Response to a stubborn disbeliever

**- Qatada -** · 08-19-2006

Question:

Did you know your religion was founded and developed by Catholics? I know Muhammad was your Christ, but let me tell you friend the God you know is not the God of Gods but the Devil of Devils.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

We do not wish to respond to slander in kind, but we will answer you, you disbeliever, with quotes from the Word of God (the Qur’aan), if you even believe in the existence of God.

O disbeliever, we debate with you in the words addressed by Allaah (the Arabic name of the One True God) to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and the disbelievers. He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary) was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word (‘Be!’ – and he was), which He bestowed on Maryam, and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One (God). Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of Affairs.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:171]

“Say: O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allaah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient [to Allaah])?”

[al-Maa’idah 5:59]

“How can you disbelieve in Allaah? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.”

[al-Baqarah 2:28]

“… whosoever disbelieves in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away…

Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His messengers and wish to make a distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, ‘We believe in some but not in others,’ and wish to adopt a way in between,

They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:136, 150-151]

O disbeliever, do you think that you can do any harm to Allaah by your disbelief? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… But if you disbelieve, then unto Allaah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, and Allaah is Ever Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:131]

You will only increase in hatefulness and loss in the sight of Allaah, you disbeliever, for you are one of the worst of living creatures, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the worst of moving (living) creatures before Allaah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.”

[al-Anfaal 8:55]

O disbeliever, are you not going to die? Or do you doubt that as well? Do you know what your position will be when you die, if you die in a state of disbelief? Listen:

“And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelief (at death), they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): ‘Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire.’”

[al-Anfaal 8:50]

O disbeliever, woe to you from what will happen to you on the Day of Resurrection! Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… so woe to the disbelievers from the meeting of a great Day (i.e., the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).”

[Maryam 19:37]

We have an appointment with you after death, on the Day of Reckoning:

“On that day those who disbelieved and disobeyed the Messenger [Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] will wish that they were buried in the earth, but they will never be able to hide a single fact from Allaah.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:42]

O disbeliever, do you know what Allaah has prepared for you if you die in a state of disbelief? Read:

“And whosoever does not believe in Allaah and His Messenger [Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)], then verily, We have prepared for the disbelievers a blazing Fire.”

[al-Fath 48:13]

“Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of Allaah and of the angels and mankind, combined.”

[al-Baqarah 2:161]

“Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from any one of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers.”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:91]

“Surely, those who reject Faith, neither their properties, nor their offspring will avail them aught against Allaah. They are the dwellers of the Fire, therein they will abide.”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:116]

Do you know what you will have to drink in Hell if you die as a disbeliever? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… But those who disbelieved will have a drink of boiling fluids and painful torment because they used to disbelieve.”

[Yoonus 10:5]

Do you know what you will have to wear on that Day? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… Then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads.”

[al-Hajj 22:19]

Do you know what kind of punishment you will endure?

“Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Signs, We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allaah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:56]

“If only those who disbelieved knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the Fire from their faces, nor from their backs; and they will not be helped.”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:39]

O reviler, maybe on the Day of Judgement you will wish that you had been a Muslim in this world. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Perhaps (often) will those who disbelieve wish that they were Muslims.”

[al-Hijr 15:2]

O disbeliever, you are among those who have disbelieved and done wrong. Allaah says concerning you and your like (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily those who disbelieve and do wrong, Allaah will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:168]

“Those who disbelieve and deny our signs are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.”

[al-Maa’idah 5:10]

There you will have no life, but neither will you be able to find any respite in death. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But those who disbelieve, for them will be the Fire of Hell. Neither will it have a complete killing effect on them so that they die, nor shall its torment be lightened for them. Thus do We requite every disbeliever!”

[Faatir 35:36]

O disbeliever, have the glad tidings of a punishment from which you will not be able to ransom yourself:

“Verily, those who disbelieve, if they had all that is in the earth, and as much again therewith to ransom themselves thereby from the torment on the Day of Resurrection, it would never be accepted of them, and theirs would be a painful torment.”

[al-Maa’idah 5:36]

O disbeliever, if you want to mock Islam and its followers, this is nothing new:

“Beautified is the life of this world for those who disbelieve, and they mock at those who believe. But those who obey Allaah’s Orders and keep away from what He has forbidden, will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allaah gives (of His bounty on the Day of Resurrection) to whom He wills without limit.”

[al-Baqarah 2:212]

O disbeliever, if you think that the light of Islam will be extinguished, then you are living in a world of illusions. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (the disbelievers) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate (it).”

[al-Tawbah 9:32]

O disbeliever, do you know that you are cursed if you do not submit to Allaah, so save yourself from this curse:

“Verily, Allaah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell).”

[al-Ahzaab 33:64]

There is still time for you to repent from sin and transgression, so long as you are still alive. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).”

[al-Anfaal 8:38]

Whoever is guided, then it is for his own benefit, and whoever disbelieves, then Allaah has no need of His creation. The curse of Allaah be upon the disbelievers.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

**Umar001** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

How can it be a suprise if you already know the story ?

Oh, I was under the impression that story was going to be expounded on by some.

Well at least its a nice day.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Indeed.

You've pointed out yet ANOTHER wrinkle to the story.

This is somehow seen as GOOD and JUST... how do people do these mental contortions?

Hmm, well if it was not for the fact that Jesus didnt seem to happy to die, if he had indeed wanted to and showed that, the story for me would have been somewhat more acceptable.

**duskiness** · 06-10-2007

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

The outrageous thing isn't that an innocent stepped forward to pay for what was deemed wrongdoing of others (so called sins), but that the judge would accept this and then let those others off free, not having to pay for their wrongdoing. It is just fundamentally wrong.

you said "pay" and you used word "judge". Do you know why? Because you are referring to some of atonement theories in Christian theology which operate with concept of "debt" (like satisfaction theory") or "penalty" (penal substitution). those are- probably- the most simple answers, we can give to question "what have happened on Golgotha?"
Maybe other theories would be more "palatable" for you? Like "Christus Victor", "moral infulence"....probably Grace Seeker would be much more qualified to speak here.
The point is, that there are more views on His death than the one you have presented. Non of them is "the right one". They all grasp part of truth. But as always truth is a bit bigger than any theory...
Overall, we simply believe that His life and death caused this world in its present form to pass away (slowly...)

**barney** · 06-11-2007

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Howdy Barney,

Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

[2.78] And there arc among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.

2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

[2.101] And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
2.121] Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers.[2.159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
[2.174] Surely those who conceal any part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement.

I cant carry on TBH, not enough time...too many verses deal with how the Koran is the word and the Jews corrupted it or diddnt listen.

**Umar001** · 06-11-2007

Originally Posted by barney

.....

What I mean is that, the reason said was that Islam came because the people before us corrupted their message, this implies that if they hadnt done so then Islam would not be here, this is what I find a lack of evidence for.

I acknowledge that Islam teaches the previous scriptures were changed but I have yet to see where it states 'this is why Islam was revealed'. If someone tells me that it's their assumption or a leap from the evidence to their view then thats fair enough.

**evangel** · 06-11-2007

Originally Posted by barney

The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Actually it's been quite a bit longer. You see, Abraham felt Sarah and he were getting a little old to have any children so, instead of waiting on the Lord to provide, he had relations with Sarah's servant and the result was Ishmail. After a bit, and in God's time, Sarah had Isaac, the promised son. After a bit again, Hagar (Ishmail's mom) wanted her son to have more of the birthright than what was in God's plan so Abraham made her leave with Ishmail. Ishmail's blessing was that He would be the patriarch of the Arab race. Of course we know Isaac was from where sprung the Hebrew race. Basically what we have here is an approximately 4000 year old family feud. Family feuds, if left to run with no reconciliation, get more contentious and bitter which is a pretty apt description of the middle east right now. Also it probably didn't help the way the son's (descendants) of Ishmail are described in the Old Testament, but I'll let you research that one, I've probably upset enough people already.

**Balthasar21** · 06-11-2007

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

According To Christianity Their God , Was Here 2,000 Years , Before The Muslims God Allah , Care to explain Where Was Allah AT .

**- Qatada -** · 06-11-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

According To Christianity Their God , Was Here 2,000 Years , Before The Muslims God Allah , Care to explain Where Was Allah AT .

According to Islaam, Allaah's always been and has never ceased to exist. He isn't limited to 2000years only.

Regards.

**- Qatada -** · 06-11-2007

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage.

I think that's explained in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And Allaah knows best.

I think i made a mistake there:

"And [remember] when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, [He asked]: "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we testify!" Lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Of this we were unaware."

(Quran, The Heights 7:172)

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemo...ne02_index.php

And i explained the concept of Fitrah [the natural disposition] here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/734266-post3.html

Allaah knows best.

**Balthasar21** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

According to Islaam, Allaah's always been and has never ceased to exist. He isn't limited to 2000years only.

Regards.

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

**MustafaMc** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

Such a foolish question that only the most wretched would ask.

**Balthasar21** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Such a foolish question that only the most wretched would ask.

Why do socall muslims resort to name calling and throwing temper tantrums , Instead of discussing the facts ?

**Malaikah** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

There is no date. Allah was not created, He has always existed and is outside the dimension of time. The concept of time is something created, and Allah is not created.

He is not bound by the things He creates.

**evangel** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Instead of discussing the facts ?

We live in the temporal. We have a certain amount of time in the day to spend doing what we need to do. We have a certain amount of time on the earth.
God created time (don't ask me why, God is God and I am not, maybe it was so wristwatches would have a purpose) but he is outside of it. To ask when did He punch in how do I answer, always, never. It would be like asking your parents when did you appear in my life when you were created in theirs.
Actually I believe He has given us dual citizenship; our flesh nature that resides in this world and our spiritual nature that resides in eternity.
Every person then is immortal, not the flesh nature, the spiritual, it is where we spend eternity that we each for ourselves will decide on. Like everything else in our life it is our choice.

**Balthasar21** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Malaikah

There is no date. Allah was not created, He has always existed and is outside the dimension of time. The concept of time is something created, and Allah is not created.

He is not bound by the things He creates.

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

**Umar001** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

**Balthasar21** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

No matter how you slice / dice it the christian God was here before the muslim God Allah . Now if I'm wrong show me in your Qur'aan word for word date for date , Chapter for chapter , Verse for verse , No '' Hadiyth '' Which are word of men that can't be back up with your Qur'aan . When did Allah came into existance . Are You Looking For Another Way To Closed Out Another Post Because You Can't Deal With Other Answer ?

**Balthasar21** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by evangel

We live in the temporal. We have a certain amount of time in the day to spend doing what we need to do. We have a certain amount of time on the earth.
God created time (don't ask me why, God is God and I am not, maybe it was so wristwatches would have a purpose) but he is outside of it. To ask when did He punch in how do I answer, always, never. It would be like asking your parents when did you appear in my life when you were created in theirs.
Actually I believe He has given us dual citizenship; our flesh nature that resides in this world and our spiritual nature that resides in eternity.
Every person then is immortal, not the flesh nature, the spiritual, it is where we spend eternity that we each for ourselves will decide on. Like everything else in our life it is our choice.

Overstand something if you can , I don't accept Sermon nor Testimony .

**noodles** · 06-12-2007

Balthasar, what I'm about to ask is not considered mocking nor name-calling as you put it.

What exactly is your purpose here?

In another thread you mentioned that you were here to learn, and people learn by asking questions. Yet when we present you with the Islamic belief on certain topics, you dismiss is as "Play on words" or the person being "trickster", or rather dismissing another person's answer altogether.

In regards to your Question about How Allah(swt) came into existence, sister Malaikah gave an understanding of the topic which is accepted by the Muslims, yet you reject it because it is not a "fact"

Perhaps you may ignore my post or you may not, I don't really know, but do know this, we've provided you with ample evidence(s?) and all of them went down the drain.

**Umar001** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

No matter how you slice / dice it the christian God was here before the muslim God Allah . Now if I'm wrong show me in your Qur'aan word for word date for date , Chapter for chapter , Verse for verse ,

You don't seem to have understood nor overstood.

I was saying that;

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

Instead of saying 1400 years after Christian God, which would mean the year, roughly 1397 CE, you mean 600 CE.

If I wanted to, as some might put it, 'school you' that'd be pretty easy, but I have no inclination towards that.

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

No '' Hadiyth '' Which are word of men that can't be back up with your Qur'aan .

This only shows your lack of knowledge, if you'd like to discuss the validity of Hadith in Islam then feel free to start a thread. Wonder why you would reject the words of Muhammad, a Messenger of God, yet belive him when he said the Qur'an is the word of God. Well that's if you believe the Qur'an is the word of God, you do right?

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Are You Looking For Another Way To Closed Out Another Post Because You Can't Deal With Other Answer ?

Just out of curiousity what post have I closed that you mention 'Another'? I'm getting on abit and I forget sometimes.

Regards,

Eesa

**Balthasar21** · 06-12-2007

Originally Posted by noodles

Balthasar, what I'm about to ask is not considered mocking nor name-calling as you put it.

What exactly is your purpose here?

In another thread you mentioned that you were here to learn, and people learn by asking questions. Yet when we present you with the Islamic belief on certain topics, you dismiss is as "Play on words" or the person being "trickster", or rather dismissing another person's answer altogether.

In regards to your Question about How Allah(swt) came into existence, sister Malaikah gave an understanding of the topic which is accepted by the Muslims, yet you reject it because it is not a "fact"

Perhaps you may ignore my post or you may not, I don't really know, but do know this, we've provided you with ample evidence(s?) and all of them went down the drain.

I said and I Quote ; Kayfa Haalaka
I'm new here looking forward to discussing / shareing knowledge and learning about diffrent belief / faith religion hopeing we can agree to disagree .

Your missing the part [ hopeing we can agree to disagree ] . Their are 82 diffrent sect of muslims all claiming they have the true word of Allah Yes . I have the Right To Reject / Accept / Agree / Disagree . As I have said before I don't claim to know everything , But I know what I know . If you or anyone think I should accept what your saying just because you believe or have faith in what your saying . Then your wrong ,

Discussion = Main Entry: dis·cus·sion
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'sk&-sh&n
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing

Main Entry: panel discussion
Function: noun
: a formal discussion by a panel

Debate = Main Entry: 1de·bate
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, de-
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

Main Entry: 2debate
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): de·bat·ed ; de·bat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French debatre, from Old French, from de- + batre to beat, from Latin battuere
intransitive senses
1 obsolete : FIGHT , CONTEND
2 a : to contend in words b : to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments
3 : to participate in a debate
transitive senses
1 a : to argue about b : to engage (an opponent) in debate
2 : to turn over in one's mind
synonym see DISCUSS
- de·bate·ment/-'bAt-m&nt/ noun
- de·bat·er noun

What you and a Few others here want is for people to tell you what you WANT / AGREE ..... To hear . And when this doesn't happen SOME here began to insult / name calling , And they 're allow to get away with it because they're muslims ,

Not one time in any of my post have I ask anyone to accept what I post . But other have told me what I'm posting is wrong , And what I should accept Hummmmmm hey it cool .