Jesus' Crucifixion

format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug

Could someone please explain to me how muslims view Jesus on the cross? I heard that muslims do not believe that it was indeed Jesus that died on the cross but I'm not sure how they reconcile that with all that the new testament says.

Thanks!:thankyou:

I am, of course, not the best person to answer this, but since nobody has tried so far, I will give it a go. If nothing else, it will bump this thread to the top, and perhaps bring it to the attention of a more knowledgeable person.

As far as my limited understanding goes, Muslims believe that through divine intervention it appeared to the eye witnesses that Jesus died on the cross - when in fact he was taken straight up to heaven.

BTW, I don't think Muslims strive to reconcile the Qu'ran with the New Testament. Discrepancies between Qu'ran and other holy books are explained with mistranslations and other changes made by humans.

peace.

Hi doodlebug.

Discussion with a Christian about the Crucifixion

Question:

Why is it so difficult for the Muslims to believe that Christ was crucified to erase our sins? Why do they reject the idea of the Crucifixion altogether?.


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.


There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”

[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.

It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.


There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.

They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?


Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?

They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?


Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?

At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?

What happened after the so-called crucifixion?


Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, “Truly this man was righteous.”

But John does not know anything about all that!


These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!


How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said in His Book which He has preserved (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:

“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”

Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)

Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.

We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah’s prediction that he would be saved from death:


On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:


“I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.”

John 7:33-34 – NIV



Elsewhere he says:

“Once more Jesus said to them, ‘I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.’

This made the Jews ask, ‘Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, “Where I go, you cannot come”?’

But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.’

‘Who are you?’ they asked.

‘Just what I have been claiming all along,’ Jesus replied. ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.’”

John 8:21-29 – NIV

Then at the end he tells them again:

“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”

Matthew 23:39 – NIV, also Luke 13:35

The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.

“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

John 16:32-33

Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):

“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads

and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’

In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.

‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’

In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.”

Matthew 27:39-44 – NIV

But it seems that Jesus’ certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):

“Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, ‘Sit here while I go over there and pray.’

He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

Then he said to them, ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.’

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’

Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.

…
He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.’

When he came back, he again found them sleeping, …

So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners’”

Matthew 26:36-45 – NIV

Luke describes the scene and says:

“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.

‘Why are you sleeping?’ he asked them. ‘Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.’”

Luke 22:44-46 – NIV

Because of this mockery of the message of Christ – according to their claims – and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God – exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:

“From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:38-47 – NIV

See also Mark 15:34

If we understand what this story means when subjected to criticism, the same will apply to the doctrine of redemption and sacrifice that is based on it.

With regard to the Christian doctrine of salvation, see also question no. 42573


And Allaah is the Source of strength and the guide to the Straight Path, and there is no Lord but He.


Islam Q&A


source: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...xt=crucifixion



Peace.

Hi Fi_Sabilillah

Don't tell me you wrote all that in the 8 minutes between my post and yours!

Thanks for your reply. I'm sure doodlebug will find it more informative that mine.

peace.

(Edited for typo)

format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy

It's interesting that you used a Jewish site. Jews agree that Jesus was crucified but deny him as a messiah. They consider him as a radical Jew.

As Muslims we believe somebody, who the Jews believed was I'sa, was crucified but that the person crucified was not I'sa.

format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug

Not that I know what I'm talking about.....but if I understand correctly, they think that Jesus was indeed sentenced and maybe even tortured but in the end, God disguised someone else as him so that we would think he was crucified.

Do I have that right? Actually it makes more sense that he disguised someone else as him before he was even tortured.

We do not know for certain at which point the change took place. I can see the logic that it would make sense for the change to have taken place before the torture. There is no actually verification as to who was crucified, except that it was not I'sa(a.s.). I've heard speculation that it may have been Judas.

I agree that God(swt) will not deceive us. So in my mind it must have been some condition in which the people actually deceived thenselves. I was not there so I can not say how God(swt) did this without it being deceit by him. I can only trust in Allah(swt) and if there is ever any reason I truly have a need to know I will learn it, Inshallah.

format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr

This puts me in mental recursion. How can a person deceive himself? One online dictionary says:

de·ceive Audio pronunciation of "deceive" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-sv)
v. de·ceived, de·ceiv·ing, de·ceives
v. tr.

1. To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.
2. Archaic. To catch by guile; ensnare.


v. intr.

1. To practice deceit.
2. To give a false impression: appearances can deceive.

de·cep·tion Audio pronunciation of "deception" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-spshn)
n.

1. The use of deceit.
2. The fact or state of being deceived.
3. A ruse; a trick.

In either case, if a person attempts to deceive themself, they must know what is true in order to intentionally depart from it. My head hurts!

Self deception does not have to be deliberate or something a person is aware of. On a physical level it happens quite frequently, it is not unusual for a person to feel touch, see or feel something and initialy perceive it as different then it actually is.

Mass hysteria is also a form of self deception. A good example is a group of people anticipating to see an UFO. Almost invariably a large percentage of the group will report seeing a UFO, even if nothing was there.

Now, getting back to my response you quoted. I do not know it that is what happened. I do know that God(swt) will not deceive us. So there must be some reason that could take place without it being deception. I do not know how. That was just my guess as to a possibility.

format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug

Ok so say God did deceive everyone by replacing Jesus with say, Judas.

How is it explained that the tomb was empty and that Jesus appeared before the 12 apostles on the third day?

How is it that the Gospels were not written until long after everybody credited in saying so was long Dead. And that all the earliest approved versions are in Greek, but except for Paul all of the Apostles spoke Aramaic.

Keep in mind as Muslims we believe the Gospels as they stand today are misinterpretations.

There are several gospels in Aramaic that were not approved by the Catholic Church. They give a different view as to what was written in Greek.

format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98

I cannot fathom why. There is no logic in calling it a misinterpretation.

The only logical reason for calling it a misinterpretation is to discredit it.

I do not believe the words are true. Yes the intent is to discredit it as being presented as fact. Not to discredit the people who believe the words to be true.

The men were witnesses to a series of events. Many years afterwards, the men, or their followers, wrote it down.

True there were witnesses, but the witnesses never wrote a single ord of what is now presented as their words

When Islam says it is a misinterpretation of what they witnessed, I say it makes Islam look bad.

The writings that are being presented are not the words of what the witnesses said.

If instead Islam said “yes it all happened that way” and then went on to say “afterwards

That is what we are saying. We are saying it happened as it is revealed in the Qur'an and then presented in the untrue manner. Which is why the Qur'an was revealed, to return exactly what was said and not the words who are saying what they believe was said,

g-d spoke to the prophet Mohammad” then Islam would sound authentic. Instead, its sounds like it is scared the Christians might be right.

Explain how that makes it sound like the Christians might be right.

Salam alaikum:

Actually, brother Woodrow is absolutely correct. NOTHING was written in the lifetime of Jesus, pbuh, and there are no records indicating Jesus, pbuh, asked for written documentation. Even if there had been, they have long since been lost or destroyed as absolutely nothing has been found that was written during His lifetime. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John....not ONE was alive at the time of Jesus, pbuh. Paul, however, was most certainly alive and spent that time killing and persecuting followers of Jesus, pbuh, and wanting nothing more than to see Jesus, pbuh, dead. The writers of these books are unknown, therefore not even the oral tradition can be traced back for authenticity.

Paul never met Jesus, pbuh, and even after his miraculous vision he didn't turn to the chosen Apostles to learn....he went into hiding for 3 years! It was much later before he even met with Peter and James. The true followers of Jesus, pbuh, never accepted Paul or his doctrine and many believe they were directly responsible for his death.

None of the Apostles were witnesses to a crucifixion, "They forsook Him and fled" (both Mark and Matthew confirm this). There are no eyewitness accounts at all. The Jews said they killed Him, the Apostles believed it. Why else would they be frightened when Jesus, pbuh, was to come to them later? They expected Him to be dead and thought He was a ghost. However, Jesus, pbuh, tells them He is not a spirit. He tells them a spirit does not have flesh like He does. He goes so far as to ask for food. A spirit doesn't have the need for food. So, obviously, He never died. He was very much alive. According to the bible when Jesus, pbuh, spoke with Mary at the entrance of the tomb and she was about to touch Him, He told her,
KJV: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Remember a spirit can't die twice. Luke, Mark, and Matthew all say, a resurrected body is like that of Angels. There is no need for food, water, etc. They become immortal. Jesus, pbuh, was not dead when He went to the disciples and told them exactly that.

Call it whatever you like, mistranslation, misquote or inaccuracy....the facts speak for themselves. If He died, as Christian doctrine suggests, why did He try to convince the disciples otherwise and why did He tell Mary Magdalen He wasn't dead? He was, however, very much alive as the Qur'an tells us and never died, but was taken up.

A Christian may not agree with our line of thinking, but for Muslims, there are plenty of reasons to question the accuracy of the Biblical account. How does this make Islam look bad? Unless you're saying it's wrong to question? If you never question, you never find truth.

Peace,
Hana