”

[al-Baqarah 2:161]

“Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from any one of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers.”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:91]

“Surely, those who reject Faith, neither their properties, nor their offspring will avail them aught against Allaah. They are the dwellers of the Fire, therein they will abide.”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:116]

Do you know what you will have to drink in Hell if you die as a disbeliever? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… But those who disbelieved will have a drink of boiling fluids and painful torment because they used to disbelieve.”

[Yoonus 10:5]

Do you know what you will have to wear on that Day? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… Then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads.”

[al-Hajj 22:19]

Do you know what kind of punishment you will endure?

“Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Signs, We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allaah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:56]

“If only those who disbelieved knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the Fire from their faces, nor from their backs; and they will not be helped.”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:39]

O reviler, maybe on the Day of Judgement you will wish that you had been a Muslim in this world. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Perhaps (often) will those who disbelieve wish that they were Muslims.”

[al-Hijr 15:2]

O disbeliever, you are among those who have disbelieved and done wrong. Allaah says concerning you and your like (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily those who disbelieve and do wrong, Allaah will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:168]

“Those who disbelieve and deny our signs are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.”

[al-Maa’idah 5:10]

There you will have no life, but neither will you be able to find any respite in death. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But those who disbelieve, for them will be the Fire of Hell. Neither will it have a complete killing effect on them so that they die, nor shall its torment be lightened for them. Thus do We requite every disbeliever!”

[Faatir 35:36]

O disbeliever, have the glad tidings of a punishment from which you will not be able to ransom yourself:

“Verily, those who disbelieve, if they had all that is in the earth, and as much again therewith to ransom themselves thereby from the torment on the Day of Resurrection, it would never be accepted of them, and theirs would be a painful torment.”

[al-Maa’idah 5:36]

O disbeliever, if you want to mock Islam and its followers, this is nothing new:

“Beautified is the life of this world for those who disbelieve, and they mock at those who believe. But those who obey Allaah’s Orders and keep away from what He has forbidden, will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allaah gives (of His bounty on the Day of Resurrection) to whom He wills without limit.”

[al-Baqarah 2:212]

O disbeliever, if you think that the light of Islam will be extinguished, then you are living in a world of illusions. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (the disbelievers) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate (it).”

[al-Tawbah 9:32]

O disbeliever, do you know that you are cursed if you do not submit to Allaah, so save yourself from this curse:

“Verily, Allaah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell).”

[al-Ahzaab 33:64]

There is still time for you to repent from sin and transgression, so long as you are still alive. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).”

[al-Anfaal 8:38]

Whoever is guided, then it is for his own benefit, and whoever disbelieves, then Allaah has no need of His creation. The curse of Allaah be upon the disbelievers.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

**barney** · 06-09-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

Muslims beleive that the Christian God IS the muslim God.
They beleive he didnt just spring into existance in 630AD.

**Trumble** · 06-09-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

I think the answer to that (and ditto, Jews) depends very much on whether you are a muslim or not!

Originally Posted by barney

Muslims beleive that the Christian God IS the muslim God.

As they both believe there is only one God surely they must, logically, believe in the same one?

**Joe98** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Malaikah;

This occurred before the human race was established on earth....

Obviously we don't remember this.

You think like an athiest.

-

**barney** · 06-10-2007

Oooh, its a long one with many twists and turns...but...

Muslims beleive that their God is the Christian and Jewish god, but he came to them (arabs) with a update, because the Jews had corrupted the "word"
The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Jews beleive their message is right, because they got it first. It tells them that they are special and the best.

Christians beleive that The Jewish god came down to earth and switched from a wrathful, burning God into a Peaceful all loving god, told everyone to love him and everyone else, then went back up....about the same time as his death....which saved mankind from his own wrath. It gets confusing.

that wraps it up.

**MustafaMc** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

**barney** · 06-10-2007

Unless Abraham, the first recorded guy to claim to speak with him, was mistaken. (or whatever)

**Pygoscelis** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by glo

Yes, you are right. That was an outrageous thing to do. Sacrificing yourself - although entirely innocent - for the sake of others, who jolly well deserve their punishment, is shockingly outrageous, and completely flies in the face of our human justice system.

The outrageous thing isn't that an innocent stepped forward to pay for what was deemed wrongdoing of others (so called sins), but that the judge would accept this and then let those others off free, not having to pay for their wrongdoing. It is just fundamentally wrong. And I would think that Christians can see this in any other setting - hence why we didn't allow it even in the Christian theocracies or the dark age quasi-theocracies.

To clarify from an earlier post, though (and not wanting to take this thread off-topic), whilst Jesus' sacrifice restored the relationship between humans and God it is not excuse for people to continue sinning.
It is not a get-out-of-jail-card, which lets you off the hook for every wrong you commit.
There is clear evidence in Jesus' teachings that we will be judged by our actions and deeds at the end of the day.

Sin has consequences.

Well either accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour can cleanse me of all sin, or I will still be held accountable for my sin. You can't logically have it both ways.

**barney** · 06-10-2007

I think the stock answer is Jesus knows in our hearts if we accept his teachings and try to live by them. So only if we reject his message of love will we be ripped eternally to small bitesized chunks.

**Balthasar21** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

If you have a Beginning , Then you have a Beginning ,
If you have a Ending , Then you have a Ending .

**glo** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Well either accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour can cleanse me of all sin, or I will still be held accountable for my sin. You can't logically have it both ways.

Through Jesus you can!

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

And later on, when the rich man walks away because is unwilling to comply with all Jesus demands:

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

The base line of Christian beliefs is that none of us are good enough to ever gain God's favour. Not the Pope, not Mother Teresa, not you or I ...
There is only One [namely God himself] who is good!

Yes, we strive to follow Jesus' teachings, but he knows as well as we know that that alone will never be good enough.
We will be accountable for our sins, but by the grace of God we can also be forgiven.
That's not to say that there won't be punishments or consequences. (I would have to delve a little deeper into scripture for that one. Certainly I will agree that Islamic teaching is a whole lot clearer and specific - sometimes extremely graphic - in terms of what sin demands what punishment, than the Bible is.)

Being pardoned for a wrong you have committed, when you are repentant and genuinely remorseful, is not such a rare thing in human history either - that concept is quite within the realm of human understanding ... and it still isn't fair in terms of justice.

Peace

**Pygoscelis** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by glo

Yes, we strive to follow Jesus' teachings, but he knows as well as we know that that alone will never be good enough.
We will be accountable for our sins, but by the grace of God we can also be forgiven.

You are just talking in circles now. This is where we started. You say that we are horrible creatures who are full of badness, which you call sin. You say that we deserve eternal punishment for that. Then you say that some innocent named Jesus was sent by God and he volunteers and is allowed to die for us, so that we are forgiven and not eternally tortured, as we deserve to be. And somehow this is considered just in this setting, whereas in any other it would be seen as fundamentally wrong.

Seriously, take this away from the religious setting and examine it wihtout that bias. It isn't moral at all.

Reread my first post on this. We've gotten nowhere.

**Umar001** · 06-10-2007

Howdy Barney,

Originally Posted by barney

Oooh, its a long one with many twists and turns...but...

Muslims beleive that their God is the Christian and Jewish god, but he came to them (arabs) with a update, because the Jews had corrupted the "word"
The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

Howdy Balthasar21,

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Ohhhhhhhhhh someone has let the cat out of the bag

Question ; Who was Waraqa Ibn Naufal ?

Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, was the cousin of Khadija, the wife of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

I now shall await the big suprise.

**Pygoscelis** · 06-10-2007

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Ricardo for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

**Umar001** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Richard for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

That's then assuming that Jesus did indeed volunteer.

**Pygoscelis** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

That's then assuming that Jesus did indeed volunteer.

Indeed.

You've pointed out yet ANOTHER wrinkle to the story.

This is somehow seen as GOOD and JUST... how do people do these mental contortions?

**duskiness** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Ricardo for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

Have you read "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel? He is also from Canada... (well, I know it doesn't mean that you read all books by Canadians...

) First of all, I think it is a good book (and funny) about belief and disbelief. At one point main hero - Pi (his father is a boss of zoo) sums up Christianity:

When I was fourteen years old -- and a well-contented Hindu -- when I met Jesus Christ on a holiday.

[Father Martin] served me tea and biscuits in a tea set that tinkled and rattled with every touch; he treated me like a grown-up; and he told me a story. Or rather, since Christians or so fond of capital letters, a Story.

And what a story. The first thing that drew me in was disbelief. What? Humanity sins but it's God's Son who pays the price? I tried to imagine father saying to me, "Piscine, a lion slipped into the llama pen today and killed two llamas. Yesterday another one killed a black buck. Last week two of them ate the camel. The week before it was painted storks and grey herons. And who's to say for sure who snacked on our golden agouti? The situation has become intolerable. Something must be done. I have decided that the only way the lions can atone for their sins is if I feed you to them."

"Yes, father, that would be the right and logical thing to do. Give me a moment to wash up."

"Halleluhah, my son."

"Hallelujay, father."

What a downright weird story. What peculiar psychology.

sounds almost like you!

But, further in the book Pi became Christians. There is another great part when he speaks why he does it, but I can't find it..and this part would be an answer to your post.

**Malaikah** · 06-10-2007

Is that the book about the guy with a tiger?

**duskiness** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Malaikah

Is that the book about the guy with a tiger?

exactly

Pi became also Muslim.

[The baker] was explaining to me how the bread baked on these heated pebbles when the nasal call of the muezzin wafted through the air from the mosque. I knew it was a call to prayer, but I didn't know what it entailed. I imagined it beckoned the Muslim faithful to the mosque, much like bells summoned us Christians to church. Not so. The baker interrupted himself mid-sentence and said, "Excuse me." He ducked into the next room for a minute and returned with a rolled-up carpet, which he unfurled on the floor of his bakery, throwing up a small storm of flour. And right there before me, in the midst of his workplace, he prayed. It was incongruous, but it was I who felt out of place. Luckily, he prayed with his eyes closed.

He stood straight. He muttered in Arabic. He brought his hands next to his ears, thumbs touching the lobes, looking as if he were straining to hear Allah replying. He bent forward. He stood straight again. He fell to his knees and brought his hands and forehead to the floor. He sat up. He fell forward again. He stood. He started the whole thing again.

Why, Islam is nothing but an easy sort of exercise, I thought. Hot-weather yoga for the Bedouins. Asanas without sweat, heaven without strain.

"What's your religion about?" I asked.

His eyes lit up. "It is about the Beloved," he replied.

I challenge anyone to understand Islam, its spirit, and not to love it. It is a beautiful religion of brotherhood and devotion.

The presence of God is the finest of rewards.

hope you like it

**Balthasar21** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Howdy Barney,

Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

Howdy Balthasar21,

Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, was the cousin of Khadija, the wife of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

I now shall await the big suprise.

How can it be a suprise if you already know the story ?

**glo** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

You are just talking in circles now. This is where we started. You say that we are horrible creatures who are full of badness, which you call sin. You say that we deserve eternal punishment for that. Then you say that some innocent named Jesus was sent by God and he volunteers and is allowed to die for us, so that we are forgiven and not eternally tortured, as we deserve to be. And somehow this is considered just in this setting, whereas in any other it would be seen as fundamentally wrong.

Seriously, take this away from the religious setting and examine it wihtout that bias. It isn't moral at all.

Reread my first post on this. We've gotten nowhere.

I know what you are saying, Pygoscelis. I am married to an atheist, and that's very much how he feels too ...
And yet, that's what I believe to be true, and it is the best way I can explain it ...

All I am left with is this Bible quote:

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
(1 Corinthians 1: 21-25)

To paraphrase a wise saying: To you your atheism, to me my religion.

Peace, friend.